Look on the Adventure Path card.
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Look on the Adventure Path card.
This is frequently overlooked. It probably should go in the rulebook.
It's on the AP card and not in the rules because it isn't necessarily always going to be the same for all APs... it's already different for PFSACG APs.
This doesn't invalidate Elcoderdude's point, however.
On multiple occasions, I had to wonder why there' even an AP card. Yeah, it provides nice consistency, given we have Scenario and Adventure cards, but most player don't even bother placing the AP card on the table. The Basic/Elite removal rule just gets memorized with all the other rules like macking a check or resetting your hand, and nobody bothers looking twice. On the other hand the Basic/Elite removal is such an integral part by the PACG experience, that everyone that I know just treats it as a "core rule"; in fact, I foresee it being major inconvenience to seasoned players, if Paizo was to make a set *without* the removal rule, just because everyone is so used to it.
And as to the *possibly* different content on AP cards - Paizo is in fact already printing different versions of the Rulebook for each set. I can't see the harm in just adding a little "During this adventure path" text box in the rulebook proper, and update it as needed between sets (ideally, this would be in addition to the AP card, not a replacement).
I'm already seasoned in the game and, hey, those are *your* new players, so no skin off my teeth anyway, but just wanted to chime in my experience: the removal rule and its lack in the Rulebook is definitely one of the most confusing/overlooked by new players rule.
It's on the AP card and not in the rules because it isn't necessarily always going to be the same for all APs... it's already different for PFSACG APs.This doesn't invalidate Elcoderdude's point, however.
On multiple occasions, I had to wonder why there' even an AP card. Yeah, it provides nice consistency, given we have Scenario and Adventure cards, but most player don't even bother placing the AP card on the table. The Basic/Elite removal rule just gets memorized with all the other rules like macking a check or resetting your hand, and nobody bothers looking twice. On the other hand the Basic/Elite removal is such an integral part by the PACG experience, that everyone that I know just treats it as a "core rule"; in fact, I foresee it being major inconvenience to seasoned players, if Paizo was to make a set *without* the removal rule, just because everyone is so used to it.
And as to the *possibly* different content on AP cards - Paizo is in fact already printing different versions of the Rulebook for each set. I can't see the harm in just adding a little "During this adventure path" text box in the rulebook proper, and update it as needed between sets (ideally, this would be in addition to the AP card, not a replacement).
I'm already seasoned in the game and, hey, those are *your* new players, so no skin off my teeth anyway, but just wanted to chime in my experience: the removal rule and its lack in the Rulebook is definitely one of the most confusing/overlooked by new players rule.
The WotR AP card also has a rule that you ignore the Outsider trait on banes in locations with the Abyssal trait. Mummy's Mask may have a rule on the AP card as well that is unrelated to purging cards and that they don't want to apply when running the B adventure. Rules are put on the AP card, just like they're put on Adventure and Scenario cards; you should read them. The rulebook even tells you that rules appear there and you should follow them when doing that AP/Adventure/Scenario.
Even though there are different printing of the rulebook for each adventure path, Paizo considers the "rules" one distinct thing. Which means that, other than the change in terminology from RotR to S&S, you should be able to take the latest rulebook and apply the rules to all previous adventure paths.
This is a question I'd consider frequently asked; it's one I've seen multiple times and one whose location I've forgotten before. Adding it to the FAQs would be a good start, but I'd also consider including a note in the setup section or in the "frequently forgotten" rules section of the main rulebook that reminds you to check the Adventure Path info and/or the Guild rulebook when setting up the game to see if you need to add or remove cards.
Look on the Adventure Path card.This is frequently overlooked. It probably should go in the rulebook.
This. Yes.
There is no reason to look at that Adventure Path card other than the first time when you don't know what it all means and later assumed it was just "flavor text". Then you are never told to look at it again in a clear way. I only knew about removing basic and elite cards later from reading about it on a message board. Really, Rise of the Runelords IS the game AND the story so it would really have helped me see that rule if it was in the rule book.
I might feel differently IF RotR was just a base set with a whole bunch of official Adventure Paths for sale in an "Adventure path add-on pack" [yea!], but since there is only one Adventure Path, it seems like a big rule like this for the only Adventure Path should be written more clearly...
Look on the Adventure Path card.This is frequently overlooked. It probably should go in the rulebook.This. Yes.
There is no reason to look at that Adventure Path card other than the first time when you don't know what it all means and later assumed it was just "flavor text". Then you are never told to look at it again in a clear way. I only knew about removing basic and elite cards later from reading about it on a message board. Really, Rise of the Runelords IS the game AND the story so it would really have helped me see that rule if it was in the rule book.
I might feel differently IF RotR was just a base set with a whole bunch of official Adventure Paths for sale in an "Adventure path add-on pack" [yea!], but since there is only one Adventure Path, it seems like a big rule like this for the only Adventure Path should be written more clearly...
Season of the Runelords is starting up momentarily, and is a second AP for the RotR base set. It will be available for purchase here in the coming months, and uses different rules for purging basics/elites than the standard Rise of the Runelords AP. Homebrew adventures (such as Shield of Rannick) may also want different rules for it, which isn't easily accomplished if it is in the rulebook.
I agree that a note in the rulebook reminding people to actually read the AP card could be nice, but I find your reason for ignoring it rather disingenuous. I highly doubt people will read it and say "oh that's unimportant flavor text that I don't need to care about." I can see people reading and then forgetting about it or never bother reading it to begin with, and a reminder in the rulebook can help to some extent, but you should really be reading the AP card until you have what it says down pat because it may have additional rules that apply beyond just purging cards that you need to know during gameplay.
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I agree that a note in the rulebook reminding people to actually read the AP card could be nice, but I find your reason for ignoring it rather disingenuous. I highly doubt people will read it and say "oh that's unimportant flavor text that I don't need to care about." I can see people reading and then forgetting about it or never bother reading it to begin with, and a reminder in the rulebook can help to some extent, but you should really be reading the AP card until you have what it says down pat because it may have additional rules that apply beyond just purging cards that you need to know during gameplay.
Well, sure, I should read everything each time, but:
1. As of right now and the last 2 years, there is still only one official adventure path, so putting that rule in the book still seems like an oversight to me.
2. It took me (a brand new player to this game) a few character deaths and play throughs of the first couple of adventures to really get going in the game, which meant that the rule of removing cards in Adventure Path 3 didn't come into play for almost 4 or 5 months anyway, meaning I wouldn't remember that rule for that long. I regularly reread the rules to see what things I was missing as I went through the first few months of playing (and even now...) but never thought to look at the Adventure Path Card again.
3. I don't mean the first time people read it they assume its flavor text, I mean the first time you read it as you unbox everything, its words don't mean anything to you since you've never played the game before. I really doubt that all new players (or anyone, really) get out their Adventure Path card, place it dutifully next to the Adventure Card and place that next to the Scenario card each time they play a game. I check the Adventure card, find the next Scenario and just get out the Scenario card while I play.
At the least, a little extra note in the rulebook would have been helpful:
"NOTE: remember that the Adventure Path Card can have extra rules for that Adventure Path. For example, during the Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path, you will banish boons with the Basic (and later Elite) traits as the adventure progresses"
I would IMHO agree that, for new players:
1) You do not reread the AP card at every game... so by the time you reach AD3 you certainly have forgotten it.
2) When you see "Elite" on a card you get to wonder what it is about, read the whole rulebook and become upset not to find anything.
3) When you read "Basic", chances are you think it's only relevant for starting characters.
So I would see no harm in putting on the rulebook a little paragraph saying something like:
"Basic and Elite traits: those traits may be used differently in the different PACG adventure games. Usually to govern when cards are removed from the game. Please check your adventure card."
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None of the traits are used in the rulebook except Basic for deckbuilding, so if you're going to add those to rulebook, add everything else that has a typical power or effect associated with it
Veteran
Firearm
2-Handed (usage with armor)
Corrupte
Undead
And more...
There'd be a lot of traits to list.
There's nothing that makes these traits any different from the rest. It's just a different card where you find what to do with them, and even that's just for now.
I'm really not seeing any reasons to put it in the rulebook beyond players choosing not to read their cards more than once. I can't see how it's too hard to remember "Hey, at some point my AP card matters, I should check it periodically to see if it's coming up"
None of the traits are used in the rulebook except Basic for deckbuilding, so if you're going to add those to rulebook, add everything else that has a typical power or effect associated with it
Veteran
Firearm
2-Handed (usage with armor)
Corrupte
Undead
And more......
I'm really not seeing any reasons to put it in the rulebook beyond players choosing not to read their cards more than once. I can't see how it's too hard to remember "Hey, at some point my AP card matters, I should check it periodically to see if it's coming up"
First, you very well know that Traits are more like "triggers" for other powers, they don't usually have any particular power or effect in themselves. This is essentially the same with Basic/Elite, the difference being that B/E are used in very limited set of circumstances - card removal, determining some Scenario rewards, and only occasionally by something like Ekkie's bonus die power. Usually you'll need to check if a given card has the Trait X only after playing/encountering another power or card, which will expressly tell you what to do if Trait X is present or not. There's nothing that makes you check the AP card during normal play, however, so it's easy to forget it has an effect relevant to that Giant Gecko you've just beaten.
My point being, the 'removal rule' can easily be presented alongside the core rules for memorization, and it in no way creates the obligation to list all the other Traits (I can't see why you'd even think that).
How often do you think a player is supposed to check their AP card, if (S&S and RotR) for the first THREE ADVENTURES it has no effect whatsoever? By the time this card actually matters, I think it's pretty natural that a lot of people have even forgotten its existence.
As I said, I have no horse in this race, but I fail to see why you would be against something that may help some players and in now way harms your experience? How often players read their AP card or if they remember it is an objective truth, and it doesn't matter if you think it shouldn't be hard or it should happen more often.
...so if you're going to add those to rulebook, add everything else that has a typical power or effect associated with it...
I see your point Andrew but if you allow me I would argue that in my experience the other traits don't raise issue, either because the card itself explains the trait (Veteran...) or because they are obvious description of the card in hand (yes that's a two-handed weapon, or a gun, or an undead...) or because you quite rapidly in the game find a power that relates to it. And if you don't there is no impact.
For example in RoR if I remember well, some boons had craft as trait, where there was no impact on the game (no power relating to craft). That was OK, most players just thought "that's OK, that's for future extension maybe".
Pb with Elite is that you are led to think the same... and forget to remove them from the game.
So the rules do not have to present all traits... only those whose effect we know will be forgotten.
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First, you very well know that Traits are more like "triggers" for other powers, they don't usually have any particular power or effect in themselves.
Yes I do, and that's exactly my point. Basic / elite are just triggers too. The only difference is when and how the traits are used, and that difference exists between literally every single trait. There is nothing special about B/E.
My point being, the 'removal rule' can easily be presented alongside the core rules for memorization
The problem with that is, we don't know that will always be a rule. If they did, it would have been in the book from the start, but it's on the card because it isn't a hard rule. It's not a PACG rule, it's a RotR rule, it's a Shackles rule, it's a Wrath rule.
and it in no way creates the obligation to list all the other Traits (I can't see why you'd even think that).
Basic and Elite have nothing special about them that sets them apart from other traits. They are traits that have cards that give them something to do, just like 99% of the other traits. Only adding a rule that isn't even a global rule for those two is completely arbitrary. There's no reason not to add all other traits that have a typical rule (like Veteran and Undead) if you're going to add Basic and Elite.
How often do you think a player is supposed to check their AP card, if (S&S and RotR) for the first THREE ADVENTURES it has no effect whatsoever? By the time this card actually matters, I think it's pretty natural that a lot of people have even forgotten its existence.
To start, every time they start a new path. That's a given, because you have things like Wrath that do more than card removal. When you see what it does, any player should be saying "Well, I don't recognize that, I should check what it means". They see they change the rules a little at the start of a specific adventure. After that, I'd say it's completely reasonable to expect them to, if they can't remember when on their own, to at least remember to check at the start of each adventure.
As I said, I have no horse in this race, but I fail to see why you would be against something that may help some players and in now way harms your experience? How often players read their AP card or if they remember it is an objective truth, and it doesn't matter if you think it shouldn't be hard or it should happen more often.
Because what is being suggested is to add a rule that isn't even a rule. There is no rule that says "In PACG, remove these cards at X point." It'd be like me suggesting we add to the rulebook that Veteran adds the adventure number to the check. It's not a rule of PACG, it's an effect some parts of the game have.
So the rules do not have to present all traits... only those whose effect we know will be forgotten.
I couldn't agree more. And if we ever have a trait that has an effect attached to it, it should be in the rulebook. For example, Basic with deck building. Other than that one instance, we have no traits like that, including Basic and Elite.
Even though there are different printing of the rulebook for each adventure path, Paizo considers the "rules" one distinct thing. Which means that, other than the change in terminology from RotR to S&S, you should be able to take the latest rulebook and apply the rules to all previous adventure paths.
While that is the intent, it is not true in practice. I cannot take the current rulebook (from WotR) and use that to play S&S, since it does not have the rules for Ships & Loot in it. Those are only in the S&S rulebook, not the S&S adventure card (of course they wouldn't fit there). I'll be surprised if the rules for Mythic Paths & redeeming cards in the next set.
Having said that, I don't think this is a real issue. Yes, it is possible to miss this, but if you are missing this text on the card, you probably aren't going to look for it in the manual once you start deck 3. By that point you've finished 10-15 scenarios (or more if you've died/failed and replayed) and have a pretty good grasp on the rules.
Plus it's a good lesson to always read the cards. Otherwise, you might miss things on the Adventure Card like all locations being Abyssal at certain points in WotR or things on the Path card like Outsiders not being Outsiders at locations that have the Abyssal trait.
I can't honestly say I'd be less likely to miss something because it was in the rulebook instead of the adventure path. Both could be described as something you read once, don't entirely understand at the time and only refer to again when prompted.
One compromise might be if the rulebook included some discussion and clarification on how "removing from the box" works. That way it's not stepping on the adventure path cards' toes in terms of responsibilities, but it still reminds people (directly or indirectly) that this is a thing which might happen.
Removing from the box might seem not complicated enough to be able to even write a meaningful explanation of it, but I have had various issues with it. What if I remove a card entirely then later realise it's the last copy and I want to fill an empty deck slot with it? Is it technically "too bad, you screwed up and now cures don't exist in your universe"? I also have multiple characters which generally play in separate parties, which the existing rules handle amazingly well, except when it comes to loot rewards and removed from the box cards if the parties get far enough out of synch to cross adventures. So there are things the rulebook could talk about.
Chief Technical Officer
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What if I remove a card entirely then later realise it's the last copy and I want to fill an empty deck slot with it? Is it technically "too bad, you screwed up and now cures don't exist in your universe"?
This is the sort of thing we really don't want to dictate to players—another of those "social contract" issues where you need to decide what suits your group's play style best.
That said, if you *really* want the rulebook to answer to that question for you, see the "Choices Matter" section of "Things to Keep in Mind."
And if we ever have a trait that has an effect attached to it, it should be in the rulebook. For example, Basic with deck building. Other than that one instance, we have no traits like that, including Basic and Elite.
Just because I love pointing out trivia, I'll mention that there is one other trait with rules attached that aren't on the cards: Mythic. (When you defeat a bane that has the Mythic trait, gain a mythic charge.)
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And if we ever have a trait that has an effect attached to it, it should be in the rulebook. For example, Basic with deck building. Other than that one instance, we have no traits like that, including Basic and Elite.Just because I love pointing out trivia, I'll mention that there is one other trait with rules attached that aren't on the cards: Mythic. (When you defeat a bane that has the Mythic trait, gain a mythic charge.)
Point