Once again, I seem to have latched onto a character concept that sounds fun in theory, but isn't working out so great in practice. The wonky concept du jour is the Scholar, from Tripod Games.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/scholar
I definitely think a non-magical INT class sounds like fun, as does a combat sage who runs into battle with a pair of maces and smarts their way through the fight. Early game, there's a lot of fun stuff. Smart Weapon and Smart Defense let you use your INT for attack rolls and AC, Lookout lets you give Evasion to your teammates, In The Bag lets you grab items faster, etc etc.
But, around level 10 or so, things start getting a little "meh," for one simple reason: the Advanced Scholar Secrets suck. There just isn't anything here that is going to keep a high-level Scholar relevant while the spellcasters are still getting better and better spells, rogues are getting tons of sneak attack dice.... even the fighter is at least getting combat feats.
I still do want to make a Scholar for play in the homegame I've been doing the last couple weeks (the GM is encouraging us to try out some characters before we commit to one) but I'm wondering what to do in the mid-to-high level game. I'm tossing around ideas like Dark Delvar and Sleepless Detxtive prestige classes, or switching to Fighter or some kind of homebrewed INT-based Bard at the halfway point.... but nothing is really jumping out at me. (also it looks like there isn't any kind of INT Bard archetype or 3rd party class available to just grab, so that would mean a lot of self-constructing stuff. not the ideal plan for a newcomer, I assume)
Any advice would be appreciated.
So you'd be looking at taking 8 levels or so in Scholar? Erudition looks nice to have at 7th, then you might as well take level 8 in it.
Path of War classes (on the d20pfsrd) get one initiator level per 2 levels of non-initiator classes, so taking one level in one of them (probably Warder) at that point gives you access to 3rd level maneuvers immediately. You could then continue with that class or go into one of the Path of War PrCs, perhaps Mage Hunter.
If the main thing you're looking for is a mundane int-class the Lore Warden Fighter is quite strong.
Lore Warden fits well enough. Losing the armor proficiencies makes no difference to a scholar, and the abilities are a nice bonus. The question is, would it be a tactically strange idea to start taking Fighter levels at 9th?.... I guess it wouldn't be as much of a loss as starting a spellcaster class. I don't know, I'm still new at this. It's hard for me to figure things out at a glance.
On that same note, I'll still need a little while to really get a handle on the Path of War stuff. I'm too busy right now to fully look it over, and a quick glance revealed absolutely nothing, good or bad, to my novice eyes. :P
So what I wound up doing was transforming Scholar into an Unchained Rogue archetype. It was easier then I thought, there's a lot of overlap between the two. It didn't take long to eschew the lousy ones and figure out what the remaining ones should replace. In summary: Sneak Attack and Rogue's Edge come back, Smart Defense is gone cause 22 AC Rogues is bs, Smart Weapon becomes a core feature replacing Finesse Training and affects damage as well, and replace additional Finesse Trainings with some Scholar abilities. I leave it here for anyone to use as they see fit. (also ask your GM if you can use the Scholar Secrets from the actual class, but don't worry too much. Most of them suck, especially the Advanced ones.)
-----------
A scholar may choose any non-secret languages as bonus languages.
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + INT modifier
-Lore
At 1st level, a scholar adds all Knowledge skills to her class skill list. In addition, a scholar adds half her class level (minimum +1) to all Knowledge checks and may make all Knowledge checks untrained.
This replaces Trapfinding
-Smart Weapon
At 1st level, the scholar can use her Int bonus instead of her Str or Dex bonus to hit with any light or one-handed weapon or any crossbow. In addition, starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Smart Weapon (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Intelligence modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll.
This replaces Finesse Training 1 and 2.
-Lore Master
At 4th level, the scholar becomes a master of lore and can take 10 on any Knowledge check that she has ranks in. A scholar can choose not to take 10 and can instead roll normally. In addition, once per day, the scholar can take 20 on any Knowledge check as a standard action. She can use this ability twice at 11th level and three times at 17th level.
This replaces Debilitating Injury, and Finesse Training 3.
-True Lore
At 19th level, a scholar's knowledge becomes vast indeed. Once per day a scholar can use her knowledge to gain the effects of a legend lore spell or an analyze dweomer spell. If used to create a legend lore effect, this ability has a casting time of 1 minute, regardless of how much information is already known about the subject in question.
This replaces Finesse Training 4.
No offense but I feel like you want to make a class who's not exactly a martial into a martial.
The basic Scholar chassis is kind of like a Rogue/Fighter with more leanings towards being a skill monkey. With any combat feat, and later any feat as an option for it's Scholar Secrets it potentially has almost as many bonus feats as a fighter, but without a real innate it is as about accurate as a rogue in combat but has the ability to consolidate most of his skills into INT so can survive but is ultimately a skill monkey first, and as a support class/skillmonkey it fits the bill pretty well. If you want to change it I would say that lifting abilities from the Investigator would be more appropriate, maybe even giving it access to Luck from the Sleuth archetype.
But, around level 10 or so, things start getting a little "meh," for one simple reason: the Advanced Scholar Secrets suck. There just isn't anything here that is going to keep a high-level Scholar relevant while the spellcasters are still getting better and better spells, rogues are getting tons of sneak attack dice.... even the fighter is at least getting combat feats.
The scholar is, by design, not a hard hitter. They are more of a support class and generalist, like a bard. A high level scholar is expected to become powerful in the following ways:
- by developing a ginormous Intelligence score and leveraging it for multiple applications
- by excelling in skill use, much like a rogue
- by combining abilities in ways that build on each other
- by being a team player
- by being able to perform, in a secondary way, roles that might otherwise be missing in a non-traditional party
So, for instance, one version of a scholar might use smart weapon with a repeating crossbow and creature focus to direct attacks, while depending on her animal companion for protection and damage output. A scholar might use only mostly dead to fill in for a party cleric. Another might use sneak attack and disruptive to become an expert flanker. It is my expectation that any high level scholar in a fairly standard campaign will make heavy use of Use Magic Device. In a non-standard campaign with less high magic, I would expect the scholar to simply rock socks.
Also note that a scholar with Improved Martial Strike (also in Fistful of Denarii) is a fine fill-in for a core monk.
All that said, the scholar has not been revised in a long time. Their skill bonuses should be brought in line with the unchained rogue, there ought to be more advanced secrets (including a further advancement of sneak attack), and I would like to add access to things like alchemy, tactician, and so forth. The scholar was developed independently of the investigator and the cogitator (Anachronistic Adventures by RGG) and covers similar ground, but in a different way.
The main point of the scholar is to have fun, while being useful. The concept of an Intelligence-based character who is not a wizard, or a skill monkey who is not a rogue or a bard, is not strongly supported in the core rules. The character is intended to work more like Indiana Jones, or Chaucer in A Knight's Tale, or a Merlin type in one of the more sedate adaptations of the Arthurian stories. Even the loremaster PrC is aimed at spellcasters. The scholar does not, and was never intended to, produce big numbers, or to stand in for a full-caster. However, it is not an "NPC class;" its advantages and bonuses are in line with any other support character. Further, most of the abilities can be used repeatedly, without limit.
My big problem with the Scholar as it stands is this: I can get an extremely big advantage by taking two levels in Scholar to grab Smart Defense and Smart Weapon, then take 18 levels in something else. Rogue, Fighter and Wizard all come to mind very easily. If I'm mostly just a skill monkey, I'd be a BETTER skill monkey by taking Rogue levels and getting 13 skill points instead of 11, and I'd be better at fighting too since I'm actually getting Sneak Attack! Or I could be a Fighter with 20 INT and an AC as high as 29 if I use a Tower shield or 27 if I use a heavy, or a Wizard with a touch AC of 19 and +6 to hit with a crossbow. Playing as a level 20 Scholar is just functionally inferior to these options. The two best abilities show up level 1 and level 2, and then it gets worse and worse over time. Pull up the list of Rogue abilities and Scholar abilities for comparison sometime. Eliminate all the overlap - Evasion, Scholar Secrets/Rogue Talents etc - and it's painfully obviously that the Rogue is just getting MORE stuff, and GOOD stuff too.
As for the team player abilities? Most of them are inferior to existing abilities. The main ones that seems like they do something new and exciting are Lookout and Call it Out. Everything else, you're trying to do someone else's job, but you aren't good at it. I can see a Scholar MAYBE making a big difference in a no-magic game, by virtue of all those nonmagical healing skills, but outside of that, it just looks functionally inferior to everything in the core rulebook. The party I'm playing with already has a Fighter, a Ninja, an arcane caster and a divine caster. (I forget which of each.) If I was planning on being purely supplemental to them? I'd be much better as a Bard.
I guess I'm "not getting it." I am a new player. I've been playing for something like 6 months. This is the fourth character I've ever made. There's going to be a lot that I "don't get" for quite some time, I expect.
My big problem with the Scholar as it stands is this: I can get an extremely big advantage by taking two levels in Scholar to grab Smart Defense and Smart Weapon, then take 18 levels in something else.
That is certainly a valid approach. Two levels of scholar might justify delaying 9th level spells for two levels, or armor training, or advanced rogue talents. And you might leverage a half-elf's multitalented ability. And that's ... fine by me. Lots of classes provide good multiclassing bonuses and I'm pleased to say the scholar is one of them. Now, if you're going wizard, you might want to go with spell-casting dilettante over smart weapon, but that's just a minor suggestion.
Pull up the list of Rogue abilities and Scholar abilities for comparison sometime.
If you make the comparison yourself, some similarities might jump out at you. I'm just sayin'.
Okay, the higher level abilities don't fire you up. And that's fine. Not everyone is going to love the same play styles.If you are not interesting in doing the things the scholar is good at, then you are probably going to have more fun playing something else.
Now, if want some help building a 20th level scholar, just say what you are trying to do. If the answer is "lots of sneak attack damage" then rogue is probably a better choice. But if you are just looking for strategies, I could offer some tips. I know there are other people on the boards very familiar with the class, as well.
Like, the double mace wielding sage thing... to me that doesn't sound much like a scholar. But maybe I'm missing some of the things you want to do. Are you interested in dirty tricks and other maneuvers? Are there skill uses you are interested in, like Diplomacy or Stealth? Do you like the support role, or are you thinking more along the lines of a canny duelist?
Like I said, I'm still pretty new at this, so I don't know the game well enough to really answer that sort of question with confidence. This much I know: a class called "Scholar" really jumps out at me. A class that uses their INT bonus in combat, that jumps out at me. The Call it Out ability, using your Knowledge ranks in battle for powerful effect, that jumps out at me.
Past that, I'm still inexperienced enough that I fall back on classes to flesh my character concepts out, and I don't think you can fault me for looking at the scholar and getting it into my head that this is a lot like a rogue, sans Sneak Attack. I definitely like the concept of someone studious and learned winding up with a similar skillset to that of an impoverished sneak, though I'm not certain that's "what I'm going for." I'd really be satisfied landing anywhere in the ballpark of "someone with a very high INT stat who doesn't use magic much and isn't a complete waste of space in a fight."
Most of the Scholar Secrets.... they just look like they're grabbing minor class features from 8 of the 10 core classes. Barbarian fast movement, turn undead, cantrips and detect magic, 1d6 sneak attack dice, a minor animal companion...... but, I'm not really interested in playing someone who's even more of a jack-of-trades then a Bard, and I certainly don't think half of these are worth a scholar secret. The Advanced Scholar Secrets are especially like this. One-a-day Resurrection is a relatively minor part of the Cleric or Druid class. They do a lot of other things, and taking that one piece of it isn't a great advantage, unless you're in some kind of highly unusual situation and you know it.
About the only way I can see a Scholar being very useful past level 10 is either in a very small party, like 2 or 3 adventurers, or in a campaign where magic is rare and valuable but not banned. Something where you can't play a major spellcaster, but you're still allowed to use supernatural and spell-like abilities.
Jack-of-all-trades is one approach, but the overall philosophy is to be customizable. Let's say you want to be a tough, mace-wielding scholar. Rather than focusing on advanced secrets, I would just go deep on the basic list of secrets. There are plenty of them. So, one way would be to do this:
2 smart weapon
4 exploit weakness
6 call it out
8 creature mythology
10 fast movement
12 animal companion
14 sneak attack
16 spellbreaker
So, assuming you started with a 17 int, took three increases in it 20, and have at least a +4 enhancement bonus, you have an Intelligence of 24 with a modifier of +7. Assuming you took Weapon Focus (heavy mace), your attack bonus with a heavy mace is:
base +12 +7 (int) + 1 = +20
and against your designated opponent, you gain a +7 insight bonus for a total of +27. Even with a non-magical weapon, you would need to roll a 4 to hit a typical monster (AC 31) with a CR equal to your level. With a suitable weapon for your level, you would miss only on a 1.
Even without your insight bonus, you can use call it out for an additional +1 or 2 to hit, raising your bonus to +22 or so without your enhancement bonus. Assuming a +3 weapon, that brings you up to +25, requiring a 6 to hit most opponents. If you are able to close, most spellcasters and monsters are going to be almost hopeless to cast in your vicinity, as you repeatedly ready an action to step and attack when they cast a spell. Meanwhile, your animal companion tiger or wolf is biting them and interfering with their movement. You are able to flank with your pet to gain your sneak attack bonus reliably.
Not a terrible setup I suppose. I still don't know about some of those abilities. Creature Mythology, Fast Movement, Sneak Attack 1d6, Spellbreaker..... aren't these pretty situational things? And anyway, I stand by what I said earlier: it would be superior to take 2 levels of Scholar then 18 of Rogue or 18 of Fighter. I don't consider myself much of a minmaxer, but even I can see that there's a vast gulf between this and that. The other players in my group are all veterans who've been playing this game for 5 years minimum, I don't want to be showing up with a character that's terribly below average.
Not a terrible setup I suppose. I still don't know about some of those abilities. Creature Mythology, Fast Movement, Sneak Attack 1d6, Spellbreaker..... aren't these pretty situational things?
I'm going to go with no. Creature mythology, by the time your bonus to Knowledge checks is decent, is basically like giving stackable Spell Penetration to your whole party. Fast movement is always useful. Sneak attack 1d6 is fairly close to +1d6 damage most of the time if you have an animal companion. Spellbreaker is more niche, but there are spellcasting monsters.
And anyway, I stand by what I said earlier: it would be superior to take 2 levels of Scholar then 18 of Rogue or 18 of Fighter. I don't consider myself much of a minmaxer, but even I can see that there's a vast gulf between this and that. The other players in my group are all veterans who've been playing this game for 5 years minimum, I don't want to be showing up with a character that's terribly below average.
In some respects, sure. But you won't get fast movement or an animal companion or exploit weakness. Your rogue will have a good sneak attack, but no insight bonus to hit or call it out. Your fighter will have vastly lower skill ranks and virtually nothing that grants a boost to allies. There are trade-offs. Maybe there is a "vast gulf" but honestly having an animal companion, whether a mount or a a flying scout, is very handy and rogues and fighters don't get those.
Numerically, the scholar basically splits the difference between the rogue and the fighter; more accurate than the rogue, but less base damage than the fighter. Your AC is going to be very solid. I think the scholar's level 20 ability is at least comparable to the rogue and fighter's.
If you want to be a "smart fighter," have you looked at the slayer?
Sorry for leaving this open-ended for so long. Quick rundown of the last couple weeks: I brought my homemade "archetype" attempt to the game club, they politely but decisively tore me a new one and let me know that I was building something that made no sense. Ultimately, I realized that I have a lot to learn before I try doing something like this. I'm not "giving up," but I'm putting this on hold until I get more experience with other classes. I've only ever played a low-level Wizard and a low-level Cleric for a few games each. I should have known better then to try and mess around with nonmagical classes at all, much less build an entire class/archetype, even with an existing 3rd party class as a guideline.
I think a big part of the problem here was that we've been talking past each other, not really communicating on the same level. You know the game a lot better then I do, so.... I guess I don't really understand what's being said at all here. Credit to Grady for at least taking me seriously though, thank you so much. Sorry if I completely made no sense at any point, which may well have been the case.
For now, I've made a Bard for the home game and a Fighter for Society. I'll keep building basic characters until I've got a handle on how things work. THEN I'll try homebrewing/tweaking stuff in any meaningful way.
I get the sense you know what you want, you just don't see it in front of you. And that's fine; that's how a lot of good ideas get their start.
But an Int-based non-magical class is a challenging concept, no doubt.