So, I have just recently gotten into pathfinder, having played a grand total of two games, both of them Pathfinder Society games. I've never really played any real RPG before this, though I have played a lot of video game versions (e.g. Neverwinter Nights / Icewind Dale), so I know the basic mechanics.
I have a character build planned, and I think it could be fun, but it requires a few different classes and I want to make sure I am not mechanically nerfing myself in trying to pull this off.
Basic story is that my character is a human named Henric who was raised in a family of magic users. He was trained in the arcane from a young age, and so starts out at level 1 as a diviner wizard with the Magical Knack trait. On transitioning to level 2, the story will go that he encountered a representative of Cayden Cailean during his travels, and had a bit of a religious awakening. In particular, the tenants of being free to choose your own path in life spoke to him, who was set down the path of a wizard sort of by default by his family. This gave him the courage to leave off the wizarding profession in favor of being an Inquisitor for Cayden Cailean, fully exploring his love of archery and adventure.
Mechanically, I have him starting as a diviner wizard, then at level 2 switching to a Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor. His animal companion is an ape with the Bodyguard archetype. One of the things I liked about this setup is the ability at level 4 to *always* have a full round action in any surprise round ever, since as a diviner he always acts in the surprise round, and his ape as a bodyguard always acts in the surprise round, and as a sacred huntsmaster he shares his teamwork feats with his animal companion. Take Lookout, and as long as they always walk side-by-side, they both always take a full round action in any surprise round.
One of the drawbacks of a one-level wizard dip in a medium progression ranged inquisitor build is that BAB is nerfed pretty bad, and he also doesn't have a lot of feats to go around. So I thought about dipping two levels into fighter (at levels 7 and 8) to get the bonus feats without sacrificing BAB.
End result is that at level 11 (without taking any equipped items into consideration), I have a BAB of just +8, saves of 9/6/11, an AC of 14, and three attacks at +8/+8/+3 for 1d8+7 damage (when having a composite longbow with a +1 strength rating, non-magical, Deadly Aim enabled, Rapid Shot enabled). I didn't add any high level equipment, because I'm not sure what is normal.
My ape is Large, so has reach, has a +6 BAB, Bite of +12 for 1d6+13, and 2 Claws of +12 for 1d6+13, 22 natural AC with the option of Light armor (none equipped yet) and 58 HP (I took Boon Companion so he wouldn't suffer from my three non-Inquisitor levels)
I also have fun things to do outside of combat, with the Conversion Inquisition, so I end up more than capable as the party face, with a +17 to Bluff / Diplomacy, a +21 to Intimidate / Perception, and a +25 to Sense Motive. I don't know how high those generally need to be, though I have heard that those sorts of skills do come up somewhat frequently in PFS play.
Any general feedback here? Does this character sound at least functional at 11th level, even if he won't dominate?
Your attacks are very poor by 11(you will do almost never hit the front liner monsters with 28+ ac ). Your skills are ok(I have seen level 3s that top every one of those and more, and there may be better than that). Your AC is meh, Good ac is 20+ your level generally although you may be able to be fine without with spells.
Bow inquisitor is awesome with bane. Your level dips hurt your greatest advantage. Trading your judgements for a pet hurts your archery but is worth it.
You are an inquisitor with a highish wisdom if you blast Perception with magical items and such you could act in surprise round without the wizard dip. Granted they are not full round actions but much cheaper than level dips.
It is as you say. The BAB is important, and your multiclassing will hinder that progression. You should probably convince your GM to use the unchained rules for multiclassing.
Wizards gain 0.5 BAB per level. Since this is rounded down, first-level wizards aren't given any BAB at all. The same is true for the 0.75 BAB per level for Inquisitors.
With the Unchained rules, you'll be given that 0.5, and add that to your total BAB before you round it down, which will give you BAB +1 (1.25) when you take your Inquisitor level at character level 2.
This will also mean that the bonus to saves from multiclassing will be reduced, but the Unchained rules for multiclassing makes more sense, so I hope you'll use them. (and it is only the +2 to Will saves which the Inquisitor and Wizard share that will be affected.)
Welp, ignore this paragraph.
*****
Other than that, you won't be as Feat-Starved as you think. But if you want more combat feats, I recommend you to take two levels in Far-Strike Monk instead of Fighter.
You'll get Precise Shot, Quickdraw and Point Blank Shot. (In addition to Improved Unarmed Strike and the Evasion ability.)
(It doesn't even matter when you take the two levels of Far-Strike Monk since you can Retrain your current feats.)
*****
The Bane ability of the Inquisitor will allow you to add 2d6+2 damage on each attack, and it should be your main source of damage.
*****
And I think you might be overestimating the power of Lookout. It is a feat which is only useful if you often have surprise rounds. Some GM's simply forget to implement them, and in some cases they just don't happen.
It is as you say. The BAB is important, and your multiclassing will hinder that progression. You should probably convince your GM to use the unchained rules for multiclassing.
Wizards gain 0.5 BAB per level. Since this is rounded down, first-level wizards aren't given any BAB at all. The same is true for the 0.75 BAB per level for Inquisitors.
With the Unchained rules, you'll be given that 0.5, and add that to your total BAB before you round it down, which will give you BAB +1 (1.25) when you take your Inquisitor level at character level 2.
This will also mean that the bonus to saves from multiclassing will be reduced, but the Unchained rules for multiclassing makes more sense, so I hope you'll use them. (and it is only the +2 to Will saves which the Inquisitor and Wizard share that will be affected.)
*****
Other than that, you won't be as Feat-Starved as you think. But if you want more combat feats, I recommend you to take two levels in Far-Strike Monk instead of Fighter.
You'll get Precise Shot, Quickdraw and Point Blank Shot. (In addition to Improved Unarmed Strike and the Evasion ability.)
(It doesn't even matter when you take the two levels of Far-Strike Monk since you can Retrain your current feats.)
*****
The Bane ability of the Inquisitor will allow you to add 2d6+2 damage on each attack, and it should be your main source of damage.
*****
And I think you might be overestimating the power of Lookout. It is a feat which is only useful if you often have surprise rounds. Some GM's simply forget to implement them, and in some cases they just don't happen.
It is PFS so they he will use the standard rules.
It is PFS so they he will use the standard rules.
Yeah, wow. I don't even know how I missed that [PFS] at the thread title.
Will Edit my previous post.
Here is an example of a build following your character plan. (If you are a Human which are granted an extra feat at level 1.)
1. PBS (Point Blank Shot), Precise Shot.
3. Rapid Shot.
4. First Teamwork Feat: Friendly Fire Maneuvers. (To avoid the possibility of your Ape granting your enemies cover.)
5. Deadly Aim/Weapon Focus
7*. Multiclass your first level into Far-Strike Monk. Gain Quickdraw and choose either PBS/Precise shot as your bonus feat, while you retrain the corresponding feat you took at level 1.
7. Deadly Aim/Weapon Focus
8. Multiclass your second level into Far-Strike Monk. Pick the bonus feat you didn't take at level 7, and retrain the corresponding feat you took at level 1.
9. Manyshot.
At level 9, you'll have most of the feats you need. You'll have 4 attacks per round, but the first attack fires two arrows, so that is effectively 5 attacks.
*You multiclass after your 5th level in Inquisitor, as you want to pick up the Bane ability as soon as possible.
Thanks a lot for the feedback! This is why I wanted to check this out before being locked in with it at level 2.
Your attacks are very poor by 11(you will do almost never hit the front liner monsters with 28+ ac ).
Does it matter that this is without any magical items at all? Adding a belt of incredible dexterity or a +5 longbow or such boosts up the attacks. I don't know what level of equipment is expected by level 11 in PFS, but with a dex belt of +6 and a +5 composite longbow it bumps me up to +17/+17/+12 at 1d8+13. Not sure what else might be available to boost that. I then also have Inquisitor spells like Divine Favor to boost it further if need be.
You are an inquisitor with a highish wisdom if you blast Perception with magical items and such you could act in surprise round without the wizard dip. Granted they are not full round actions but much cheaper than level dips.
True, but I also enjoy having access to all arcane wands and level 1 and 2 arcane scrolls, plus the +4 to initiative from the greensting scorpion familiar, and the prescience ability 5x per day.
Other than that, you won't be as Feat-Starved as you think. But if you want more combat feats, I recommend you to take two levels in Far-Strike Monk instead of Fighter.
You'll get Precise Shot, Quickdraw and Point Blank Shot. (In addition to Improved Unarmed Strike and the Evasion ability.)
I had been thinking about Drill Sergeant archetype, as I get a bonus teamwork feat in addition to the normal two bonus feats, and I can give them to my whole team for 4 rounds once per day. Do you think the Far-Strike Monk would give me a significant benefit over that? Also, would I even be able to retrain those feats, since officially "The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat"?
And I think you might be overestimating the power of Lookout. It is a feat which is only useful if you often have surprise rounds. Some GM's simply forget to implement them, and in some cases they just don't happen.
I worried about that, but in the two PFS games I played so far I saw I think 3, maybe 4 surprise rounds total, so I thought it would come up relatively frequently.
Thanks a lot for the feedback! This is why I wanted to check this out before being locked in with it at level 2.
Does it matter that this is without any magical items at all? Adding a belt of incredible dexterity or a +5 longbow or such boosts up the attacks. I don't know what level of equipment is expected by level 11 in PFS, but with a dex belt of +6 and a +5 composite longbow it bumps me up to +17/+17/+12 at 1d8+13. Not sure what else might be available to boost that. I then also have Inquisitor spells like Divine Favor to boost it further if need be.
True, but I also enjoy having access to all arcane wands and level 1 and 2 arcane scrolls, plus the +4 to initiative from the greensting scorpion familiar, and the prescience ability 5x per day.
A +5 bow is very expensive. You can do other things that would help you with the to hit to your gold. Keep in mind i gave you the stat of the equal CR monsters. In PFS you could be fighting CR14+ monsters with even crazier ACs.
My ranger at level 6 does attacks better hit/damage than your base level 11 range, but he has rapid shot and many shots so he is firing off 5 arrows, and he has improved precise so he ignores all but total cover. He is also core, so just core rule book. Just to show you comparison.
You can dip wizard it is not a dumb move, just I do not think it is optimal. The scrolls you will probably never use it to much effect. The wands are a good use, but your bow should be better if that is what you are using. In PFS I hand wands usually to the weakest person. The other abilities are nice but is it worth it?
Now keep in mind you are calculating one level of play. You have 10 others. How will it be leveling your character as you go through the growing pains? Will you survive to 11 when you are in the down area of your power curve?
I build character 1 to 11 that are very survivable and potent all the way up.
Other than that, you won't be as Feat-Starved as you think. But if you want more combat feats, I recommend you to take two levels in Far-Strike Monk instead of Fighter.
You'll get Precise Shot, Quickdraw and Point Blank Shot. (In addition to Improved Unarmed Strike and the Evasion ability.)
I had been thinking about Drill Sergeant archetype, as I get a bonus teamwork feat in addition to the normal two bonus feats, and I can give them to my whole team for 4 rounds once per day. Do you think the Far-Strike Monk would give me a significant benefit over that? Also, would I even be able to retrain those feats, since officially "The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat"?
And I think you might be overestimating the power of Lookout. It is a feat which is only useful if you often have surprise rounds. Some GM's simply forget to implement them, and in some cases they just don't happen.I worried about that, but in the two PFS games I played so far I saw I think 3, maybe 4 surprise rounds total, so I thought it would come up relatively frequently.
Well, as for the retrained feats. You will have to first retrain Rapid Shot and Precise Shot into something else before you can retrain the PBS feat. This is a bit of a hassle, but if you got a lot of downtime, this isn't a problem.
And if you have been experiencing many surprise rounds, then Lookout could be pretty good for you. So by all means, go for it!
*****
About the Drill Sergeant or Far-Strike Monk choice...
The difference between the level dip is probably leaning towards Monk, in my opinion.
Saves: Monk will grant you +3/+3/+3, while fighter will give you +3/+0/+0.
BAB: The Same.
Feats: Both will give you two combat feats. But the Fighter choice have the advantage of not requiring you to retrain them.
The Fighter will grant you another Teamwork Feat and a single use of the Tactician ability.
The Monk will give you Quickdraw instead, which might not seem as a important feat, but it is probably very important for your idea of full-rounding in the surprise round. It is a move action to draw your weapon without this feat, so if you don't have it you are limited in the surprise round anyway, if you don't have your weapon drawn.
You'll also be given Improved Unarmed Strike if you take Monk, which is... nice.
Class Abilities: Monk will give you Evasion.
*****
If you want Lookout early, just take it as your free Teamwork Feat at level 4 and then FFM at level 5 instead of Weapon Focus. (and Deadly Aim at level 7.)
*****
And you should find ways to boost your Attack. In addition to Magic Weapons and a Belt of Dexterity, there are also interesting Wondrous Items such as Candle of Invocation. If you feel as if you can't hit your target, then maybe you shouldn't take Deadly Aim at all, since your damage is mostly dependant on your Bane ability anyway.
My current character is also a multiclassed archer with a one-level-dip into wizard. I'm using my familiar to lit the candle during the first round of combat to grant me that bonus to hit.
*****
Oh, and you could buy a Bane Baldric to get more uses of your Bane ability, since that one will mean alot for your damage.
+2 to enhancement bonus with bane as well.
This will help with special materials and DR. +3 enhancement counts as silver/cold iron
+4 addy
+5 alignment.
So a +1 weapon baned would +3
You can dip wizard it is not a dumb move, just I do not think it is optimal.
OK, this is pretty much what I wanted to make sure of. I'm OK with it not being optimal, as I think it would be fun to play anyway, I just didn't want to end up being the party waste of space. The idea is simply to have something useful and fun to do in just about any situation.
General question for both of you - one of the teamwork feats I was interested in taking was Escape Route. This seems really useful, particularly for a dedicated ranged person with a large animal companion, as if someone attacks me I can move away from them without taking an AoO from them as long as my ape is nearby. Is this as useful as I think it is?
My general idea with the ape was to make him act like an actual bodyguard. He generally stays close to me, and tries to prevent people from attacking me. I thought about having him take Stand Still after boosting his Int by 1, as that would be a way of him preventing people from advancing on me. This would also mean that I would pretty much always be in his threatening area, so with Escape Route I could pretty much always move without taking an AoO. Does that make sense?
Yes, Escape Route is great to have, but if your Ape is already standing infront of you and protecting you, then its worth is diminished, since you can only run around him. If you want to get out of the enemies reach to not provoke Attack of Opportunities, then just five-foot step away and then full-round.
On the other hand, if your Ape has taken alot of damage and needs to get out of there, Escape Route could also save him, not just you.
Another teamwork feat which would benefit your bodyguard Ape setup is Intercept Charge. This one will allow him to get in position as an immediate action when someone charges you. In other words, prevent enemies from charging you.
*****
And as your damage is dependant on Bane anyway, you might not want to lower your Attack by using Deadly Aim. You could take Teamwork feats instead of Deadly Aim/Weapon Focus at level 5 and 7.
How is this for a feat progression? I went with Fighter for the flexibility of feat choice, less retraining required (which cost prestige points in PFS), and gives me the ability to grant a teamwork feat to everybody.
1. PBS, Precise Shot
3. Boon Companion (need this at some point, taking it here allows Large ape 1 level sooner)
4. Lookout (must be teamwork, swappable with other TW feats up to WIS mod times per day)
5. Rapid Shot
7. Extended Bane, Intercept Charge (must be combat)
8. Weapon Focus (must be combat), Friendly Fire Maneuvers (must be teamwork, grantable to all)
9. Manyshot, Escape Route (must be teamwork, swappable), Retrain Weapon Focus -> Clustered Shot?
11. Extra Bane?
If you haven't already seen it, consider the Foresight subschool of Divination. You'll keep the "never surprised" ability, and get a couple (3+Int) of "pre-rolls" a day. Those extra rolls help a lot.
Thanks! Yeah, that was my plan actually, I just failed to mention that in my post... That prescience ability is really handy!
How is this for a feat progression? I went with Fighter for the flexibility of feat choice, less retraining required (which cost prestige points in PFS), and gives me the ability to grant a teamwork feat to everybody.
1. PBS, Precise Shot
3. Boon Companion (need this at some point, taking it here allows Large ape 1 level sooner)
4. Lookout (must be teamwork, swappable with other TW feats up to WIS mod times per day)
5. Rapid Shot
7. Extended Bane, Intercept Charge (must be combat)
8. Weapon Focus (must be combat), Friendly Fire Maneuvers (must be teamwork, grantable to all)
9. Manyshot, Escape Route (must be teamwork, swappable), Retrain Weapon Focus -> Clustered Shot?
11. Extra Bane?
Looks pretty good. I would probably try to get FFM as soon as possible since your Ape will grant your enemies soft cover pretty much all the time. That +4 to their AC will hurt you a lot.
And instead of getting Clustered Shot, you could probably afford a +3 Magic Weapon at that level, which will let you bump it up to +5 with Bane and ignore DR.
With the cavalier ability to grant the teamwork feat to the whole team, my understanding is that it can only grant the teamwork feat granted by that ability - so in other words, only the teamwork feat I learn at level 8 can be shared with the whole team. That was the main reason I put FFM there, so that I could allow all of my team to not grant soft cover. That being said, perhaps it would be better to take FFM at level 3, then at level 8 retrain FFM -> Boon so I could take FFM there? Or I could leave it where it is but make use of the swapping ability to swap out Lookout for FFM after combat begins?
As an aside, with FFM does that mean that my ape could be directly in between me and my opponent, and I could still shoot my opponent without a problem? Or does it only apply when my ape would be partially blocking line of sight?
Remember that the Tactician ability will cost a standard action to activate, so you'll essentially lose that round. I feel that it would be wiser to cast a spell and place yourself in a position to ignore the cover your allies are giving the enemies, instead of giving your allies FFM.
Lookout, and especially Escape Route are much better teamwork feats to use with this ability. You could save teammates by giving them Escape Route, while FFM is only useful to a select few.
And if you swap out Lookout after combat begins, that will cost you a standard action anyway, and that will make Lookout worthless, since you took it to get the Move and Standard action in a surprise round.
*****
Cover
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
/.../
Soft Cover
Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.
I believe this means you can fire "through" your Ape, but I could be wrong.
Excellent point about swapping out Lookout, that really doesn't make a lot of sense. What is your opinion on the necessity of Boon Companion in this build? How much does it hurt an animal companion to be one or two levels behind everyone else? Could I get by without Boon Companion until my second fighter level?
Boon Companion is great for you since you multiclass, but it isn't recommended to get it so early; since you won't get even half of the feat's benefit when you take it at level 3. I would take FFM at level 3, and then wait with Boon Companion until the feat is truly worth it.
*****
1. PBS, Precise Shot
3. FFM
4. First Teamwork Feat: Lookout
5. Rapid Shot
7. Extended Bane
7. Second Teamwork Feat: Intercept Charge
8. Weapon Focus/Something Else (First Combat Bonus feat from Fighter)
9. Manyshot (Second Combat Bonus Feat from Fighter)
First (and only) Teamwork Feat from Fighter: Escape Route
9. Boon Companion
*****
I hadn't thought about Boon Companion before, but this example of a feat progression where you multiclass into Fighter at level 8-9 will let you pick up Boon Companion the moment your Companion falls 3 levels behind.
My main concern with waiting for later on Boon Companion was that at levels 2-7 he will be a level behind everyone else, and at level 8 he will be 2 levels behind everyone else. How much does being one or two levels behind hurt an animal companion? I'd really rather not have a gimped ape for well more than half of my time playing him.
My main concern with waiting for later on Boon Companion was that at levels 2-7 he will be a level behind everyone else, and at level 8 he will be 2 levels behind everyone else. How much does being one or two levels behind hurt an animal companion? I'd really rather not have a gimped ape for well more than half of my time playing him.
Honestly unless you spend resources on them they fall behind anyway.
You also picked a critter in the mid level of the power spectrum. So it will not keep as well as a stronger one.
They turn into road bumps, and really that is fine. If one of them takes a turn or two of attacks and saves you or another player from dying awesome! You can get one back pretty easily.
Being a few levels behind will not hurt so much.
If you ride your companion with escape route movement your mounts makes will not threaten ever. Plus you can do a full round attack from a mount with a bow even if it moves. So that may be something to consider. You could ride your pet you just get a -5 penalty.