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Hello friends, I've been having a hotly contested debate with a friend over this topic. If this has been asked before, I apologize, for my google-fu has failed me in answering this question.
My friend wants to make pages of spell knowledge for spells that he does not know. He believes, by RAW, that he can bypass the prerequisite of not knowing the spell in question by just adding 5 to the DC of the spell.
I believe that he's incorrect, because of this line in the magic item creation rules: "Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)." So most of the time, when you want to make a magic item and do not know the spell, it can be supplied via another means to keep the DC from going up. In the case of Page of Spell Knowledge, it specifically calls out the fact that the creator must know the spell.
If this has been addressed by a member of Paizo or somewhere officially, please provide a link or the source. I'd appreciate any help in clearing this matter up, it's been sort of a hot button topic between us that I'd like to lay to rest. Thank you in advance for your help.
Page of Spell Knowledge: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/page- of-spell-knowledge
Magic Item Creation: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Creation
I'm afraid your player is right. The rules are given in the sentence immediately after where you stopped quoting:
Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites."
A missing prerequisite simply demands an increase to the Spellcraft DC, and the "only" exceptions to this rule regarding missing prereqs are item creation feats, or when creating certain types of items that don't include the page of spell knowledge.
This was specifically confirmed in a FAQ: "As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule."
Many magic items have intheir pre-req a condition in the form of "Creator must be" format.
Whether it's "creator must be an elf/hafling/gnome etc. Or creator must know skill or spell.
The contention boils down to whether a "creator must" condition can be bypassed by bumping the spellcraft DC.
Since the rules don't address that question, it's a GM call. I personally favor the position that a "must" condition can't be bypassed, but there isn't a mandate for it. But it's a perfectly valid determination to make.
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Since the rules don't address that question, it's a GM call.
The rules actually do address that question.
But more importantly, the FAQ addresses the question (and says explicitly that the rules address the question).
"there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
Since the rules don't address that question, it's a GM call.The rules actually do address that question.
But more importantly, the FAQ addresses the question (and says explicitly that the rules address the question).
"there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
The faq predates the invention of spell knowledge in a bottle items like these and has not been updated to reflect them.
The argument can very well be made that the page is much like a scroll and that creation restriction should apply to it.
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The argument can very well be made that the page is much like a scroll and that creation restriction should apply to it.
The argument can be made,... but not by any rational reader.
A page is neither a spell-trigger nor spell-completion item.
It's probably reasonable to assume that if you want to make a Page of Spell Knowledge for a person, you at least need knowledge of the spell.
Denying this is akin to saying you don't need a copy of the spell to suddenly put it onto a scroll or spell book, you can just conjure it out of nowhere.
I would conjecture that the sorcerer could get the +5 difficulty by not having to CAST the spell every day he works on it.
But I would definitely say he'd need a permanent basis of the magic to write down, possibly a spell book or something, in order to make the Page.
Given the similarity to a scroll (in pretty much all ways), that's how I'd rule it. YMMV, of course. What is a Page, after all, but a superscroll? A Page basically is a Staff that uses the caster's slots instead of charges. That's really the only difference.
==Aelryinth
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But I would definitely say he'd need a permanent basis of the magic to write down, possibly a spell book or something, in o to make the Page.
==Aelryinth
Well, you could definitely say that, but you'd absolutely be in house rule territory clear. Both the rulebook and the FAQ make it very clear that the only prerequsite that cannot be bypassed for items that is neither "potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items" is the relevant item creation feat(s). The FAQ even points out that "specific spell requirements" can be bypassed.
And, frankly, it's no more unreasonable to be able to create a page of spell knowledge for the feather fall spell than it is to be able to create a snapleaf.
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The faq predates the invention of spell knowledge in a bottle items like these and has not been updated to reflect them.
This, by the way, is false. The page of spell knowledge was published in Ultimate Equipment, which came out in September, 2012. (That wasn't even the first publication -- it's mentioned in a post from August 14, 2012.)
The FAQ was published in February, 2013.
So the FAQ was made with full knowledge that it would apply to items like this.
The difference is there are many ways you can come up with a feather fall effect for a magic item.
For the Page, you ACTUALLY NEED A SPELL. It, like, goes into your head. You NEED THE SPELL. it's a SPELL KNOWN.
But, eh. YMMV.
==Aelryinth
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For the Page, you ACTUALLY NEED A SPELL.
Repeating a wrong statement will not make it less obviously a contradiction of the written rules as confirmed by a FAQ.
EVEN IF YOU USE ALL CAPS.
For the Page, you ACTUALLY NEED A SPELL.Repeating a wrong statement will not make it less obviously a contradiction of the written rules as confirmed by a FAQ.
EVEN IF YOU USE ALL CAPS.
Yeah, but you're forgetting the first rule of making magic items.
SIMILAR ITEMS.
The items a Page is most similar to are Scrolls and Staves, and Copied Spells. Literally, it's just a scroll/staff that runs off your personal slots for its charges.
Just looking at similar items and their requisites should bring you to the same conclusion. And Similar Items trumps ALL the other 'spell construction' rules, hands down.
But like I said, YMMV. But similar items and logic should lead you to the same place.
==Aelryinth
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For the Page, you ACTUALLY NEED A SPELL.Repeating a wrong statement will not make it less obviously a contradiction of the written rules as confirmed by a FAQ.
EVEN IF YOU USE ALL CAPS.
Yeah, but you're forgetting the first rule of making magic items.
SIMILAR ITEMS.
Repeating a wrong statement will not make it less obviously a contradiction of the written rules as confirmed by a FAQ.
EVEN IF YOU USE ALL CAPS.
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For the Page, you ACTUALLY NEED A SPELL.Repeating a wrong statement will not make it less obviously a contradiction of the written rules as confirmed by a FAQ.
EVEN IF YOU USE ALL CAPS.
Yeah, but you're forgetting the first rule of making magic items.
SIMILAR ITEMS.
The items a Page is most similar to are Scrolls and Staves, and Copied Spells. Literally, it's just a scroll/staff that runs off your personal slots for its charges.
Just looking at similar items and their requisites should bring you to the same conclusion. And Similar Items trumps ALL the other 'spell construction' rules, hands down.
But like I said, YMMV. But similar items and logic should lead you to the same place.
==Aelryinth
For pricing, yes you look at similar items first. Not mechanics. And the rules are clear on this - as long as it is not a potion, spell completion, or spell trigger item, you can ignore the spell requirements when making the item.
I would consider the item a spell completion item, but I don't know if there's anything which explicitly states what type an item is, but here's the description:
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
Just to follow up, consider this item:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/spell -lattice
What sort of item is this, clearly it should be considered a spell completion item.
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A Page of Spell Knowledge is not a spell completion or a spell trigger item. Doesn't even come close.
While it may make sense for you to need the spell the rules do not support that.
House rule it any way you want, but by rule, you do not need to know the spell to make a Page of Spell Knowledge.
Trimalchio, a Spell Latice is not a spell completion item.
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell’s casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity
exactly as casting a spell does.
In no way are either of these items spell completion. They are not scrolls and do not require activating as scrolls do.
Quest is right that by the rules you don't technically need to know the spell to make the Page (note it requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat as opposed to scribe scroll/brew potion/craft wand). There are many ways to flavor the requirement as well: perhaps it's a variation of using spell research to develop the spell without a proper source (likely requiring magical textbooks or experimental tinkering to perfect). Since the sorcerer can't store it in his head, he stores it on paper and taps into it when needed.
After all, it requires decent spellcraft skill to make, which implies a certain proficiency in tinkering with the basic components of spellcasting.
That said, it's not an unreasonable houserule to require the spell source. Still, depending on the nature of the campaign, it could be a significant disadvantage to a sorcerer or spontaneous caster. It's the type of thing you should discuss beforehand (though it's easy to miss with the huge pathfinder ruleset).
Your best bet is to discuss it with the player out of game and come to some sort of compromise. Insisting on your solution will likely breed bad feelings.
Spell completion and spell trigger items (scrolls, wands, and possibly other items) are specifically defined activation methods for the mention item categories. Pages of spell knowledge (the spell lattice is a variation made for arcanists) are wondrous items that just add spells known - though that could be a limitation of the pathfinder system and item categories, but that's what we have for now (excepting houserules of course.)
My understanding of the rules is that an item has to be one of the four:
To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger. Some items, once donned, function constantly. In most cases, though, using an item requires a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. By contrast, spell completion items are treated like spells in combat and do provoke attacks of opportunity.
Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.
The four ways to activate magic items are described below:
...
So if its not a spell completion item its a use activated item? By RAW it would then require a standard action which wouldn't make it very useful.
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My understanding of the rules is that an item has to be one of the four:
To use a magic item, it must be activated, although sometimes activation simply means putting a ring on your finger. Some items, once donned, function constantly. In most cases, though, using an item requires a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. By contrast, spell completion items are treated like spells in combat and do provoke attacks of opportunity.
Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.
The four ways to activate magic items are described below:
...
So if its not a spell completion item its a use activated item? By RAW it would then require a standard action which wouldn't make it very useful.
Not all items require activation of some sort. Some items just function continuously while in your possession, such as a stone of good luck.
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Trimalchio, you are excluding a 'use activated' item which does not require activation. Lots of things fall into this category.
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to def lect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory. Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character’s possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
While the item does not clearly state what it is, I think it pretty clearly falls into the continuously functioning in your possession category.
In any case, spell-completion would also require a standard (or more) action. :P
At best it is ambiguous as its not explicitly stated how the item functions, it seems well within the rules to consider it a spell completion item, you could also rule it to be a use activated and works continuously while in possession but again either way requires a GM call since it isn't explicitly stated in the rules.
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It is not even close to being within the rules of it being a spell completion item. Wondrous items are NOT spell completion items unless they state they are. By rule, only Scrolls are spell completion unless stated otherwise (magic tattoos for example).
For it to be spell-completion or spell-trigger it must state they are because both categories have a specific list of things that are included. Anything not included falls into a different category unless the item states otherwise.
Since it is not included and the item does not state otherwise it falls under the use activation rules and from there it is ambiguous on what element of those rules it falls under.
If you could cite any rules that back up your claim that items default to certain categories of use that would be great, otherwise it seems rather ambiguous to me.
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Sure, I already did but here you go again:
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for .
Now, Spell Completion is defined as being for Scrolls. If it isn't a scroll it doesn't use Spell Completion unless it has a rule that states it does.
Are there other items that specify Spell Completion? Yes, examples are Riffle Scrolls and Spell Tattoos
A spell tattoo is essentially a wearable scroll inscribed on flesh instead of on parchment or vellum. These tattoos appear as colorful and intricate patterns rather than magical writing. The tattoo is a silent, spell completion item that only the bearer can activate. It vanishes when activated. A spell tattoo must be visible to the bearer and must be touched as part of its activation. These magical tattoos are not normally placed on the head, neck, or back as a result, since most creatures would require mirrors to activate them. A spell tattoo’s aura and caster level varies as per the scroll it emulates. A spell tattoo has a market price four times as much as an equivalent scroll.
Now on to spell trigger:
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
So, nothing about which items are spell trigger. But if we look elsewhere we find it.
Activation: Staves use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a staff is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.
Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.
Now, lets look at Wondrous Items (the category the Page of Spell Knowledge is in).
Activation: Usually use-activated or command word, but details vary from item to item.
So usually NOT Spell Trigger. Lets see if we can find some examples of Wondrous Items that spell out that they are Spell Trigger.
The spells included in a golem manual require a spell trigger activation and can be activated only to assist in the construction of a golem.
The beads of blessing, smiting, and wind walking function as spell trigger items; the beads of karma and summons can be activated by any character capable of casting divine spells. The owner need not hold or wear the strand of prayer beads in any specific location, as long as he carries it somewhere on his person.
So, there are specific classes of items which are all Spell Completion or all Spell Trigger items. Then there are some exceptions which are spelled out.
This is not spelled out, so without rules stating it is, we default to the rules that govern that type of item. In this case, a Wondrous Item which is usually (without text to the contrary) use-activated or command word activated.
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character’s possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item’s activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.
Use activation doesn’t mean that if you use an item, you automatically know what it can do. You must know (or at least guess) what the item can do and then use the item in order to activate it, unless the benefit of the item comes automatically, such as from drinking a potion or swinging a sword.
Now, the only problem with it being Use/Command activated is that no action is specified in the magic item so the GM has to determine if an action is required.
My interpretation of the rules is that it falls under the either the continuous benefit or the 'activation is subsumed in its use' clauses. Either way it works without any extra action on the user's part.
Summary: Page of Spell Knowledge is a Wondrous Item, it does not have any text telling you the activation method is different than any other Wondrous Item. Examples of Wondrous Items with different activation methods from other Wondrous Items are provided, this is not one of them. So default to Wondrous Item (ie: Use Activated or Command Word) rules.
I really think this is a case of people not being able to believe that you can create an object with a spell in it without having that spell available. While odd, those are the rules.
No, we can plenty well understand that you don't need spell x to make magic item x.
In this case, we're just looking at it and raising an eyebrow.
"So, to make this a spell known, you don't need to know the spell? Or even copy it from somewhere? Uhm. I don't even know how to wrap my head around that, really.
It would be like a wizard simply stating he's going to put spell x into his spellbook, never make a spellcraft check to understand it, and memorize it IN ADDITION to all his other spells. Just because he says he can.
It's just...weird. Not logical. The whole purpose of the magic item is about 'knowing the spell'. It adds to your spells known. It doesn't focus the spell like a staff...it actually adds it, in your head, to your Spells Known.
So, yeah, I'd rule you need access to a copy of the spell to make the item. It just seems correct to do it that way. And I'd probably let a wizard make a copy of the Page for his spellbook, too, as it's basically a super staffscroll thing.
The only way I can see you not needing to know the spell is if it was like a staff, something you held and all it did was 'focus the magic' for you, turning it from raw energy x into spell y.
But since it's making a Spell Known in your head, knowing the spell just makes sense to have this function.
==Aelryinth
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But, you do understand that it works by the rules, right? No one said it makes any sense, but that is what the rules say.
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Aelryinth, again, rules forum. These are the rules. :)
Feel free to house rule it.
Seems like a hilarious abuse of the rules to fill up your spellbook with spells without actually needing to level up or look at anybody else's spellbook. I would houserule that you need to have the spell, and I may even go so far as to say that if we sat down with developers/designers they may agree that that is RAI.
But I can't argue RAI, and this is the rules forum, and the RAW seem pretty clear. Silly, but there it is.
CampinCarl9127, you do not need a level or someone else's spellbook to gain a spell. Just research it on your own using the research rules (CRB p219 Independent Research).
The cost is generally less to research it on your own then to build a Spell Lattice just to learn the spell from it.
Heck, I would go so far as to say if people want to waste their money on Spell Lattices to put spells in their spell book they are welcome to do so.
Spell costs Spell Latice (crafted) vs Independent Research vs Copying (+scribing costs):
1st: 500gp vs 1000gp vs 5gp (+ 10gp)
2nd: 2000gp vs 2000gp vs 20gp (+ 40gp)
3rd: 4500gp vs 3000gp vs 45gp (+ 90gp)
4th: 8000gp vs 4000gp vs 80gp (+160gp)
5th: 12500gp vs 5000gp vs 125gp (+250gp)
6th: 18000gp vs 6000gp vs 180gp (+360gp)
7th: 24500gp vs 7000gp vs 245gp (+490gp)
8th: 32000gp vs 8000gp vs 320gp (+640gp)
9th: 40500gp vs 9000gp vs 405gp (+810gp)
In short, if they want to pay ridiculous sums of money to get a spell without having a fellow spellcaster's spellbook, so be it. I don't think there is a problem here.
Except spell research is subject to GM discretion, this is just crafting.
Yes, it requires money. But money should not be able to replicate knowledge.
But this entire line of argument is pointless. We can argue all day about what the rules should be, but the rules forum is not the place for it. I will houserule it otherwise in my own games, and I fully admit that my view is a houserule and not RAW.
Well it's good to know that a village blacksmith can craft a page of any spell with a DC 11 spellcraft check and 250 GP. I'm amazed NPCs aren't wiping their buttocks with them they should be so common.
This is the problem when some people take a flexible and approximate crafting system and try and make it dance on the head of a pin. Thank god we can house rule and shame on those of you that have the gall to bring this to a table.
Only on the forums would people argue you should be able to craft a Page of Spell Knowledge without having knowledge of a spell or a method of casting through wand or scroll (or indeed call preventing it "hating fun")
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Maybe they shouldn't write rules that allow that, and then when people ask about it, explicitly spell out in a FAQ meant to clarify the rules that it does work that way.
If Paizo thought this wasn't what the crafting system was meant to do, they could have answered that FAQ in such a manner.
Unfortunately the design team has limited resources and can only address so many issues a week. Perhaps it's best just to hit FAQ and hope for a response.
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They've already FAQ'd this. This is not some mystery gray area in the rules.
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CampinCarl9127, crafting is equally subject to GM discretion as is the availability of a spellbook to get a spell from.
You really don't have a point there because if the GM wants to force you to get it from leveling he can do so (not a judgment on if he should or not).
The Sword,
First, this is the rules forum and people were asking about the rule.
Second, it is 500gp and not 250gp. 500gp is the crafting price, the purchase price is 1000gp.
Third, I was illustrating how ridiculously expensive it was compared to borrowing someone else's spellbook.
Guys, the only quantifiable element between the three methods is the price. All of the rest is up to GM discretion.
In any case, the question has been asked and answered. Yes, by rule, you do not need the spell to craft a Page of Spell Knowledge, you may raise the DC by 5 instead.
If you want to take it to that point, well everything is subject to GM discretion. But there's a difference between rejecting an idea for spell research and not allowing your players to take a feat.
The specific FAQ question hasn't been asked regarding the Pages. Just a general one about magic items.
Nor should it have to, if people stepped back and considered what they are suggesting.
250 or 500gp the point is the same.
Unlimited sorcerer spell knowledge - woohoo I've broken the system again hi five.
Until that is a developer is forced to step in and stop people being absurd.
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CampinCarl9127, I think you are obfuscating things. Spell Research has two applications.
1) Creating a brand new spell.
This is not what we are discussing.
2) Researching an existing spell.
This is what we are discussing.
Researching an existing spell is as simple as paying the money, time, and making the check DC.
There is no negotiation with the GM for him to reject. He would have to reject the entire rule or prevent you from spending the money, time, or making the DC.
Why would a GM say you cannot research the spell Fireball exactly as it is written? That is ridiculous.
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The Sword, You cannot simply hand-waive the higher cost, that is the whole point regarding magic items.
The Devs have clearly established that the DCs and spells to make items SHOULD be easy to get. This is why they allow people to use another spell source to make scrolls, potions, wands, etc. and no spell for any other item.
Clearly this is a concept some people (such as yourself) have a hard time with, but that is the Devs repeatedly stated stance.
So no, don't ever expect a Dev to come in and state that this is 'absurd' when in fact they set this situation up intentionally by designing the crafting rules to be as simple as 'time, money, and DC'.
I wasn't hand waving anything. You pointed out that I had confused price with craft cost and acknowledged that while saying such a small difference didn't stop it being absurd.
I do have a hard getting my head round the concept that you can craft a page of spell knowledge without knowing the spell. This item, not any others this one. It is absurd
I am a little amazed that you can be so blasé about it. As if you are implying rules as intended in this case!
Ah, that's where the misunderstanding was.
However, you got your numbers wrong. Researching an already existing spell is only 100 gp X spell level. Link. I was judging what rules section you were using based off of your numbers, which is incorrect for researching a spell that already exists.
I do have a hard getting my head round the concept that you can craft a page of spell knowledge without knowing the spell. This item, not any others this one. It is absurd.
I am a little amazed that you can be so blasé about it. As if you are implying rules as intended in this case!
Agreed. That's why I have decided to put in a more logical houserule.
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As if you are implying rules as intended in this case!
They released a FAQ stating that you didn't need to know a spell that is required for building an item.
Like, you don't need to know Light to create a Cap of Light, nor do you need to know Disguise Self to create a Hat of Disguise.
Do you think the Devs were overlooking the numerous items that just plain cast a spell when they made the FAQ? It is very clearly rules as intended.
Very sensible. Otherwise you could overcome the penalty by simply crafting a page of spell knowledge first cheaply then hey presto you now know the pre-requisite.
1000s of Magic items, it is no surprise that a few combinations that defy sanity come up. It may be other DMs come to this thread because a player tries to argue the case. At least if they come here they will see a common sense response. Rather than just "it's rules as written, boo yah"
Sadly I think RAW is fairly clear that you can make a page of spell knowledge or similar without knowing the spell. However like CampinCarl I don't actually find this a problem because as a GM I have learned the ability to say NO to players and put in house rules when I find something which while RAW is not something I think makes sense (I doubt it is RAI but that is impossible to argue)
Well, it is the rules forums. We answer rules questions here. First and foremost our responsibility is to provide clarity on how the rules as written function. As far as that matter is concerned, they do not need to know the spell.
Secondary is putting in our personal input on the repercussions and logic of the rules being discussed. I disagree with them, so I will houserule it otherwise, which every non-PFS GM is free to do (although crafting is not an issue in PFS anyways).