| Wraythblade |
I’m posting this to ask the community and Paizo’s opinions. My gaming group is a group of mature (over age 40) players with a large amount of gaming experience. Thus, we each of us unconsciously min/max our characters in whatever role/niche we want to play.
We are currently playing through two separate PF Mythic campaigns, under two different GMs. In one of these, we have a dexterity based Swashbuckler (currently 7th level). Its player has done some theorycrafting and character planning to 20th level (Mythic Tier 10) and has determined this character’s MAXIMUM damage output in one round @ 20th level will be 3,726 with a +1 wounding rapier and a +1 short sword.
Even at a 25% crit rate, the projected damage of this character will be > 1100 per round. This character will make 9 attacks in one round. These are: 4 primary hand, 3 off hand, plus 1 primary hand from Surprise Strike, plus 1 primary hand from the standard action granted by Amazing Initiative. The character will have a minimum attack bonus of +37
Our conundrum is how to deal with damage of this magnitude, since a CR 30 Demon Lord, such as Nocticula has only 976 hit points with a reasonably hitable armour class of 48. Realistically, this mob will be obliterated by one character in one round of combat versus this Swashbuckler.
We have looked through all the feats/Mythic abilities/magic items/armour properties/spells but are unable to come up with reasonable combinations of these that would offset such outrageously high amounts of damage.
So, I would ask for the community’s input as to how to deal with this situation? What would you recommend to alleviate mobs being one-shot?
I would ask Paizo if such high damage output levels were intended and if so, how it was expected to be balanced in comparison to monster or npc hit point totals and defensive capabilities?
| Arachnofiend |
Erm... If your Swashbuckler is using offhand attacks then they're not getting precise strike damage at all. You might want to look over their character sheet and ensure they're understanding the rules properly.
That being said, this is really just a reality of Mythic and why the system doesn't really work. Mythic is a kill-in-one-round-or-be-killed-in-one-round world; hell, going back to your Nocticula example and she can cast a quickened mass suggestion and finger of death in a single round, targeting both of the Swashbuckler's bad saves.
| Wraythblade |
The Swashbuckler's damage is coming from:
Mythic Power Attack, Mythic Weapon Specialization, Mythic Bleeding Critical, Elemental Fury, Mythic Two Weapon Rend, Mythic Improved Critical, Precision Critical.
The Character was built with Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting.
The damage noted is without the Swashbuckler's Precise Strike damage; though if it were to be included on only 7 primary attacks, the maximum damage is still ~3054.
But if I understand correctly, it seems it's pretty much a "whomsoever gets the initiative wins" situation with Mythic characters then. :(
Fruian Thistlefoot
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Play a different campaign without Mythic or Gesalt rules.
Give them a 15-20 point buy, Automatic Bonus Progression rules, Ban Leadership always, Limit Crafting to 2 crafting feats a Character (as to not to abuse it but still allow it), and give them Full HP at level 1 and Half+1 every level after.
Play a Published AP and just follow the rules.
This should bring the game to a more manageable level and much less fixing will need to be done if any at all.
The APs I recommend:
Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition- One of the best written campaigns of all time and Super classic with a mix of everything. (Dragons, Dungeons, giants, Wizards of Old, alternate plane, and staving off world domination/destruction)
Skulls and Shackles- Being a Pirate is freaking awesome Mate.
King Maker- Build and Rule your own kingdom..Heavy Nature and Fey feeling
Carrion Crown- Undead and Horror Heavy
Way of the Wicked- Great Evil Campaign
Emerald Spire- Full on Dungeon Crawl
| Dave Justus |
First off, at 20th level and Mythic 10 a CR 30 should be a fairly easy encounter to begin with. To challenge such a party you would be looking for CR 32 or 33 most likely. That is sort of beside the issue though.
Basically the problem with mythic is that it is a multiplier.
An fairly optimized party will generally make short work of most APL + 4 encounters, and anything less will usually be hardly worth pulling out the dice to deal with. A more less optimized party, made up with Piazo PreGens for example, or fairly new players or people who just choose for their own reasons to not be very highly optimized, might well all be killed by a APL +4 encounter.
Mythic multiplies this difference. Meaning that if a fairly non-opmtimized mythic party finds an encounter to be a challenge, than probably any single optimized character of the same level and tier would consider it a cake walk.
| Jack of Dust |
Generally speaking, you'll want to avoid Mythic Abilities that add to your damage output like the plague if you want to keep any semblance of balance. The occasional Fleet Charge or Sudden Attack increases your damage output considerably but is still fairly manageable. The issue with the Mythic rules is that you have to be very careful about what abilities you pick if you want to avoid breaking the game.
As a general rule, try to avoid abilities that increase your damage output and instead pick ones that give you alternative options in combat or passive bonuses that don't add to damage. Otherwise chances are, your players will end up pretty much disintegrating anything in Round 1.
| Korlos |
The Swashbuckler's damage is coming from:
Mythic Power Attack, Mythic Weapon Specialization, Mythic Bleeding Critical, Elemental Fury, Mythic Two Weapon Rend, Mythic Improved Critical, Precision Critical.The Character was built with Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting.
The damage noted is without the Swashbuckler's Precise Strike damage; though if it were to be included on only 7 primary attacks, the maximum damage is still ~3054.
But if I understand correctly, it seems it's pretty much a "whomsoever gets the initiative wins" situation with Mythic characters then. :(
It looks like precision critical is a 3rd party feat. I see 5 Mythic feats, plus Mythic bleeding critical has a prerequisite, so he'll have to trade a path power for it.
His mundane feat lineup has to include: power attack, weapon focus, weapon specialization, Critical focus, Bleeding critical, Two-weapon rend, Improved critical, TWF, ITWF, GTWF. That's ten of the fifteen feats he'll get as a swashbuckler.
| Jack of Dust |
Jmage wrote:The Swashbuckler's damage is coming from:
Mythic Power Attack, Mythic Weapon Specialization, Mythic Bleeding Critical, Elemental Fury, Mythic Two Weapon Rend, Mythic Improved Critical, Precision Critical.The Character was built with Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting.
The damage noted is without the Swashbuckler's Precise Strike damage; though if it were to be included on only 7 primary attacks, the maximum damage is still ~3054.
But if I understand correctly, it seems it's pretty much a "whomsoever gets the initiative wins" situation with Mythic characters then. :(
It looks like precision critical is a 3rd party feat. I see 5 Mythic feats, plus Mythic bleeding critical has a prerequisite, so he'll have to trade a path power for it.
His mundane feat lineup has to include: power attack, weapon focus, weapon specialization, Critical focus, Bleeding critical, Two-weapon rend, Improved critical, TWF, ITWF, GTWF. That's ten of the fifteen feats he'll get as a swashbuckler.
Precision Critical is a Trickster Path Ability;
Precision Critical (Ex): Whenever you score a critical hit, double any extra precision damage dice, such as sneak attack damage. These dice are only doubled, not multiplied by the weapon's critical modifier.
| Chess Pwn |
Precision Critical is a Trickster Path Ability;
Precision Critical (Ex): Whenever you score a critical hit, double any extra precision damage dice, such as sneak attack damage. These dice are only doubled, not multiplied by the weapon's critical modifier.
I'm not seeing any precision damage from the build for this to increase.
| Fergie |
If your GM is doing good now, he will probably figure out a way to have fun by the time you get to high levels. At that point, your group will have it's own way of doing things, and your GM will probably be altering the rules quite a bit. Go with what works for everyone at the table. If you discover a rule or build that seems broken, talk it over with everyone, and decide if it belongs in the game.
| Derek345 |
Mythic is very rocket tag, but 1100 damage is on 8 hits (at least). It seems a little high for what I can see of feats and abilities, but maybe not too high for what's possible. I've seen lots of damage from a mythic monk and mythic paladin, but this seems a bit beyond what I think is likely. If you could post the relevant abilities, numbers and attack rotation we might be able to find if there's something wrong (I have no idea where he's getting precision dice), if you assume it's all legal...
All hits landing on an appropriate level encounter is very unlikely. How does he plan to get past Mythic DR? It also seems like he's doing significant damage with bleed perhaps even with con damage, any mythic "boss" should be immune to one or both.
If you're looking for houserules to make mythic more balanced (I won't defend the balance, its just not)...
I know some people ban mythic power attack, personally I'd just make it so you can't pierce mythic DR, abilities/effects that pierce it instead reduce it by 1/2. By the time you get to Lvl 20 MR 10 there should never be a 1 monster encounter.
That said though mythic arcane casters can generally break the game much worse than mythic mundanes. Look up mythic time stop.
| Jack of Dust |
Jack of Dust wrote:I'm not seeing any precision damage from the build for this to increase.Precision Critical is a Trickster Path Ability;
Precision Critical (Ex): Whenever you score a critical hit, double any extra precision damage dice, such as sneak attack damage. These dice are only doubled, not multiplied by the weapon's critical modifier.
Presumably the player didn't realize you couldn't use precise strike while Two Weapon Fighting. There could also be another Mythic Ability that deals precision damage but I don't know for sure.
Edit: It's likely the player was planning on using Bloody Streak.
Bloody Streak (Ex) Whenever you successfully deal sneak attack damage to a creature, you can expend one use of mythic power as a swift action to heighten your bloodshed. Thereafter, every consecutive round that you deal sneak attack damage, add a cumulative +1d6 bonus on your sneak attack damage roll. The targets of these sneak attacks don't need to be the same. You can gain a maximum number of bonus d6s on your sneak attack damage in this way equal to your tier. As soon as you fail to deal sneak attack damage to a creature in a round, this effect ends and you no longer gain the bonus on sneak attack damage until you use this ability again. For example, a 10th-level rogue, 6th-tier trickster uses this ability after dealing 5d6 points of sneak attack damage to a foe. On the next round, she deals 6d6 points of sneak attack damage to a foe (5d6 from her rogue levels + 1d6 from this ability). The round after that, she deals 7d6 points of sneak attack damage, but on the next round, she fails to deal any sneak attack damage, and so her sneak attack damage resets back to 5d6.
| Kayerloth |
CR is guess work/artwork at that level and the difficulty experienced by a given party highly situational regardless of the alleged CR of the encountered creature(s).
A single boss vs a party with APL=CR ... this is just ugly for any boss regardless of the stated CR be it 5 or 50. Action economy is a major @^%&#$.
Multiple targets tends to alleviate the action economy issue.
Throw the CR out the window and design the encounter to challenge your party whether that encounter is a single creature or a multitude of creatures. By the time your party reaches those levels you should have a much greater grasp of exactly what is going to be required than any and all theory crafted stats you could work up currently.
Demon Lords (or Ladies) aren't caught alone with anyone much less a potentially deadly group of adventurers. Same is true for most any even semi-rational BBEG.
Terrain and Environment are the GM's best friend. This is crazily so when the BBEG "rules" said planar realm.
AC 48 (or whatever) is largely unbuffed and without any magic items. Nor are the target PC(s) suffering any debuffs. Have fun.
| Chess Pwn |
Chess Pwn wrote:Jack of Dust wrote:I'm not seeing any precision damage from the build for this to increase.Precision Critical is a Trickster Path Ability;
Precision Critical (Ex): Whenever you score a critical hit, double any extra precision damage dice, such as sneak attack damage. These dice are only doubled, not multiplied by the weapon's critical modifier.
Presumably the player didn't realize you couldn't use precise strike while Two Weapon Fighting. There could also be another Mythic Ability that deals precision damage but I don't know for sure.
Edit: It's likely the player was planning on using Bloody Streak.
Bloody Streak (Ex) Whenever you successfully deal sneak attack damage to a creature, you can expend one use of mythic power as a swift action to heighten your bloodshed. Thereafter, every consecutive round that you deal sneak attack damage, add a cumulative +1d6 bonus on your sneak attack damage roll. The targets of these sneak attacks don't need to be the same. You can gain a maximum number of bonus d6s on your sneak attack damage in this way equal to your tier. As soon as you fail to deal sneak attack damage to a creature in a round, this effect ends and you no longer gain the bonus on sneak attack damage until you use this ability again. For example, a 10th-level rogue, 6th-tier trickster uses this ability after dealing 5d6 points of sneak attack damage to a foe. On the next round, she deals 6d6 points of sneak attack damage to a foe (5d6 from her rogue levels + 1d6 from this ability). The round after that, she deals 7d6 points of sneak attack damage, but on the next round, she fails to deal any sneak attack damage, and so her sneak attack damage resets back to 5d6.
But he also has no source of sneak attack damage for that to boost either. It's probably thinking that he got precise strike on every hit. So that's 8*40 damage 320 that he's not getting.
| JohnHawkins |
When I ran Wrath of the Righteous to the end the only way to deal with the damage numbers the pc's produced was to give important npc's between 6 and 16 thousand hp that way they could last more than 1 round.
Mythic inflates damage numbers beyond anything the RAW can handle, and I had already nerfed many of the more powerful abilities.
| Jack of Dust |
If he takes Path Dabbling (or a Dual Path though I don't think he has it) he can pick up Deadly Guidance from the Marshal Path which gives both him and his allies a source of sneak attack.
Deadly Guidance (Ex): You are able to point out the weak points in an enemy's defenses, and your allies benefit from your tactical insight. As a swift action, you can expend one use of mythic power to designate a single opponent within 30 feet of you. All allies within 30 feet of that opponent gain the sneak attack ability when attacking it, and can thus deal +1d6 points of damage when flanking that opponent or when the opponent is otherwise denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. This sneak attack damage stacks with sneak attack damage from other sources. This ability lasts a number of rounds equal to half your tier (minimum 1). You can take this ability up to four times. Each time you take it, the sneak attack damage from this ability increases by 1d6.
It might very well be the case that it was a mistake with Precise Strike but at the very least it's not impossible that this ability (or some other ability I may have missed) is what is giving him some extra damage. To be honest, I'm not sure it matters either way since he already seems to be doing way more damage than he could possibly need to and I have seen a few cases where damage in a round has reached the thousands with mythic power.
| Wraythblade |
The player mistakenly thought Precision Critical would apply to the Swashbuckler's Precise Strike damage. But in any event, damage from Precise Strike is not included in the calculated damage for any of the 9 attacks in the OP.
The damage was recalculated without considering any of the Mythic components; so normal damage for a 20th level character. It worked out to >1000 maximum on 7 attacks, so while still high, it seems far more manageable.
Ultimately, I'm guessing the simple answer is simply to remove the Mythic component from the campaigns.
| Chess Pwn |
As a GM I am having a similar problem in a NON_MYTHIC campaign. I have a human fighter who at 13th level typically deals over 300 points of damage per round. Even with moving the encounters up to CR 15+, the party can kill all the badguys in less than 2 rounds of combat.
Suggestions?
Can you give us his attack routine? His bonuses to attacks and the damage, and how he's getting those. Have you been following WBL?
If you can tell us this then we can first make sure it's correct, and then suggest how to deal with it.My guess is a nice crit weapon and some nice buffs.
Wolfsnap
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Beyond a certain level, parties are no longer going to be challenged by combat. You just have to accept that. And that's okay! The players have put in the time to make their characters into action-hero-gods, and they should get to enjoy that. Let whup some monster butt on a regular basis.
However, as levels go up, the real challenges need to become more outre. Weird problems that can't be solved with basic mechanics. Foes who break or ignore the rules in fundamental ways. Adversaries who can't be fought on any level, but instead must be coped with somehow.
Conflicts can also become less about what the PCs CAN do, and more about what they WILL do - or won't, as the case may be. Moral dilemmas, temptations, the consequences of power, that sort of thing.
Finally: I would hope that by the time they get to a high level, the players will have developed the long-term goals and ambitions of their characters, and those goals and ambitions should be reaching fruition (or falling in ruins). Lots of drama to be mined from those consequences.
| Meraki |
Mythic, as said already, is kind of nuts. It's...really NOT balanced, so if you're concerned about that, I'd avoid it in the future, as it turns damage output up to 11.
That being said, an easy fix if you're using published APs or modules is just to up the amount of hp the enemies have so that they last long enough to actually do something. Add as much as you think you need to make the encounter actually challenging for the party. (Though not every encounter needs to be an "oh god oh god we're all going to die" scenario.)
If you as the GM are making up the adventure, keep in mind that CR is calculated for the damage output of an average party. If the PCs are a well-oiled combat machine, account for that. I very rarely create encounters at APL for my groups; they're usually at least 1 above it, and typically 2-3 above APL for boss encounters. Improved initiative is also a good thing to give enemies in this instance. Or toss a powerful caster with lots of mental spell tricks at them. The party will appreciate that swashbuckler's massive damage a lot less when it's coming down on the wizard thanks to a confusion spell.
Wolfsnap's suggestions above are also good ones. Sure, the party CAN one-shot the aasimar cleric that's dominated by some evil creature...but would they?
| TxSam88 |
TxSam88 wrote:As a GM I am having a similar problem in a NON_MYTHIC campaign. I have a human fighter who at 13th level typically deals over 300 points of damage per round. Even with moving the encounters up to CR 15+, the party can kill all the badguys in less than 2 rounds of combat.
Suggestions?
Can you give us his attack routine? His bonuses to attacks and the damage, and how he's getting those. Have you been following WBL?
If you can tell us this then we can first make sure it's correct, and then suggest how to deal with it.
My guess is a nice crit weapon and some nice buffs.
We don't play PFS, we use slightly higher point built and don't care about WBL,
but his weapon stats at 12 lvl are: +3 falchion +20/+15/10 2d4 +30 15-20/2
(he also has boots of speed)
Feats that are applicable:
Furious Focus
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater weapon spec
Improved crit
Power attack
weapon focus
weapon spec
His current strength with magic is 23
so at 4 attacks per round, just 1 crit and 2 hits puts him close to 150 damage, and he's been known to crit 3 times/round. which puts his damage over 200. So maybe not 300 like I said, but still more than a CR 12 monster can take.
| Claxon |
Step 1) Never ever ever use mythic unless you're are using a pre written adventure that requires it. Even then it will not be balanced. Without mythic tiers in a mythic adventure the players will die. With mythic tiers and moderate optimization your players will one shot everything before they get a chance to go, because if they don't they die.
It's severely broken and not fun to play (for a GM, and for me as a player)
Step 2) Explain to your player that the amount of damage would make it virtually impossible to play any meaningful combats. Ask him to rebuild his character to be less optimized for combat (including removing all the terrible mythic stuff from everyone's characters).
| Anonymous Warrior |
Chess Pwn wrote:TxSam88 wrote:As a GM I am having a similar problem in a NON_MYTHIC campaign. I have a human fighter who at 13th level typically deals over 300 points of damage per round. Even with moving the encounters up to CR 15+, the party can kill all the badguys in less than 2 rounds of combat.
Suggestions?
Can you give us his attack routine? His bonuses to attacks and the damage, and how he's getting those. Have you been following WBL?
If you can tell us this then we can first make sure it's correct, and then suggest how to deal with it.
My guess is a nice crit weapon and some nice buffs.We don't play PFS, we use slightly higher point built and don't care about WBL,
but his weapon stats at 12 lvl are: +3 falchion +20/+15/10 2d4 +30 15-20/2
(he also has boots of speed)
Feats that are applicable:
Furious Focus
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater weapon spec
Improved crit
Power attack
weapon focus
weapon specHis current strength with magic is 23
so at 4 attacks per round, just 1 crit and 2 hits puts him close to 150 damage, and he's been known to crit 3 times/round. which puts his damage over 200. So maybe not 300 like I said, but still more than a CR 12 monster can take.
Okay, assuming that he is using his Boots of Speed to "End 'em rightly."
Highest Attack: 12 + 6 (Str) + 2 (WF) + 3 (Mgc) + 2 (WT) + 1 (Haste)= +26So his attack bonus runs +26/+22/+17/+12. Against appropriately normal encounters (say a purple worm, AC 26), he hits with the first blow and the second almost automatically, has a great chance with the third, but he'll probably miss with the fourth attack.
As for crits, his odds are (30%, slightly less than 30%, about 15%, about 5%).
This is the fighter at his optimum. Break his falchion, Give him an opponent that flies, is incorporeal, is immune to criticals, won't let him get within 5ft. in the first place, or anything else along those lines, and he's much more ineffective.
Case in point, same purple worm: +21 with two attacks with reach. More or less autmatically deals 6d8+40 damage (average 67 dmg./round) Now, the fighter can probably take this for a round, possibly (not likely) for two, but he's also poisoned (1d4 Str/round) and grappled. He can't likely kill the worm in one turn (200 hp), so he's all together still depending on his allies to help him win the day. What's more if the worm feels it's had enough, it can burrow away without to much trouble.
Chess Pwn wrote:TxSam88 wrote:As a GM I am having a similar problem in a NON_MYTHIC campaign. I have a human fighter who at 13th level typically deals over 300 points of damage per round. Even with moving the encounters up to CR 15+, the party can kill all the badguys in less than 2 rounds of combat.
Suggestions?
Can you give us his attack routine? His bonuses to attacks and the damage, and how he's getting those. Have you been following WBL?
If you can tell us this then we can first make sure it's correct, and then suggest how to deal with it.
My guess is a nice crit weapon and some nice buffs.We don't play PFS, we use slightly higher point built and don't care about WBL,
but his weapon stats at 12 lvl are: +3 falchion +20/+15/10 2d4 +30 15-20/2
(he also has boots of speed)
Feats that are applicable:
Furious Focus
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater weapon spec
Improved crit
Power attack
weapon focus
weapon specHis current strength with magic is 23
so at 4 attacks per round, just 1 crit and 2 hits puts him close to 150 damage, and he's been known to crit 3 times/round. which puts his damage over 200. So maybe not 300 like I said, but still more than a CR 12 monster can take.
Okay, assuming that he is using his Boots of Speed to "End 'em rightly."
Highest Attack: 12 + 6 (Str) + 2 (WF) + 3 (Mgc) + 2 (WT) + 1 (Haste)= +26So his attack bonus runs +26/+22/+17/+12. Against appropriately normal encounters (say a purple worm, AC 26), he hits with the first blow and the second almost automatically, has a great chance with the third, but he'll probably miss with the fourth attack.
As for crits, his odds are (30%, slightly less than 30%, about 15%, about 5%).
This is the fighter at his optimum. Break his falchion, Give him an opponent that flies, is incorporeal, is immune to criticals, won't let him get within 5ft. in the first place, or anything else along those lines, and he's much more ineffective.
Case in point, same purple worm: +21 with two attacks with reach. More or less autmatically deals 6d8+40 damage (average 67 dmg./round) Now, the fighter can probably take this for a round, possibly (not likely) for two, but he's also poisoned (1d4 Str/round) and grappled. He can't likely kill the worm in one turn (200 hp), so he's alltogether still depending on his allies to help him win the day.
All of this is with a simple, no surprise round CR 12 monster. Put him in a CR 15 'boss battle' and things get even more troublesome for him.
| Chess Pwn |
Chess Pwn wrote:Are you saying it's incorrect? we use HeroLab, so I would think what's on his sheet is correct.str 23 = +6
12+6+3+1+1+2 = +25/+20/+15 to hit, +25/+16+11 if power attacking
damage is 9+3+2+2+2= 18, +20 if power attacking.Yeah, it's a fighter that kills things well.
No, I was saying it all checked out and that he has nothing special. If you're not doing WBL then he could have had a +5 keen sword and the fighter gloves that give another +2 to hit and damage and a +6 belt etc... But what you have is a generic basic fighter, which is quite good at killing things it can full attack. But that's as it should be, that's the fighter's only job.
| AlaskaRPGer |
I have a similar fighter (Two-handed fighter specialist). Add the gloves of duelling and at 13th level I was at +30/+20/+15 power attacking, and with only two attacks hitting doing a minimum of ~80dmg. All three hit, floor of ~125 hp. With the falchion having crits wasn't unusual, so every 4-5 attacks I got a crit, so then I'd do almost 200hps in one round.
Then again, I have 29AC and 120 ish HP. I need a LOT of healing, and I need to be next to the enemy. Plus my saves are ok (+13 ish across the board) but not great, I've only survived this long due to Luck Feats with allow re-rolls, and two healers in my party keeping me alive (I go through Heals, Cure X's and Breath of Lifes like crazy).
So like your player, I kill things, when I can get to them. That's all I do. It's fun, and my team makes kid me about it (So how many thousands of DMG did you do this time?), but it's my 9-5 job, and I do it. I put a skill point in Profession (Soldier) because it seemed right.
My DM plays the enemy smart and the enemy uses his underlings to keep the Cuisinart away from him. So use tactics like that.
| Meraki |
My DM plays the enemy smart and the enemy uses his underlings to keep the Cuisinart away from him. So use tactics like that.
Enemy minions are great for this. The DM playing the opponents smart can really minimize issues with the very powerful characters.
| AlaskaRPGer |
AlaskaRPGer wrote:My DM plays the enemy smart and the enemy uses his underlings to keep the Cuisinart away from him. So use tactics like that.Enemy minions are great for this. The DM playing the opponents smart can really minimize issues with the very powerful characters.
Agreed. My fighter's real battle is getting TO the enemy, and surviving being there.
To the OP - wait until he gets hasted and gets an extra attack at highest BAB!
| AlaskaRPGer |
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CampinCarl9127 wrote:I once saw a mythic gunslinger who could solo Cthulhu in one round. It was disgusting.A non mythic wizard can do this, it isn't that special.
Mythic is super broken though, yeah.
Mythic time stop is just so dumb omg. What do you even do for 20 hours of time stop???
Maybe you have surprise guests and need to clean your tower and do laundry?
| Scott Wilhelm |
You have a bunch of cagy old gamers full of tricks. You need to be tricky right back. Be diabolical. Cheat a little. They expect it.
For starters, go through your demons' treasure lists, and make sure your demons are using their treasures to fight against the party. The stats given for a Great Wyrm Dragon are those for a naked dragon! There's no reason why they can't be wearing their Rings of Free Action and Scarabs of Protection!
Plant false clues. Have spies watching their every move. Create objectives that don't have anything to do with killing the monsters: role playing challenges makes everyone level 1.
Sow dissention: pass the occasional note to a player when you don't need to. Take the occasional player out of the room and explain something mundane. The rest of the party will wonder what you told him. He'll deny anything important happened, "The GM just told me [blah, blah, blah]." But they won't believe him: they will believe he is withholding information or planning something. Then pass that player a note that says, perhaps among other things, "Regarding what we discussed in the other room, 2 hours of game time has passed." Whether he shows them th note or not, they'll think he's up to something.
Take another look at your PCs. I think you'll find that characters with extreme strengths also have extreme weaknesses. In particular, DPR usually goes up a lot faster than HP. If they weren't very careful designing their characters, you might have a lot of glass cannons in the party.
| j b 200 |
My campaign is nearing the end of book 4 in WotR. A few things to think about on you super powered swashbuckler.
1) That "max damage" is a myth. It doesn't exist. This assumes he will hit with all attacks and roll max damage and get max precision, and bleed and con damage etc. With an (unbuffed) AC in the 40s the player will not hit with the 3rd off-hand attack. He just won't. He will likely have to roll in the high teens to hit with anything other than the first one or two attacks. All this is before we take into account buffs, bonuses, defensive spells, positioning etc.
2) Trading full attacks is a bad idea for both PC and Baddy. You know that full attack above for 18 kadrillion damage. Well hope you kill him, because now the BBEG gets to take a full attack against you. Kostchtchie, a CR 27 demon lord, has a +30 on his 5th attack that round with PA, oh and 15ft reach, dealing an average of 51dmg per hit. That's probably going to hit on all 5. So, 250 damage a round, on average. You PC is at what, 400hp? And that is before all the bells and whistles go off. A crit maxes at 190 dmg, and you are staggered for a round if you make the DC 41 fort save.
Oh, and hope you have good luck on those fort saves, because 2 or 3 failures vs. Unholy Aura and your Dex build swashbuckler is at 0 Str and paralyzed.
3) He won't be fighting alone. The BBEG is immune to just about anything you throw at him except direct damage. Oh, and how is he bypassing the Epic DR or Regeneration? Also, the BBEG will have about a dozen or so CR 25 minions running around as well. This is after you just fought through 9 levels of the keep to get to him/her. So how many mythic points do you still have? 10? Sure your wizard still has all his spells per day? Even if you can kill the mooks (term used loosely here) in one full attack, one bad save or a good round of attacks and a CR25 WILL kill you. People aren't kidding when they call it rocket tag. At this level, even the mooks have spells that are no save and remove you from the board abilities. Have fun fighting without your cleric to keep you upright between rounds.
It's not as bad as the "math" implies. Also, since that's several levels/tiers down the road, you will have plenty of time to teach eachother what works and what doesn't.
| j b 200 |
Mythic time stop is just so dumb omg. What do you even do for 20 hours of time stop???
Spend an hour examining the PCs from top to bottom. Get detailed notes on all their exploits, current equipment and buff spells. Go home, gather all the scrolls and potions you need to counter everything. Summon friends. Craft an item. It's unclear if Dispel Magic works. Spend an hour placing all the Mythic Symbol spells your can. There is lots you can do in 20 hours.
| The Goat Lord |
Dealing with overpowered PCs is easier than you think. A few ways I deal with it include:
1) Reviewing the PCs' character sheets and building an encounter or two that exploit their weaknesses. Each class/player has a blind spot. Find it and stick it. Often times you can look at their saving throws for inspiration.
2) Remember the PCs are supposed to win. A few cake battles are okay, as long as you challenge them from time to time with an actual...challenge.
3) More enemies. Haunts. Swarms. Natural hazards. A dungeon cave in. A hurricane. An earthquake. Sometimes an usual additive makes all the difference. Consider the environment an enemy as well. Nature always wins.
4) Oozes. Acids. Anything that destroys gear (if you want to get nasty and risk upsetting folks).
5) Step into another plane, where the rules change and certain powers are nullified.
6) Audit the PCs and make sure you are following the PC wealth per level. If they are too rich, well, then they need to enjoy their current gear for a couple more levels.
7) Magic. Spell resistance. Immunities. But, vulnerabilities too.
I hope that helps a smidgen.
| CWheezy |
CWheezy wrote:Mythic time stop is just so dumb omg. What do you even do for 20 hours of time stop???Spend an hour examining the PCs from top to bottom. Get detailed notes on all their exploits, current equipment and buff spells. Go home, gather all the scrolls and potions you need to counter everything. Summon friends. Craft an item. It's unclear if Dispel Magic works. Spend an hour placing all the Mythic Symbol spells your can. There is lots you can do in 20 hours.
That's like, the first hour. Then what do you do for the last 19
| Gwen Smith |
Rapier and short sword?
Goat Lord is right about the oozes. Lots of them with the split ability don't take damage from piercing weapons:
coven ooze
Greater verderous ooze
Orche Jelly
...and so on.
| Zhangar |
As someone who actually likes mythic --
1) Oh yeah, mythic PCs are crazy. They're demigods, after all. it's fine if they're crazy.
2) Sadly, CR 26+ monsters are really balanced for L20 non-mythic PCs, not mythic PCs. And so they require some serious adjustment. So:
(A) 4E/JRPG up those HP numbers - quadruple maximum HP is a good minimum for a unique CR 26+ creature.
(B) If they're intelligent, then give them equipment. The CR30 Nocticula is also a Nocticula with no more gear than her magic crossbow. When she's the ruler of an Abyssal realm the size of Japan that's also the economic center of the Abyss, and she's successfully killed and looted nearly two dozen other Abyssal lords and their holdings. Nocticula should basically have infinite money and the equipment and inherent bonuses reflecting that (including gear that breaks the rules a little, like + 8 heavy fortification bracelets of armor and so. But yeah, a Nocticula actually reflecting the resources she has access to would have closer to a ... 61 AC? Meaning your L20 tier 10 swashbuckler needs a natural 20 to even hit her if he isn't getting help? (And has to pass a DC 48 fort save to even approach without getting his brain cooked.) Hmmm, her profane bonus to AC really should scale with her Cha mod instead of being a flat number, I think...)
(C) Look at 4E, 5E, the Hero Point system, and other things that grant out-of-turn actions or additional actions per turn. For example, I routinely give demigod-bosses a free action at initiative-10 every round to cast any domain spell from any of their granted domains.
(D) Now, for more mundane foes... Build them mean (reach plus combat reflexes is your friend versus all those fleet charging PCs =P), but also expect the mundane foes to die, and die horribly. Which is completely fine.
Part of the point of mythic is the PCs being able to face and take out foes that would casually annihilate (or at least severely damage) lesser mortals.
3) The rules are a guideline, not a straitjacket. If the rules aren't working right for your group, change them.
Like all parts of the game, there are part of the mythic rules that are too good, and you'll want to tone them down. Just what qualifies as "too good" is going to change from group to group, though.
| Hyrgulf |
j b 200 and The Goat Lord and Zhangar have some good general advice for making encounters more difficult and more interesting.
Here are a few others
1. To expand on full attacks, remember, those should be difficult to set up. Don't have all of your enemies stringed together separated by 5 foot steps or have them run up to the PC allowing her to 1 shot it on her next turn. Make the PC take 1 round getting into range (and possibly taking an AoO, and a possible full rnd attack from the monster), before the PC gets to full round attack and possibly/probably kills the monster. After having to do that a few times, the PC is going to need some healing.
Give the monsters more reach than the PC has, or use combat maneuvers to knock the PC out of full attack range after they have positioned themselves to get a full attack.
if the PC has pounce (or something similar), use uneven terrain, or allow the monster/NPC to position itself so it's not in a charge lane.
If the PC has ranged attacks, put up things that give concealment like obscuring mist, or similar, forcing the PC to re-position, take miss chances, or have someone use an action getting rid of the concealment if possible.
2. Utilize room shapes to the Monsters advantage. Put minions in a skinny corridor, with a 90 degree angle, allowing the Big bad to buff them, while they block the PC's from getting to the big bad.
3. Debuff the PC's: drain ability scores, saves, etc; apply negative statuses (like sickened, nauseated, slow etc...)
In my most recent game, my 5 attack per round hasted natural weapons barbarian was grappled, and hit with a relatively high DC fort save, when failed made me nauseated. For the next 3 rounds until I made the save, I was pretty much out of the fight, while the monster slowly knocked down my hit points. When I made the save to end the effect, the monster died. So instead of 1 shotting it, it took 4 rounds before I "1 shotted it".
4. divide the party, when the high damage, low AC character get's the highest initiative, and jumps out way in front of the rest of the party to get into melee range, throw up a wall of stone between him, and the rest. That'll be the last time he does that.
Basically, for the memorable fights, make sure the bad guys use tactics as well as the PC's will. Remember, they only have this one encounter, and probably only a few rounds during this encounter, so they don't need to conserve their resources (which the PC's likely do, or have been doing because they shouldn't always be fighting only 1 encounter per rest period). Figure out 2 or 3 good tactics when you design, or read over the encounter, and note them down. Then pick the most appropriate one at the time of the fight.
Also, remember, a high damage dealing PC/Monster should have a decent chance to kill an equal CR/Level adversary in 1 round. Take a 1st level barbarian NPC Power Attacking with a 2 handed weapon. They might not always hit, but when they do, they'll pretty much one shot any d8 or lower class on minimum damage.
Just remember, not to make every encounter a possible party wipe. Sometimes the PC's should cut through the bads like butter. But sometimes there should be a bit more to the fight. But at the end of the day, the PC's are meant to win. (Or it should be obvious to them, that they are not meant to win, and think of surrendering, running away, or another course of action than trying to kill the obstacle).