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I feel like people that talk about aggro in Tabletop RPGs haven't really tanked in MMOs, because aggro isn't a thing by itself: A tank needs to build threat, which means any good tank needs to consider his own DPS and how it relates to threat."Tanks" in MMOs often have lots of non-DPS means for increasing their aggro. For example, they'll have skills designed to increase aggro, or spells that cause aggro at a rate disproportionately high to the spell's damage output, or they equip weapons that proc aggro increasing effects.
Typically, a good tank can hold aggro despite the fact that just about every other character in the group is putting out more damage, and this is directly attributable to those non-damage aggro boosters to which they have access.
Yes, but you still need a way to reliably generate threat, and most of the time, threat generation is based on a percentage of damage.
It also vastly depends on your party.
If you have an archer and blasty sorcerer as the rest of the party just getting in between the bad guys and the party works fairly well. If you have to tank for a melee rogue you need to do something else: murphys rules of combat: if the enemy is in melee range then so are you.
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The Warder is a really good for this, if you can go 3rd party. You provide a scaling bonus to AC to your nearby ally AC and Will Save, and can apply a scaling penalty to enemy attack rolls against allies. These bonuses don't apply to yourself, but you have a d12 HD, great saves, and probably a shield. You also get a couple bonus feats to work with.
Tactically, you still have choices to make because your offense will heavily rely on maneuvers, which can do all sorts of fun things. (Including draw more fire away from allies.) Your maneuver recovery method is pretty awesome too, setting up a Combat Patrol like area and extended reach to whollop people with.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder
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I was really excited about this thread until people (mostly one person) showed up to complain about a term. Why? What was the point of that? You got irritated that someone showed up looking to make a character with a particular style in mind, used a term that probably 75% of the people on this board probably understand. That term is something the reader can relate to pathfinder and find something that works to accomplish something similar.
Also why get angry at people that played WoW? outside of the people that already played table tops, the MMO's probably did more to change the perception of tabletop games in a positive way.
You knew what he meant and that there is effects (antagonize, Divine Prankster enrage ability) that have existed in 3.5 and pathfinder that accomplish something similar.
Back to the thread: If you don't have the feats to really invest in the trip line of feats, Stand Still might be a nice addition. Preventing people from moving past you. I think Agile manuevers might be worth it in general...but if not you it wouldn't be too awful of a check with full bab and if you aren't dumping str for a finesse build.
"With a sharp blade, a clever taunt, or something that otherwise attracts her foe, the warder can direct the attention of enemies towards himself."
is the flavor for the Warder mark ability.... Goading people/things to get angry and focus on you...or just annoy/harass them isn't some magical/mind control ability.
Many professional athletes/MMA fighters/even professional gamers really believe in trash talking. Its a way to put the opponent on tilt, making them make stupid mistakes that they wouldn't normally.
Trash talking is fine, you don't need a feat or mechanic to trash talk. Just trash talk and see if you draw attention. A good DM will respond sometimes but not in every case - undead, oozes, constructs, plants, things that don't speak the lingo, intelligent NPCs. The other alternative is stand in the way and hit people who try to get past you.
What is being suggested here is some mechanic to 'force' the DM to attack who you want to attack irrespective of position or common sense. With combat expertise+shields+attack defensively or combat reflexes+reach weapon it sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.
People should be encouraged to play monsters/NPCs intelligently. Which means targeting obvious squishy spell casters and forcing them to be a bit more defensive rather than lobbing fireballs like Mount Vesuvius. Considering the M/CD That we have now agreed exists I would have thought the last thing we would want is a mechanic to force the DM to stop attacking casters.
Lastly there are already enough ways to make running BBEG difficult for the DM unless they have an army of minions. Please let's not add any more.
These are just some initial thoughts. Incidentally you don't need to play 4e to understand the concept granted. But believe me 'agro' is not a common TTRP term. Believe it or not a lot of people don't like MMORGs.
A mouser swashbuckler.
Armed with a Spine Flail.
Using Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard, In Harm's Way, Monkey Style, Monket Shine,
You will be impossible to ignore.
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Antagonize is very much a taunt ability that brings an opponent to focus on you, though only for a round. It is exactly the the feat you need to having something of an aggro effect. that helps you keep enemies focused on you, though only one at a time.
I apparently hit a hot button by using the term "aggro".
For all of those "aggro should only be in MMORPG" people out there, how about this: I want to cause enemies to attack me instead of my allies. It's as simple as that. I'm not implying there should be some statistic going on where my "threat" is higher than my allies. I just want something that forces them to attack me, either with a hard limit (like they can't attack anyone else, or they MUST attack me) or a soft one (they can attack other players, but there's a downside, like a penalty or an AoO).
If by using the term "aggro" I made it seem like I wanted an exact reproduction of the mechanic from games that typically use that term, I apologize. 'Twas not my intent.
To all of those providing positive input, thank you.
In my experience, simply having a reach weapon (as well as non-reach attack capability, such as a natural attack) works pretty well.
It isn't fancy, but if you have Combat Reflexes, it can be VERY effective.
Lucerne Hammer seems to work, as it gives flexibility of damage types and decent damage output.
Straight up Fighter might actually be worth considering, simply because you want to boost AC and HP (Dodge/Toughness). I've played a role like this in the past pretty effectively and didn't even wander outside the core rulebook!
Core fighter was initially my first thought. I like the Warder suggestion, though I wish it didn't require having a decent Int. Plus the "Marking" ability is limited number of times per day, which is kind of a disappointing thing to see on a martial character.
Most Martials actually have a limited resource pool of some kind of another. The Fighter is the exception, and without extreme system mastery is considered one of the weakest classes.
However, you should examine the Iron Tortoise discipline, which is full of maneuvers that penalize an opponent for attacking allies, force them to attack you, or negate attacks on allies. Maneuvers can be used all day.
As for having a high INT, the Warder gets so much to take the pressure off your other stats you can totally afford it. The extra damage and less focus on full attacks from maneuvers reduces your need for STR. INT to reflex saves and extra AoOs means you don't need as much Dex. A d12 HD takes a little pressure off CON, and your good will save means you need WIS less than a Fighter.
Swashbuckler can be an interesting one as well... They have a limited ability to just PARRY attacks... and don't look heavily armored, but add level to damage...
I dunno, to reproduce, say, a 'tank' from WoW, I would honestly just go full Fighter, no archetype. They can be pretty solid if they get support from the group.
Alternately, Hunter gets a super awesome animal companion, with free Teamwork feats, that might be worth looking at. I'm playing one now and I dominate the group when I choose to...
4E also included a sort of catch-22, in that enemies were penalized for attacking allies (with negatives to attack) as well as granting the character a sort of AoO if the enemy chose to attack an ally any way. On the other hand, they could instead attack the tanking character, whose AC was normally through the roof, and had plenty of HP to spare.Pathfinder has a Paladin archetype that does most of this.
Sacred Shield
** spoiler omitted **
As someone who GM'd a Sacred Shield Paladin, I can confirm that the archetype makes it incredibly difficult for enemies to do anything meaningful to your allies. If you want to "tank", this is the class for you.
If the main object is to protect your buddies and goad the enemy into acting less wisely than they should, perhaps an alternative might be to focus a build that uses Intimidate to frighten an opponent, with some dips into cavalier (order of the cockatrice) and/or rogue (thug archetype) and taking feats like Cornugon Smash, Dazzling Display, Gory Finish, and such. True, you wouldn't get them to attack you, but making them run away would have much of the same effect.
Fair enough. So it would be more of a Dex/Int build?
The standard build focuses on STR, INT, and CON actually. But if you want to go DEX and dual-wielding there's the Dervish Defender archetype.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/dervis h-defender-warder-archetype
This loses you Iron Tortoise in exchange for the much more offensive Thrashing Dragon. As a general thing, you're sacrificing a decent chunk of AC by not using a shield, but the Dervish Defender has class features to make up for that.
Path of War also has a feat called Deadly Agility which let's you add Dex to Damage. Also, there's a Warlord archetype that uses heavy armor, shields, and Iron Tortoise if you wanted to go CHA based for the concept.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord/warlord-archetypes/vang uard-commander-warlord-archetype
I did initially consider an Intimidate-focused build, though a Halfling won't be very good at it (Cha bonus helps though). It does have the issue of not always applying to certain creature types. Adding Shaken does have a similar effect to what I'm looking for though, so it's still an option.
The Enforcer feat is a great option for small Intimidate builds. Sure, you still get the -4 penalty for being smaller than your target, but you only have to meet the DC to make them shaken for the whole combat.
Also, was reminded by the player that the character was not a sword-and-board, it was a dual-wielder. So that helps with the damage output somewhat, to help ensure I'm a threat.
You can get Improved Shield Bash to two-weapon fight with your shield and keep your AC up.
If you want to do a dual-wielder without a shield, consider a dex-based monk as your starting point: awesome AC and Saves will make it very hard for the bad guy to hurt you, flurry effectively gives you Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice for free, and depending on your archetype, you have a great selection of bonus feats. Add three levels of Unchained Rogue for 2d6 sneak attack, weapon finesse, and Dex to damage on your chosen weapon; that will also kick your evasion up to improved evasion if your archetype doesn't trade it out.
Well I said Dex because, as you said, there are ways to use Dex for attack/damage, plus it also still contributes to AC (and Warder even has a semi- armor training feature)
That's possible to do, but the Warder gets Heavy Armor proficiency which offsets the need for high dexterity to begin with. Up to you there though.
Also, if you go Monk as Gwen Smith suggests, look at the Flowing Monk archetype to block hits for your allies.
I support the Warder suggestion. Playing it in a game right now and its fantastic fun. You can really force enemies to choose between a rock and a hard place. They can try attacking your allies, but you're boosting their AC and cutting enemy attack rolls, or they can try attacking you, and then you just unleash hell with your maneuvers.
Keep in mind, a lot of stuff with Iron Tortoise specifically uses a shield, so sword and board works better for it. There's also feats that let you use unusual weapons like polearms with Weapon Finesse in Path of War, and things that let you use reach weapons one handed I think.
It seems to have a bad rep, which I suppose is why no one's mentioned it, but I personally get a lot of mileage out of the Archon Style tree. It's difficult to use but if you can swing it, it's the best aggro resource available in my opinion.
There's also the excellent spell compel hostility, but it can be difficult to use effectively as well.
It seems to have a bad rep, which I suppose is why no one's mentioned it, but I personally get a lot of mileage out of the Archon Style tree. It's difficult to use but if you can swing it, it's the best aggro resource available in my opinion.
There's also the excellent spell compel hostility, but it can be difficult to use effectively as well.
ARchon style: oh wow.. that IS bad. Requires more feats than bodyguard, the combat expertise feat tax, AND burns a standard action AND you take an AC penalty .. did I mention it burns your standard action?
Archon Diversion: the move action isn't bad.
Archon justice: swift action, now we're talking. But thats a looong road of bad to get there. The AOOs are sweet though