Hey.
A player in my game asked me recently if it were possible to get, as per my thread title example, a set of armour that gave him +2 strength, instead of the belt slot.
I can't see anything in the rules for magic items prohibiting this, unless I have missed something somewhere?
Also, if it can be done, best advice on how to go about it? Or would people be in favour of not doing it?
He just saved 2k gold from that, not "a ton".
I'd say he could have a +2 STR armor, as long as, if he has any other +ATT item, he has to pay extra gold equal to Xk, where X is the largest modifier received (in this case, 2k).
As an absolute minimum there should be a 50% price increase on the Str enhancement price as it is outside its normal slot.
I would recommend that you allow it, but the enhancement bonus to Str count as +s for determining price. Thus +1 chainmail of +2 Str would be priced as +3 armor.
Slotless items have costs based on benefit doubled (ioun stones, for instance). Why not have it cost 1.5 times for out-of-slot placement? Can't remember if that's the rule, anyway.
Why does the player not want to use the belt? If they already have a belt, they can add the strength modifier to it - just add an additional 50% of the less expensive ability.
Also remember, magic item creation is entirely in the realm of GM discretion. So consider carefully and I'd suggest erring on the side of conservatism when it comes to this sort of thing (what may not seem like an issue now could balloon pretty quickly where magic items are involved, and it's pretty tough to unring a bell).
Hey.
A player in my game asked me recently if it were possible to get, as per my thread title example, a set of armour that gave him +2 strength, instead of the belt slot.
I can't see anything in the rules for magic items prohibiting this, unless I have missed something somewhere?
Also, if it can be done, best advice on how to go about it? Or would people be in favour of not doing it?
A couple guidelines which apply here:
Respect Each Crafting Feat's Niche: You might be tempted to create rings that have charges like wands, or bracers with multiple charge-based effects like staves. A GM allowing this makes Craft Wondrous Item and Forge Ring even more versatile and powerful, and devalues Craft Staff and Craft Wand because those two feats can create only charged items.
Before allowing such an item, consider whether the reverse idea would be appropriate—if someone with Craft Wand can't make a wand of protection +1 that grants a deflection bonus like a ring of protection +1 , and if someone with Craft Staff can't make a handy haverstaff that stores items like a handy haversack, then Craft Wondrous Item and Forge Ring shouldn't be able to poach item types from the other feats.
For me, I'd be disinclined to move it over to be part of magic armor but maybe there's a component to the armor that can be enchanted using Craft Wonderous Item to be a slotless strength boost. Making a wonderous item slotless doubles it cost. As a GM, I'd be inclined to allow that.
Alternately, whatever non-strength belt he wants can have the strength bonus added into it. There's rules created for that.
Tell him to start saving money for Powered Armor... It's much betetr than a single +2 to str after all.
As an absolute minimum there should be a 50% price increase on the Str enhancement price as it is outside its normal slot.
I would recommend that you allow it, but the enhancement bonus to Str count as +s for determining price. Thus +1 chainmail of +2 Str would be priced as +3 armor.
I thought about that, too. But there are a ton of things you can add to armor that are static costs, as opposed to enhancement equivalent. I'd probably make this a static cost, but have the cost be 150% of the belt cost.
If your player wants the belt slot for something else, there is an official system for that: Innate item bonuses
Short summary: Standard bonus items (belt of strength, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor etc.) are removed. Instead any magic item with the according slot provides the standard bonus, additional to its normal properties. The additional value is represented by a price increase.
If your player wants the belt slot for something else, there is an official system for that: Innate item bonuses
The baby-to-bathwater ratio is a little high for that; you're suggesting that the entire campaign economy and advancement system instead of creating a single custom magic item.
That's like setting fire to the entire apartment building because my bedroom is cold.
DESCRIPTION
This armor blurs the wearer whenever she tries to hide, while also dampening the sound around her, granting a +5 competence bonus on Stealth checks. The armor's armor check penalty still applies normally.
I'm just going to use an example of a real armor enhancement to strenghten my point.
A +5 compentence bonus to a skill does normally cost 2500 gp. The shadow enhancement have an +50% increase of price since it is calculated as a secondary ability (as per the magic item creation rules).
Just do so with your player's +2 str enhancement.
A belt of +2 Str has a price of 4000 gp, so the +2 str enhancement would have a price of 6000 gp (4000 x 1.5).
Even if he gets a belt of dexterity +2 in addition to his +2 str armor, it would have cost exactly the same amount of gold to just buy a belt of physical might.
*****
Just Remember that the armor must have atleast an enhancement bonus of +1 before he can add any magical abilities to it.
There is an Ioun Stone for exactly this case where you do not want to give up your beltslot.
Pale Blue Rhomboid. 8.000 Gold for a +2 enhancement bonus to Strengh. Doesnt use an itemslot.
P.S.
there are also Ioun Stones with which you can later "upgrade" the slotless stat-boosting to +4 and +6,w hen you have more cash to invest.
Uh huh, uh huh
OR , you could look at the book. Table 15-29 in the CRB, specifically. You can either decide (as the GM) that a) no, you can't add ability bonuses to armor because it doesn't say you can (armor and weapons are handled differently than wondrous items) or b) you can because it doesn't say you can't, depending on your personal view of restrictive vs permissive rule sets.
If you choose b), treat it like a normal enhancement bonus. A +1 armor of +4 Strength would cost 25,000 (total bonus (+5) squared X 1000) and would need at least a +1 first, with a max limit of +10 total, like all generic magic armor.
"But then you could make a +1 armor of +9 Strength!" Well, yeah. To the best of my knowledge, there never was a hard and fast rule that ability bonuses can't go above 6, they just never did in official content. I have always assumed you could make a belt of +8 or higher if you wanted to dive into the custom magic item rules. I'm also fairly confident there's no maximum number of effects (or magnitude thereof) on any single wondrous item, but I could be wrong.
I don't see any reason to limit the rules, they're already fairly balanced, and if a GM allows the PCs to gather sufficient gold to custom-magic-item their way into Godhood, that's the GMs fault.
And finally, the player in question isn't getting away with anything. It's objectively sub optimal to use up enhancement slots on your armor for something that would fit better in another slot, unless the GM is specifically and arbitrarily limiting item slots. And the GM who does that wouldn't allow you to put ability enhancement on your armor anyway.
If you choose b), treat it like a normal enhancement bonus. A +1 armor of +4 Strength would cost 25,000 (total bonus (+5) squared X 1000) and would need at least a +1 first, with a max limit of +10 total, like all generic magic armor.
When pricing a new magical item, you should first and foremost compare it with existing magical items.
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide.
I don't know why some people here want to treat it as a normal enhancement bonus when there already exists examples of adding numerical bonuses to armor at a fixed price.
Uh huh, uh huh
OR , you could look at the book. Table 15-29 in the CRB, specifically. You can either decide (as the GM) that a) no, you can't add ability bonuses to armor because it doesn't say you can (armor and weapons are handled differently than wondrous items) or b) you can because it doesn't say you can't, depending on your personal view of restrictive vs permissive rule sets.
If you choose b), treat it like a normal enhancement bonus. A +1 armor of +4 Strength would cost 25,000 (total bonus (+5) squared X 1000) and would need at least a +1 first, with a max limit of +10 total, like all generic magic armor.
This does not follow. There's no reason that an enhancement bonus to one thing (like Strength) should be added to an enhancement bonus to something else (like armor or Dexterity) prior to the squaring, and in fact, that specifically violates how the multi-stat belts and whatnot are priced. They're priced as though the different enhancement bonuses are independent, plus the 50% cost increase for multiple effects per item.
If you're going for the everything-not-prohibited-is-permitted philosophy, then you can choose any method you like of pricing armor of Bull's Strength, and there's no reason to require a +1 enhancement bonus to the armor itself.
But the ultimate rule is still that you want the item not to be unbalancing and in line with other items, irrespective of formulae. As pointed out, a slotless +2 Strength bonus is always available for 8,000 gp through an ioun stone; therefore, no effect that adds a +2 Strength bonus should cost more than 8,000 gp.
Yeah but that slotless +2 is an enhancement bonus,
Right, but so is the belt bonus, so by extension, is the Strength bonus given my armor.
There's no real difference; there's still no reason for a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength ever to cost more than 8,000 gp.
This does not follow. There's no reason that an enhancement bonus to one thing (like Strength) should be added to an enhancement bonus to something else (like armor or Dexterity) prior to the squaring, and in fact, that specifically violates how the multi-stat belts and whatnot are priced. They're priced as though the different enhancement bonuses are independent, plus the 50% cost increase for multiple effects per item.
What do you mean? That's EXACTLY how the ability boosting items are priced. They're bonus squared x1000 to craft, double that to purchase. Now, if your point was, "that's not how pricing multiple effects on wondrous items works," then you're right, but that's not relevant.
It doesn't MATTER that it violates a rule for Wondrous items. It's not a Wondrous item, it's a suit of armor.
Furthermore, there's every reason to add everything up before squaring, because that's how the rules for armor work.
What do you mean? That's EXACTLY how the ability boosting items are priced. They're bonus squared x1000 to craft, double that to purchase.
This does not follow. There's no reason that an enhancement bonus to one thing (like Strength) should be added to an enhancement bonus to something else (like armor or Dexterity) prior to the squaring, and in fact, that specifically violates how the multi-stat belts and whatnot are priced. They're priced as though the different enhancement bonuses are independent, plus the 50% cost increase for multiple effects per item.
Er. no. There's no rule that they need a +1 bonus to something else, nor is there any suggestion that enhancement bonuses to different things should be added together before squaring.
So, aside from the fact that literally everything you said in your post was wrong,.....
This does not follow. There's no reason that an enhancement bonus to one thing (like Strength) should be added to an enhancement bonus to something else (like armor or Dexterity) prior to the squaring, and in fact, that specifically violates how the multi-stat belts and whatnot are priced. They're priced as though the different enhancement bonuses are independent, plus the 50% cost increase for multiple effects per item.
What do you mean? That's EXACTLY how the ability boosting items are priced. They're bonus squared x1000 to craft, double that to purchase. Now, if your point was, "that's not how pricing multiple effects on wondrous items works," then you're right, but that's not relevant.
It doesn't MATTER that it violates a rule for Wondrous items. It's not a Wondrous item, it's a suit of armor.
Furthermore, there's every reason to add everything up before squaring, because that's how the rules for armor work.
Okay, you claim a lot of things in this post, but there is no referencing to any rules to back your statements.
Ability bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared × 1,000 gp
Yes. Magic Item table. The ability bonus has the same base price for every magic item. Wondrous items and magic armors are both magic items.
Er. no. There's no rule that they need a +1 bonus to something else, nor is there any suggestion that enhancement bonuses to different things should be added together before squaring.So, aside from the fact that literally everything you said in your post was wrong,.....
Er. Yes.
A suit of armor with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
also
Add [special +x bonus] to enhancement bonus on Table 15–3 to determine total market price.
The over-under is that a +2 SR (15) armor (SR (15) being a +3 special ability) costs the same as a +5 armor. That's the rules.
OQ is correct.
For example, I want to make a stealthy plate mail that gives +5 to Stealth, like I would normally get on a cloak of elvinkind (2500).
It would cost me 3750 to add that effect to my armor. Oh, look! That is actually on the armor effect table for exactly 3750.
I don't add 1+5 and square it for 72,000 gp.
OQ is correct.
For example, I want to make a stealthy plate mail that gives +5 to Stealth, like I would normally get on a cloak of elvinkind (2500).
It would cost me 3750 to add that effect to my armor. Oh, look! That is actually on the armor effect table for exactly 3750.
I don't add 1+5 and square it for 72,000 gp.
Right, because Stealth is on the special ability table, listed as 3750. Show me where on that table +Ability is listed.
OK never mind I see it now.
I still think the armor needs to be +1 to accept any additionally enchantments at all, but yeah, I can see adding +ability for just bonus squared x 1000 x 1.5.
I honestly can't figure out what I was thinking.
As long as you can accept being wrong about something, you can always improve. Don't let it get to you.
Hey.
A player in my game asked me recently if it were possible to get, as per my thread title example, a set of armour that gave him +2 strength, instead of the belt slot.
I can't see anything in the rules for magic items prohibiting this, unless I have missed something somewhere?
Also, if it can be done, best advice on how to go about it? Or would people be in favour of not doing it?
I can tell you that if you mark up the price by 50% then the player would gain absolutely no benefit to putting it on the armor versus putting it on a preexisting stat boosting belt. The +2 Str/Dex belts are literally just the two belts combined and one marked up 50%. And that's just derived from the rules for magic items for combining magic items, which is mark up the lower value ones by 50% (for slotted items).
Paizo decided to condense all physical stat boosters to the belt and all mental stat boosters to the headband (which was a vast improvement over 3.5, I'll be honest). This still locks out interesting and flavorful choices which is why there's also a more recent set of "stat belt + special effect" or "stat headband + special effect".
But in the end, if the player pays the markup they already would have paid to put it on the belt, there's really no reason not to let them put it on their armor.
A +2 str enhancement bonus on a set of armor would cost 6000 gp.
A +4 str enhancement bonus on a set of armor would cost 24000 gp.
A +6 str enhancement bonus on a set of armor would cost 54000 gp.
(A reason to not allow this would be if the player doesn't have the Craft Wondrous Item feat, since all the normal ability bonus enhancement bonuses comes from Wondrous Items.)
Thread: Resolved
Note that Strength still has affinity for the gauntlets slot, so the player can still totally make Gauntlets of Ogre Strength from 3.5 (backwards compatibility and all that).
Likewise, although Paizo formally does not use them, you can still assign Con to the Amulet slot and Charisma to a cloak, if you so desire. It's just you end up with the same thing happening...the Amulet is usually reserved for +Nat AC, and the Cloak for +prot, so something's going to be at +50% anyways.
One of the reasons Paizo uses higher WBL vs 3.5 is to accommodate the stacking of stat enhancers into single items. 3.5 went the other way and eliminated the extra cost of stacking stat mods with custom items (so people could actually use 'cool gauntlets x' instead of rote Gauntlets of Dexterity +6, every time.)
It should be noted that at the end of 3.5, the rules were changed so that the 'Big 6' of enhancements did NOT incur or trigger +50% cost rises to other enchantments placed on those items, JUST so people could finally have their charisma booster and +Prot cloak, too.
It's not that way in the SRD, however.
==Aelryinth