So before I saw a forum post that said that these two archetypes couldn't be used together. I know why that was said, but I'm not 100% sure why that was said. If you look at the archetypes, it looks like its even PFS legal.
Links for convenience:
Eldritch Scion
Spell Dancer
The "overlap":
This ability replaces arcane pool, and abilities that modify arcane pool also modify eldritch pool.
This ability replaces the magus's ability to expend points from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding magic bonuses for 1 minute.
I omitted the rest of the text and left only the relevant part about replacements.
So according to this, they do work together just fine. The arcane pool is replaced/modified by eldritch scion. But the spell dancer only modifies the weapon enchantment ability, which eldritch scion does not touch. So there is no actual overlap.So why do people say they can't be used together?
Or is my understanding here wrong and I'm looking at something completely different?
Any alteration to a class ability, no matter how small, prevents another archetype from altering any part of that ability. Both of these archetypes alter Arcane Pool so they are incompatible. It doesn't matter how they each alter Arcane Pool; it just matters that they do alter it.
I should mention that things can get a bit more complicated if the two archetypes change different sub-features of the same class feature. Here is the relevant FAQ.
Archetype Stacking and Altering: What exactly counts as altering a class feature for the purpose of stacking archetypes?
In general, if a class feature grants multiple subfeatures, it’s OK to take two archetypes that only change two separate subfeatures. This includes two bard archetypes that alter or replace different bardic performances (even though bardic performance is technically a single class feature) or two fighter archetypes that replace the weapon training gained at different levels (sometimes referred to as “weapon training I, II, III, or IV”) even though those all fall under the class feature weapon training. However, if something alters the way the parent class feature works, such as a mime archetype that makes all bardic performances completely silent, with only visual components instead of auditory, you can’t take that archetype with an archetype that alters or replaces any of the sub-features. This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class. As always, individual GMs should feel free to houserule to allow small overlaps on a case by case basis, but the underlying rule exists due to the unpredictability of combining these changes.
This doesn't apply to the situation you described since Arcane Pool doesn't have sub-features.
I'm not seeing how they alter the same ability. The part about what they replace clearly states different things. Is that not the part you go by for seeing if they overlap? If anything, the FAQ you quoted says that they would work together.
I'm not seeing how they alter the same ability. The part about what they replace clearly states different things. Is that not the part you go by for seeing if they overlap? If anything, the FAQ you quoted says that they would work together.
The class feature in question is Arcane Pool. It doesn't have any sub-features so that part of the FAQ doesn't apply. It is all one feature.
Eldritch Scion gets Eldritch Pool which replaces Arcane Pool.
Spell Dancer gets Spell Dance which alters Arcane Pool.
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as the other alternate feature.
Since both archetypes affect Arcane Pool they can not both be taken at the same time.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
By my accounting, the current possible Magus archetype combinations are...
Beastblade/Spell Dancer (Elf)
Beastblade/Staff Magus
Bladebound/Kensai
Bladebound/Myrmidarch
Bladebound/Soul Forger
Bladebound/Spire Defender (Elf)
Bladebound/Staff Magus
Card Caster/Kensai
Card Caster/Myrmidarch
Card Caster/Spire Defender (Elf)
Card Caster/Staff Magus
Eldritch Archer/Elemental Knight (Suli)
Eldritch Archer/Fiend Flayer (Tiefling)
Eldritch Archer/Hexcrafter
Eldritch Archer/Kapenia Dancer
Eldritch Archer/Kensai
Eldritch Archer/Myrmidarch
Eldritch Archer/Spire Defender (Elf)
Eldritch Archer/Staff Magus
Eldritch Scion/Fiend Flayer (Tiefling)
Eldritch Scion/Spellblade
Eldritch Scion/Staff Magus
Elemental Knight (Suli)/Spell Dancer (Elf)
Elemental Knight (Suli)/Staff Magus
Esoteric/Fiend Flayer (Tiefling)
Fiend Flayer (Tiefling)/Mindblade
Fiend Flayer (Tiefling)/Skirnir
Fiend Flayer (Tiefling)/Soul Forger
Fiend Flayer (Tiefling)/Spell Dancer (Elf)
Fiend Flayer (Tiefling)/Spire Defender (Elf)
Fiend Flayer (Tiefling)/Staff Magus
Greensting Slayer/Soul Forger
Greensting Slayer/Spire Defender (Elf)
Hexcrafter/Spell Dancer (Elf)
Hexcrafter/Staff Magus
Kapenia Dancer/Spell Dancer (Elf)
Mindblade/Spellblade
Myrmidarch/Spell Dancer (Elf)
Skirnir/Staff Magus
Soul Forger/Spell Dancer (Elf)
Soul Forger/Staff Magus
Spell Dancer (Elf)/Spellblade
Spell Dancer (Elf)/Spire Defender (Elf)
Spellblade/Spire Defender (Elf)
Spellblade/Staff Magus
Beastblade/Eldritch Archer/Staff Magus
Bladebound/Soul Forger/Staff Magus
Eldritch Archer/Elemental Knight (Suli)/Staff Magus
Eldritch Archer/Fiend Flayer (Tiefling)/Spire Defender (Elf)
Eldritch Archer/Fiend Flayer (Tiefling)/Staff Magus
Eldritch Archer/Hexcrafter/Staff Magus
Eldritch Scion/Fiend Flayer (Tiefling)/Staff Magus
Eldritch Scion/Spellblade/Staff Magus
Fiend Flayer (Tiefling)/Skirnir/Staff Magus
Fiend Flayer (Tiefling)/Soul Forger/Spell Dancer (Elf)
Fiend Flayer (Tiefling)/Spell Dancer (Elf)/Spire Defender (Elf)
Spell Dancer (Elf)/Spellblade/Spire Defender (Elf)
Note that some of these require that you simultaneously count as two different races.
Eldritch Scion gets Eldritch Pool which replaces Arcane Pool.
Spell Dancer gets Spell Dance which alters Arcane Pool.
Emphasis mine, I disagree with the bolded part. And here's why.
This ability replaces the magus's ability to expend points from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding magic bonuses for 1 minute.
This is the same quote as above. A Spell Dancer Magus still has an arcane pool, and its the exact same arcane pool, its not affected at all. So the arcane pool is not altered as you said, a separate ability is altered.
Spell Dancer Magus get Spell Dance in addition to their arcane pool. Just like how a normal magus gets weapon enchantments in addition to his arcane pool. If you think of the enchantment and the pool as separate abilities then it becomes easier to see this.Spell dance replaces the ability to augment their weapon using points from the pool, yet it doesn't touch the arcane pool ability at all. If it did modify the arcane pool then the quote I posted from spell dance would have said "this ability modifies the arcane pool." They are completely separate abilities, therefore there's no overlap between the archetypes.
I feel like this would be more clear if the weapon enhancing ability had a proper name, like Magus Blade or something. Then spell dance would just say, this replaces Magus Blade, rather than the way it is now. Because the way it is now leads to this confusion.
Here is the base Arcane Pool class ability.
Arcane Pool (Su): At 1st level, the magus gains a reservoir of mystical arcane energy that he can draw upon to fuel his powers and enhance his weapon. This arcane pool has a number of points equal to 1/2 his magus level (minimum 1) + his Intelligence modifier. The pool refreshes once per day when the magus prepares his spells.
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal. Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property's base price modifier (see the Magic Weapon Special Ability Descriptions). These properties are added to any the weapon already has, but duplicates do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the arcane pool point is spent and cannot be changed until the next time the magus uses this ability. These bonuses do not function if the weapon is wielded by anyone other than the magus.
A magus can only enhance one weapon in this way at one time. If he uses this ability again, the first use immediately ends.
This class ability does a couple of things. First of all, it gives you an arcane pool. That is described in the first paragraph. It also lets you spend an arcane pool point to enhance your weapon for one minute. I have bolded the paragraphs that describe this. That portion is also part of the Arcane Pool class ability. For purposes of stacking archetypes, changing any part of this description counts as altering the entire Arcane Pool class feature.
--------------
Here is the Spell Dance class ability.
Spell Dance (Su): At 1st level, a spell dancer gains the ability to expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to gain a +10 enhancement bonus to his movement rate and a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity provoked by moving through threatened spaces for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the spell dancer gains another +10 enhancement bonus to movement and +2 to AC against attacks of opportunity provoked from movement.
At 5th level, once per spell dance as a swift action, the spell dancer may use one of the following on himself as a swift action: blur, fly, or haste. These abilities last for 1 round. At 9th level, the spell dancer may instead take a swift action to use dimension door as a spell-like ability once during a spelldance. At 13th level, the spell dancer may instead choose to take a swift action to gain freedom of movement for 1d4 rounds.
This ability replaces the magus's ability to expend points from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding magic bonuses for 1 minute.
It doesn't replace the entire Arcane Pool class ability, but it does replace the bolded portion of the Arcane Pool class ability. The fact that you still have an arcane pool does not mean that the Arcane Pool class feature hasn't been altered. Removing the ability to enhance your weapon is an alteration to the base Arcane Pool class ability, and that means that Spell Dancer is incompatible with any archetype which also alters or replaces Arcane Pool.
--------------
Here is the Eldritch Pool class ability.
Eldritch Pool (Su): An eldritch scion gains an eldritch pool of personal magical energy, equal to 1/2 his magus level (minimum 1) + his Charisma modifier. As a swift action, he can spend 1 point of eldritch energy to enter a state of mystical focus for 2 rounds. This allows him to use abilities from his bloodrager bloodline as though he were in a bloodrage, though he gains none of the other benefits or drawbacks of bloodraging. At 4th level, an eldritch scion can also use his eldritch pool as an arcane pool, gaining all the benefits of the magus's arcane pool class feature.
Additionally, any magus class feature or spell from the magus spell list that normally uses a calculation based on Intelligence is instead based on Charisma for an eldritch scion. For example, an eldritch scion with the arcane accuracy magus arcana grants himself an insight bonus on attacks equal to his Charisma bonus, not his Intelligence bonus. This benefit has no effect on the eldritch scion's skills or skill points. This ability replaces arcane pool, and abilities that modify arcane pool also modify eldritch pool.
This replaces the entirety of the Arcane Pool class ability, including the bolded portion which Spell Dance is also trying to replace. An Eldritch Scion doesn't have the Arcane Pool class ability at all. That means that Eldritch Scion is incompatible with any archetype which replaces or alters Arcane Pool.
--------------
In summary...
Spell Dancer alters the Arcane Pool class ability.
Eldritch Scion replaces the the Arcane Pool class ability.
The stacking rules tell us...
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as the other alternate feature.
Thus the two archetypes are incompatible.
Flagged to be moved to the Rules Forum.
I understand where you're coming from.
I read the eldritch pool and only changing the pool itself. And then spell dance and changing the enhancing weapon part. Not as eldritch pool changing the entire arcane pool (Su) ability from being a magus.
I also read the line from eldritch pool, "...abilities that modify arcane pool also modify eldritch pool," as another reason why they would work together still.
You do make it clear why they cannot be used together so thank you for the clarification. I was looking at it wrong it seems. I feel that these archetypes should be able to be used together though. I feel like if some of the language was cleared up then they would work together though, but I guess that comes down to GM approval still. And it does not work in PFS clearly then
I understand where you're coming from.
I read the eldritch pool and only changing the pool itself. And then spell dance and changing the enhancing weapon part. Not as eldritch pool changing the entire arcane pool (Su) ability from being a magus.
I also read the line from eldritch pool, "...abilities that modify arcane pool also modify eldritch pool," as another reason why they would work together still.
I thought those might be the sticking points. I was hoping that seeing the entire text of the abilities might help you see the bigger picture.
You do make it clear why they cannot be used together so thank you for the clarification.
You are very welcome. I'm always happy to help another Magus fan. :)
I was looking at it wrong it seems. I feel that these archetypes should be able to be used together though. I feel like if some of the language was cleared up then they would work together though, but I guess that comes down to GM approval still. And it does not work in PFS clearly then
You aren't the only one who finds this confusing. The FAQ I cited was in response to widespread confusion on this issue, and there are still cases that are really difficult to parse. It is especially problematic when you look at older archetypes which often altered or replaced abilities without explicitly saying they were doing so.
I believe that the list that I cited is correct, though. I've spent a lot of time organizing the alterations and replacements because the Magus is one of my favorite classes.