Keen Weapon Attack Question

[NobyShroom]

So for this example say the enemy has an AC of 20. The rogue has a keen rapier. Rogue attacks said enemy and rolls a 15 with the rapier and adds his +4 to hit making it a 19 total. Due to the keen the rapier threatens a critical. I have him roll to confirm. He rolls a 10 with a +4 making 14 total thus not confirming. I told him he hits still but no crit, however another player who fancies himself a rules lawyer stated he misses anyway since the original "hit" didn't hit AC anyway.

So my question is. If I crit threat with a keen weapon and mess up the confirmation do I even hit if the original threat didn't hit AC?

[TGMaxMaxer]

If the original attack didn't hit, it doesn't matter that it was a threat.

To threaten a critical requires the original roll to hit.

The "rules lawyer" was exactly right in this case.

[Ya'akov]

NobyShroom wrote:

So for this example say the enemy has an AC of 20. The rogue has a keen rapier. Rogue attacks said enemy and rolls a 15 with the rapier and adds his +4 to hit making it a 19 total. Due to the keen the rapier threatens a critical. I have him roll to confirm. He rolls a 10 with a +4 making 14 total thus not confirming. I told him he hits still but no crit, however another player who fancies himself a rules lawyer stated he misses anyway since the original "hit" didn't hit AC anyway.

So my question is. If I crit threat with a keen weapon and mess up the confirmation do I even hit if the original threat didn't hit AC?

I heard this both ways, and it comes up frequently for me because I use a Keen Katana (15-20 Critical threat range).

I think the official rules is that your "rules lawyer" is right in this case, though the GM may rule otherwise.

Be advised, if you are allowed to still hit on an unconfirmed, non natural 20, your enemies will be able to as well.

[Ziere Tole]

Only a natural 20 is an automatic hit. Other rolls within a weapon's threat range still need to meet or beat the target's AC.

Combat - Critical Hits wrote:

Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn't result in a hit is not a threat.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Keen would be far, far too powerful if it guaranteed a hit if the die roll was 15 or higher. High-crit weapons in general would be too powerful.

[Imbicatus]

You could give a keen kukri to a first level commoner, and they could hit AC 50 25% of the time if it did, even though they aren't proficient.

[Anzyr]

It really isn't both ways. If merely threatening a critical was sufficient to hit an opponent regardless of AC then weapons with high crit ranges + keen would be literally the only things worth using. IF you've heard it any other way then your rules lawyer described you heard it wrong. This is exactly the sort of reason you should listen to your rules lawyers people.

[KainPen]

In your example you should not even roll to confirm the critical cause it is a miss. You only roll critical conformation when you actual hit and it is in the critical range. Confirm hit then confirm Crit is the rules.