yeah, but now you're talking at LEVEL 10! Halfway through the game you can finally do respectable damage with a second weapon! (Because Gloves of Dueling are 15k!!! And WT2 is at 9th!). And you're probably STILL not going to have more then a +1 Bow, MAYBE Adaptive (because a +2 weapon is another 8k out the window).
Unless you have some method of leveling up a second weapon for free or half price, this gets REALLY expensive, really fast, or you're relying on the party casters for a Greater magic Weapon so you've actually got an effective secondary weapon.
Meanwhile the Paladin applies Sword Bond and Smite to any weapon he can lay his hands on, the Ranger can also buff his weapon, and the Barb's rages don't care what he uses.
==Aelryinth
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Again, you're trying to defend something that, without a complete overhaul, just simply won't compare with other classes. It's strawberries and apples here. There's also classes who have had a complete overhaul (UCRogue) and they still fall short to other expectations (but at least the gap was lessened).
You're also trying to treat this AWT to serve as a cure-all to an otherwise broken class, when all it really is, is a band-aid at best to stop a severe laceration of a major artery. I don't know about you, but if I was that guy, I'd take that band-aid and use it until I couldn't use it anymore instead of just bleeding to death. (This is all figuratively speaking, of course.)
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It is crucial to remember that the utility of various abilities are about how much they can come up in actual play, not what they do to your optimized, preferred build. As a result, group playstyle makes a huge difference in how useful an ability is.
This feels dismissive, as like I said, I was talking about actual play experience, not my 'optimal build. I'll admit some games are played at a faster pace (something like Carrion Crown moves at a much faster pace than say Kingmaker), so it can give more value to something, but that value is still low.
Fighters literally swapping out feats to respect to different weapons (with no option to respect weapon training with the same ease, and in some cases planning to change back after specific adventures), players ending up with a randomly selected magic weapon from treasure for at least part of an adventure, disarm, sunder, and the golf-bag of weapons to affect various foes (bypassing DR, shutting down regeneration, and so on) are all things that have an occurrence based on play style, and represent occasions where bonuses (at higher levels often pretty big bonuses) in weapons you *didn't* specialize in can have a significant influence on effectiveness.
While some play styles mean you'd never see any of those things happen, they all DO happen, sometimes quite frequently. And a lot of fighters carry things like silver war hammers, reach weapons, or morningstars to be able to swap weapons when facing werewolf assassins or advanced burning skeletons.
A lot of what you're saying speaks more to a 3.5 paradigm instead of Pathfinder. What PF did with how enchantments work greatly devalues 'golf ball bag' fighters due to the inherent value of +X to a weapon. At, +3 and we strike as cold iron/silver, +4 and we ignore adamantine and alignment, which was one of the major issues of 3.5's damage reduction system.
As for skeletons and "damage type DR", skeletons are generally sitting around DR 5 to 10, and that damage difference really isn't enough to vary whatever weapon you're wielding (not to mention it's not uncommon for weapon groups to lack a secondary damage type in their group), as well as considering the additional damage for going from one's main weapon (which by this point is probably about +1 higher than any substitute), which is constituting about -3 DPR against DR 5/bludgeoning. That isn't even considering if said primary weapon was used for a combat maneuver primarily (such as reach trip weapon or such), although it'd be interesting to see the point where switching weapon would be more valuable.
Not to mention any weapon that you're using as part of a combat maneuver is something you're probably focused on, so you're not generally going to switch between combat maneuvers since not having the prereq feat for them means eating an AOO in most cases, so I can't imagine often finding the need to switch to a trip/sunder/disarm style of playing for longer than a round knowing I was going to get hammered for it.
The alternative for weapon training also stand out due to them just being more fun than a +1/+1, which is a big problem with the fighter being only able to swing a weapon/fire a bow.
I'd still like to see an unchained fighter, but I do like and appreciate what AWTs do. I just don't feel like being told that I'm devaluing WT when in my games (and those of people I have talked to), it's considered a lackluster feature that lacks the flavor of other classes and their class features.
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And there is the fact that a single feat lets you completely ignore the problems of damage type DR with your preferred weapon.
Weapon Versatility. Swift action (and later no action when you get to the point of iteratives) to switch the damage type. Requires weapon focus and BAB+1. So something fighters are well suited to take care of. I am pretty sure it is from the undead hunter's handbook (ie- yes, it is the feat meant to allow you to use a great sword on that skeleton). Fair enough trade for one feat, since bludgeoning weapons are usually 'terrible crits, but useful for DR'.
I think that, by the time you are looking at +3 weapons, your golf bagging days will largely be over. You can buy an adamantine weapon, slap on the +3 to cover cold iron/silver, and heck- oils of bless weapon are dirt cheap at that point if it is an actual problem.
So you can arrange yourself to just ignore most of the side concerns, and only grab the couple weapons which actually bring something to your style- main weapon, ranged weapon (or secondary melee weapon if you are an archer), and maybe something for tricks if it is necessary.
While some play styles mean you'd never see any of those things happen, they all DO happen, sometimes quite frequently. And a lot of fighters carry things like silver war hammers, reach weapons, or morningstars to be able to swap weapons when facing werewolf assassins or advanced burning skeletons.
You really only see this at levels before you get multiple weapon training though. It's not hard to deal various damage types with one weapon and the enchantment bonus itself takes care of the materials. If reach swapping is useful for you, it's much better to take a magic weapon like Fighter's Fork or the Shrinking enchant on a reach weapon [this is even better when using something like Ascetic Form, as the reduces damage is replaced by the feat's damage].
Fighters literally swapping out feats to respec to different weapons.
Unlikely as levels increase because of feat chains. Changing a weapon could literally mean changing every feat you own.
players ending up with a randomly selected magic weapon from treasure for at least part of an adventure
Possible if your the DM forces it in a 'only this weapon kills the big bad' trick. I'd count this as uncommon at best.
disarm, sunder
Possible but the fighter isn't lacking in maneuver defense and if the game is the type that key items are up for destruction, it's fairly easy to make sunders unlikely. Impervious Adamantine weapons make both maneuvers less likely and are cheaper than a second weapon. Locked gauntlets/weapon cords too are MUCH more likely than a golfbag of spare weapons.
Overall, I see playstyles that multiple weapon Training being strong/useful as being pretty fringe. For the vast amount of games I can't see the overlooked value.
@ N. Jolly: Let's also not take into consideration that there is a Fighter-only Feat Chain that specifically allows bypassing physical DR, the Greater of which actually allows bypassing DR 5/-, meaning this whole "secondary weapon" argument only applies to ranged options, tops, and any sane Fighter would be smart enough to carry Winged Boots of Speed or some similar item.
The only other ways to do what that feat chain does is Smite or deal Energy Damage, and I can tell you that Fighters aren't (Anti)Paladins, Hellknights, or Blasters. And those feats require Weapon Focus in a given weapon, and only apply to those weapons you have Weapon Focus for. Let's also not take into consideration Weapon Mastery, Fighter's capstone, which requires you to select one weapon, not one weapon group (or to be more accurate, the Weapon Group with the highest bonus).
That being said, this has been getting me to think more about my Unchained Fighter "build", and I think it's time for a revisit.
The deal breaker on AWTs is the fact that you can't start taking them until level 9 (5 if you spend a feat). In a weird, semi-consistent fashion, the Weapon Master archetype appears to only legally be able to select AWTs via feats because a specific exception was written into the feat to allow it. A couple of the AWTs could easily be replaced with a dip in another class.
Fighter's Tactics = Solo Tactics on the Inquisitor
Dazzling Intimidation = Braggart from Cockatrice Cavaliers
The other issue I have is that the value of several AWTs is directly tied to owning Gloves of Dueling (GoD). Trained Throw, for example, is half a feat at 5, a feat-equivalent at 9, or 2 feats at 9 with GoD. Within the same book, however, you're presented with the Startoss Style chain, which sucks up some feats in exchange for a faster damage bonus. Thus, Trained Throw only matters at 9 or higher, and only if you have GoD, meaning it's not relevant for most of the character's career. Trained Initiative is flat-out worse that Improved Initiative if you don't have GoD, comparable at 9 with. The main bonus here is that it stacks.
IMO, the best AWT, by far, is Versatile Training because it mitigates a specific weakness from the class. A lot of folks talk about Armed Bravery, but Bravery scales poorly unless you devote your chest slot to the Sash of the War Champion - a better feat investment would be Iron Will + Improved Iron Will. If you were concerned about Will saves, you were probably planning on IW anyway.
Ultimately, I agree with Aelryinth and sympathize with Owen: the fighter is a terrible class because it lacks differentiation and specialization straight out the gate, but this is certainly nothing a splat book could fix. To this day, I still cannot understand the decision to make an Unchained Barbarian, but not an Unchained Fighter because of an optional ruleset being added. That said, WMH was a valiant effort and it has a lot of good content that filled specific niches.
Ultimately, I agree with Aelryinth and sympathize with Owen: the fighter is a terrible class because it lacks differentiation and specialization straight out the gate, but this is certainly nothing a splat book could fix. To this day, I still cannot understand the decision to make an Unchained Barbarian, but not an Unchained Fighter because of an optional ruleset being added. That said, WMH was a valiant effort and it has a lot of good content that filled specific niches.
Couldn't agree more. Unchained barbarian should have been a paragraph or two featuring a rewritten rage at best. There was no need for a whole class rewrite. Seems like a wasted opportunity to unchain, or further unchain, something else that was in greater need of help.
A lot of what you're saying speaks more to a 3.5 paradigm instead of Pathfinder. What PF did with how enchantments work greatly devalues 'golf ball bag' fighters due to the inherent value of +X to a weapon. At, +3 and we strike as cold iron/silver, +4 and we ignore adamantine and alignment, which was one of the major issues of 3.5's damage reduction system.
As for skeletons and "damage type DR", skeletons are generally sitting around DR 5 to 10, and that...
Jolly, just a minor note. You need a +5 weapon to ignore Alignment DR. +4 is Adamantine.
As for Ranged Weapons, Clustered Arrow basically trumps any and all DR by 'striking at the same spot'. So, like, why can't melees do that?
==Aelryinth
Ultimately, I agree with Aelryinth and sympathize with Owen: the fighter is a terrible class because it lacks differentiation and specialization straight out the gate, but this is certainly nothing a splat book could fix. To this day, I still cannot understand the decision to make an Unchained Barbarian, but not an Unchained Fighter because of an optional ruleset being added. That said, WMH was a valiant effort and it has a lot of good content that filled specific niches.
The Fighter's ability to 'differentiate and specialize' is based on its access to feats or feat-equivalents.
The problem is the FE's to do the job, which needed to be at least the level of Rage Powers, or the current WTF's (lol) were never given to it.
The fighter's chassis should have addressed the core problems of all melees:
Healing/recovery.
saves
immunities/resistances.
Bonuses for NOT having magic.
Skills.
Movement.
Out of combat stuff to do.
Narrative power.
Once those were addressed, then you simply introduce Feat-Equivalents that allow you to make the kind of Fighter you want to make.
Any Fighter Archetype should have been easy to make with 3 feat-equivalents, no more. One taken at level 1 to switch some profs and initial stuff around, the other at level 2 and 4 tops to set up any scaling benefits properly.
And since everything else the fighter was weak in was already addressed, we would have been fine.
We didn't get the feats, we didn't get the chassis. Barbarians got the feats (Rage Powers) and the chassis, while Paladins and Rangers got the Chassis and SPELLS.
The fighter was instead punished for not being magical at all, winding up with the worst saves, the worst skills, the worst chassis, and no FE's at all, of the base 4 melee classes.
==Aelryinth
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A lot of what you're saying speaks more to a 3.5 paradigm instead of Pathfinder. What PF did with how enchantments work greatly devalues 'golf ball bag' fighters due to the inherent value of +X to a weapon. At, +3 and we strike as cold iron/silver, +4 and we ignore adamantine and alignment, which was one of the major issues of 3.5's damage reduction system.
As for skeletons and "damage type DR", skeletons are generally sitting around DR 5 to 10, and that...
Jolly, just a minor note. You need a +5 weapon to ignore Alignment DR. +4 is Adamantine.
As for Ranged Weapons, Clustered Arrow basically trumps any and all DR by 'striking at the same spot'. So, like, why can't melees do that?
==Aelryinth
Blarg, read the chart wrong, but the point still stands. Probably even MORESO with the additions made by Darksol and lemeres due to the ease of making it around DR.
Clustered shots makes DR a non factor for most ranged characters (I could lose 20 points of damage and be fine with ranged attacks), not to mention how much more feasible it is to 'golfbag' arrows for situations like these,especially with weapon blanch.
A 'clustered shots' for melee would basically negate a lot of concerns, and that's even ignoring the DR ignoring feat brought up earlier. So again, no one's much devaluing Weapon Training, it simply didn't have a large amount of intrinsic value to begin with.
The deal breaker on AWTs is the fact that you can't start taking them until level 9 (5 if you spend a feat). In a weird, semi-consistent fashion, the Weapon Master archetype appears to only legally be able to select AWTs via feats because a specific exception was written into the feat to allow it. A couple of the AWTs could easily be replaced with a dip in another class.
Fighter's Tactics = Solo Tactics on the Inquisitor
Dazzling Intimidation = Braggart from Cockatrice Cavaliers
The other issue I have is that the value of several AWTs is directly tied to owning Gloves of Dueling (GoD). Trained Throw, for example, is half a feat at 5, a feat-equivalent at 9, or 2 feats at 9 with GoD. Within the same book, however, you're presented with the Startoss Style chain, which sucks up some feats in exchange for a faster damage bonus. Thus, Trained Throw only matters at 9 or higher, and only if you have GoD, meaning it's not relevant for most of the character's career. Trained Initiative is flat-out worse that Improved Initiative if you don't have GoD, comparable at 9 with. The main bonus here is that it stacks.
IMO, the best AWT, by far, is Versatile Training because it mitigates a specific weakness from the class. A lot of folks talk about Armed Bravery, but Bravery scales poorly unless you devote your chest slot to the Sash of the War Champion - a better feat investment would be Iron Will + Improved Iron Will. If you were concerned about Will saves, you were probably planning on IW anyway.
Ultimately, I agree with Aelryinth and sympathize with Owen: the fighter is a terrible class because it lacks differentiation and specialization straight out the gate, but this is certainly nothing a splat book could fix. To this day, I still cannot understand the decision to make an Unchained Barbarian, but not an Unchained Fighter because of an optional ruleset being added. That said, WMH was a valiant effort and it has a lot of good content that filled specific niches.
Indeed, the 'proper' way to do things would be to have weapon mastery simply stack on top of normal feats, instead of requiring additional feats.
Armed Bravery? Just have WT stack on Iron Will for a fighter.
Trained Initiative? Just have WT stack on Improved Init for a fighter.
Solves the scaling problem, directly references a class ability, and gives the fighter a unique ability...master of feats. Feats that are so-so for everyone else are AWESOME when used by the fighter.
Instead...the answer became...SPEND MORE FEATS! Of dubious usage since we get ONE OF THEM before 9th level!
Guh.
==Aelryinth
A lot of what you're saying speaks more to a 3.5 paradigm instead of Pathfinder. What PF did with how enchantments work greatly devalues 'golf ball bag' fighters due to the inherent value of +X to a weapon. At, +3 and we strike as cold iron/silver, +4 and we ignore adamantine and alignment, which was one of the major issues of 3.5's damage reduction system.
As for skeletons and "damage type DR", skeletons are generally sitting around DR 5 to 10, and that...
Jolly, just a minor note. You need a +5 weapon to ignore Alignment DR. +4 is Adamantine.
As for Ranged Weapons, Clustered Arrow basically trumps any and all DR by 'striking at the same spot'. So, like, why can't melees do that?
==Aelryinth
Blarg, read the chart wrong, but the point still stands. Probably even MORESO with the additions made by Darksol and lemeres due to the ease of making it around DR.
Clustered shots makes DR a non factor for most ranged characters (I could lose 20 points of damage and be fine with ranged attacks), not to mention how much more feasible it is to 'golfbag' arrows for situations like these,especially with weapon blanch.
A 'clustered shots' for melee would basically negate a lot of concerns, and that's even ignoring the DR ignoring feat brought up earlier. So again, no one's much devaluing Weapon Training, it simply didn't have a large amount of intrinsic value to begin with.
Agreed.
Weapon Training was a convenient scaling paradigm to add +1 to +4 to a variety of effects, such as the AWT feats that have now been proposed.The problem now is 1) we don't get the feats early enough or enough of them, so they are irrelevant and 2) it requires...spending MOAR FEATS!
Ugh. WHY didn't they just take the stamina system of modifying feats and just GIVE it to the fighter, and base it on his armor/weapon/bravery?
Normal feats become uber and scaling; and since it's based off fighter class abilities/numbers, it's not something you can dip.
Meh.
==Aelryinth
Guh. Just looked at Sash of the War Champion again.
For a class specific item (meaning it should have gotten a 10-20% price cut) occupying a slot (chest),
a +1 bonus against Fear saves
and a -1 ACP and Dex to AC (the latter of which will likely never be used)
costs 4000 gp. The same as a cloak of protection +2!
Real value of this thing - Maybe 1k? Tops? I'm more inclined to put it at 500 gp.
==Aelryinth
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I've been playing with an idea where there would effectively be a Martial Focus feat that acts as a gateway feat into the AWTs for fighters without the weapon training ability, but ultimately the option would have to be designed to be an actual cost for the archetyped fighter, and it would have to be designed in a way that non-fighters (including those with effective fighter levels) couldn't gain access to AWTs without significant investment. (Again, I have my ideas but for now that's all they'll be.)
Alternatively, I'd suggest applying the inverse of your logic on Weapon Training to magic items... if that ability is viewed as powerful because it gives the fighter bonuses for every weapon of every type in the category, then some way of getting the same benefits for only one weapon type (e.g. daggers) or even a single weapon (e.g. this particular dagger) would logically be much less powerful.
Thus, you might have something like a magic belt that gave WT/AWT with longswords, a magic weapon property that grants the wielder those abilities, an elixir that provides weapon skills for a limited time, et cetera. All introduce limitations (e.g. belt slot occupied, less room for other weapon enchantments, cost for temporary elixir) while granting much 'narrower' benefits to a wider audience.
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Thus, you might have something like a magic belt that gave WT/AWT with longswords, a magic weapon property that grants the wielder those abilities, an elixir that provides weapon skills for a limited time, et cetera. All introduce limitations (e.g. belt slot occupied, less room for other weapon enchantments, cost for temporary elixir) while granting much 'narrower' benefits to a wider audience.
Oh man, this has given me an idea for something I'd like to do for something along these lines. The idea you're talking about feels similar to the items in the TOB that made you learn maneuvers and such.
Also I don't know if it's just me, but the talk of a fighter swapping weapons a lot feels blasphemous to me. When I play a fighter, I always feel like I AM my weapon, especially once I get my first magic weapon (hopefully looted from a worthy opponent.) Switching weapons feels like swapping identities for me, and that just doesn't jive for me as a fighter player.
It is correct in that most, if not every table, has their own set of rules, and that you would have to adhere to those rules (as well as be able to use said rules to your advantage) if you want to play at that table. But that's not grounds for discounting Aelryinth's arguments, because the rules set that each table uses probably aren't the as-is Core Rules.
If the argument is "Core Rules allow Fighter's Armor Training to be X good or Y bad," then you argue within those confines. Saying that [random GM] at [random table] allowed [random Fighter player] to have Z, or to function as W, is not arguing amongst Core Rules, which means it's not grounds for debunking a given argument that 100% follows the Core Rules.
Should all Fighters play exactly the same? No. But I can assure you that every class has a Cookie Cutter build, and that if there is one thing about Cookie Cutter builds; they're very damn common, and are played almost constantly at one or another table. It's actually basic courtesy to reference Cookie Cutter builds to players who are new to the game and are asking for advice as to what would be a good way to play X.
I will also add that a lot of these outlandish subjects (i.e. this thread contents, Dexterity to damage, etc.) weren't even introduced to the game until a much later date (i.e. today), meaning the ratio of players with Y build (i.e. the Cookie Cutter build) will be much larger than players who have X build, which was not even available until [random Core book] was released. So the arguments of "Not every build is the same" only rings hallow when you actually have the options in the first place, something that wasn't really available when it was just Core Rulebook, Beastiary, and Game Master's Guide. And might I add, there are quite a few tables and PFS groups that still play that way.
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What armor training allows you to do is not take celestial plate, and instead wear something like adamantine full plate of fortification. You'll have the same ac, be 75% immune to crits and sneak attack, and have dr 3.
Is it the best ability? No. But it's use is to let you wear something other than the bog standard Mithral/celestial armor.
You can wear adamantine full celestial plate of heavy fortification. The flying and AC boost are cash abilities, not +'s. Heavy fort turns it from base +3 armor to +8 is all.
You'll then be good through a 20 Dex, and don't need a fighter's dex to AC to have the EXACT SAME AC he does.
And yeah, the DR he gets at 19 doesn't stack with his adamantine armor, so tell me why a fighter is going to use adamantine armor at the end of his career, again?
i.e. Imbicatus, that argument has been made many times, too. It comes down to the fact that a major class feature can be replaced by a small amount of gold isn't a class feature that has much value to it.
It's directly analogous to "What if there were a magic ring you could buy for 4k that let you have your Charisma bonus to all saves?"
Suddenly, nobody would care about a Paladin's divine Grace.
What if there were a magic item you could buy for 4k that let you Rage as a barbarian of equal level?
If there was a magic item that let you gain favored enemy bonuses, and you could buy as many different ones as you wanted for 2k each?
And similar stuff.
I mean, seriously. Look at the cost of a ring of evasion -25,000 gp. A truly minor, situational class ability. It ONLY affects Reflex saves for taking damage, whereas AC affects every single attack roll made against you, ever.
The cost of mithral is 9000 gp, tops, for heavy armor. For celestial armor, it works out to pretty much the same amount as a fxed cost.
For a tithe of the cost, you get a massive benefit. The class feature of Armor Training for Dex/ACP is WAY overvalued.
And jeez, look at the war sash of the champion. For a Dex/ACP bonus he likely can't use of +1, and a +1 to Fear saves, would YOU pay 4,000 gp?
==Aelryinth
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And he's saying that at all levels the Fighter's Dex will be lower than his available options of armor.
lv1-2 no difference.
lv 3-6, you have like maybe lv3 when you can't afford mithral.
lv 7+ you can afford mithral
And he's assuming a standard 20pt buy going str based. since that was really the only valid option when the class was created.
And jeez, look at the war sash of the champion. For a Dex/ACP bonus he likely can't use of +1, and a +1 to Fear saves, would YOU pay 4,000 gp?
==Aelryinth
Funny thing, I almost would, if 4k was something I could afford at level 3. That item would be fantastic for those 4 levels between 3 & 7 if you wanted to wear a heavy armor early. But because of the cost, you can't get it until around 7, and at that point armor training isn't doing any more for you by advancing farther because you already have the movement benefit...
From this it seems that, overall, being able to apply an ability to any item is being overvalued. Considering you only have one set at a time, and you (probably) don't change gear every session, it really is not worth a whole lot.
Be nice if the fighter's DR stacked with that of adamantine armor...Oh speaking of the fighter's DR, why does the barbarian get scaling dr but the fighter gets it all loaded at level 19? I expect it's because of what levels class features are supposed to appear and that's the only place the fighter has free.
I suppose this is straying off topic a bit. On the topic of the thread, I find it hard to consider taking classes that trade away weapon training. The benefits from advanced training are solid, but you can't even take the advanced training feat unless you take the additional feat provided in the book.
The fighter not getting scaling DR in armor is another very sore point.
The ONLY way adamantine armor is worthwhile is if it stacked with Fighter DR. DR 3/- at the time you can finally afford it (12k, or something?) is NOTHING, where the +2 AC from Mithral is actually helpful.
Without it stacking, no Fighter EVER has a reason to take adamantine armor at high levels.
0f course, they don't NEED To take mithral, either, meaning both kinds of material for armor are often useless for them at higher levels. Bah.
==Aelryinth
