[Eric Morton Presents] Custom Class Builder Playtest

[Epic Meepo]

Welcome to the playtest thread for the Custom Class Builder Preview. While the rules in this PDF have been playtested as much as possible by the designer, they allow more choices than any one person or group could playtest in a lifetime of gaming. Accordingly, any feedback from readers is greatly appreciated, and will be taken into account when finalizing the full version of the Custom Class Builder, which is scheduled for release in late 2016.

Note: This thread is being posted a few days before the Custom Class Builder Preview is released so text in that preview can be hyperlinked back to this thread. I will post a link to the preview once it is available for download. The preview will be released a few days after this post as a 64-page, pay-what-you-want PDF product.

[christos gurd]

This should be interesting

[Lord Mhoram]

Can't wait to see this.

[Epic Meepo]

The Custom Class Builder Preview is now available for download here.

As mentioned above, this is a pay-what-you-want product. Grab it for free, or support my efforts to complete the full version of the Custom Class Builder by chipping in if you have a few bucks to spare. Either way, thanks for reading. Feel free to leave your comments about the preview here in this thread.

[Lord Mhoram]

Grabbed it, and did a once over - didn't read all the talents. A little limited from what I was expecting; but that isn't a bad thing - using the hit die to balance the various thing was a great idea.

I will be playing with it over the next week or two.

And this may be when hybrid stuff comes out, or a talent I missed, but how would you make something like the monk that has 3 good saves.

That is actually one of the things that I look at in retrofit construction system like this - can you use it to duplicate all the official classes (or duplicate them and add extra if they seem weaker). That was probably my first tinkering build the core classes with the system.

On first read very promising.

[necromental]

I grabbed it but only had about 15 minutes to read it for now. Really liked the fair save progression, and like Lord Mhoram said nice way of using Hit Die to balance it all. Still a bit lost in the technicalities of the system (my brain's all fuzzy, having a 2week old daughter - not bragging around at all :), but first thing I'm interested for now (and don't have time to check), is it possible to build a standard Inquisitor using this system as it is now?

I also sent the pdf to my friend, who's favorite hobby is building new characters, to try it. Will get back when I have some more useful feedback either from him or from myself.

[Crai]

Being a huge fan of Eric Morton Presents Animal Races ... I picked up the Class Builder and I'll be reading up on it and playtesting it with one of my groups next week.

[Epic Meepo]

Lord Mhoram wrote:

And this may be when hybrid stuff comes out, or a talent I missed, but how would you make something like the monk that has 3 good saves.

The various monk talents aren't included in the preview. One of those talents will allow you to turn a class with three fair saves into a class with three good saves, instead. (The hybrid class type, which is unrelated to monks, is what you would use to create a mystic theurge base class.)

Lord Mhoram wrote:

That is actually one of the things that I look at in retrofit construction system like this - can you use it to duplicate all the official classes ...

I wouldn't describe the Custom Class Builder as a retrofit construction system. In fact, there are several existing classes I consider so poorly designed (for different reasons), I don't particularly want the Custom Class Builder to create them. You can't currently build a d8 Hit Die full caster, for example, nor can you build a class with only 2 + Int modifier skill ranks per level. Unless there is a huge outcry for those options during the playtest, I don't plan on including them.

That being said, the full version of the Custom Class Builder includes an archetype creation process where you use an existing class as your starting point, then modify it by adding and subtracting class features. So if you have your heart set on creating a d8 Hit Die full caster with 2 + Int modifier skill ranks per level that looks very much like a cleric or druid, you can just start with a cleric or druid and build from there.

necromental wrote:

... first thing I'm interested for now (and don't have time to check), is it possible to build a standard Inquisitor using this system as it is now?

The rules for judgments aren't included in the preview. In the full rules, you can't exactly recreate the inquisitor (though you can come very close). You can, however, start with the standard inquisitor and modify it using the archetype creation process mentioned above.

[GM Rednal]

I picked up a copy of the playtest document, and I like what I see so far. I'm glad that we got brief descriptive lists for the talents, because otherwise it would be waaaaaaay too time-consuming to build anything. XD It looks quite solid thus far, though! I might just try building a few NPCs with it when I have some time...

[Lord Mhoram]

Epic Meepo wrote:

Lord Mhoram wrote:

That is actually one of the things that I look at in retrofit construction system like this - can you use it to duplicate all the official classes ...

I wouldn't describe the Custom Class Builder as a retrofit construction system.

Thanks for the responses, I kinda figured they would be in the full system. And I completely understand about making better classes than badly designed ones. When I mentioned replicating classes I was mostly thinking "This class or more" :)

I apologize for using the word retrofit - that wasn't exactly what I had in mind. I was trying to convey the idea that the construction engine was used after a system was created, to be able to make things that are parts of the system - as opposed to classes being created that was from the core system. A reverse engineered system may have been closer.

I can't wait until I really dig into this. I've been a HERO player for decades and I love diving into intricate systems and seeing how everything fits together and balances. What I see here has great potential.

[Epic Meepo]

Lord Mhoram wrote:

When I mentioned replicating classes I was mostly thinking "This class or more" :)

Well, you can definitely do that. :)

In fact, building a better fighter is explicitly mentioned in Chapter 1. (You could easily build a "fighter" class with d12 as its Hit Die, two good saves, and 4 + Int modifier skill ranks per level if your GM thinks the existing fighter needs a boost.)

I'll be curious to see what other "improved" classes you come up with.

[JonathonWilder]

I am interested in this archetype builder within the class builder, as there are a few ideas I have for characters that art a strong fit for any of the current classes or archetypes... at least they don't come together fully.

It would also be helpful because you can get rid of the class features you don't care for with those in which you would want for the class.

If I am able to, I will try my hand at using the playtest and checking how it works. Starting with a less combative cleric that focuses more on 'divine power' over being able to go toe to toe with opponants in battle. That or priests of different focus, more fitting for the deity they worship.

[Epic Meepo]

JonathonWilder wrote:

... priests of different focus, more fitting for the deity they worship.

As a matter of fact, a class that does exactly this is mentioned as one of the examples in Step 6 of the class creation process. (It works best with the full version of the Custom Class Builder, which includes dozens of additional themes you can assign to various deities.)

[Valkyn Highwind]

How can you rebuild a class like the fighter with this? Unless I missed something in the pdf you can't have two thematic talents per level.

[Valkyn Highwind]

Query withdrawn as I just found the answer myself.

[Valkyn Highwind]

Here's an in progress class design of mine that I've drawn up using the preview file. It doesn't have a name at the moment so expect a ton of "<class>" placeholders. The class is an arcane caster (up through 6th-Lv Sorc/Wiz spells) with overtones from the fighter class. Hopefully different enough from the Magus to make both viable in a game.

Valkyn's CCBP First Class Design

I do intend on finishing/polishing this off to a more usable state.

[Flame Effigy]

Dotted and downloaded. Will give feedback first chance I get.

[Valkyn Highwind]

I'm stuck on a class name for what I came up with, and will entertain suggestions for it IN PM's ONLY so as to not clutter the thread.

[Valkyn Highwind]

The more I look at this playtest the more ideas I get. Some of which require information that will be in the full document. My first class idea may change with the release of this book, and is making me hold off working on it. I do love the idea of being able to make the class I want to play rather than relying on already released classes. I look forward to seeing all the options that will be available in the future.

[Lord Mhoram]

Valkyn Highwind wrote:

The more I look at this playtest the more ideas I get. Some of which require information that will be in the full document. My first class idea may change with the release of this book, and is making me hold off working on it. I do love the idea of being able to make the class I want to play rather than relying on already released classes. I look forward to seeing all the options that will be available in the future.

That is part of my problem - I've had like 6 or 7 ideas, but I can't build any of them in the playtest.

[Epic Meepo]

Lord Mhoram wrote:

Valkyn Highwind wrote:

The more I look at this playtest the more ideas I get. Some of which require information that will be in the full document. My first class idea may change with the release of this book, and is making me hold off working on it. I do love the idea of being able to make the class I want to play rather than relying on already released classes. I look forward to seeing all the options that will be available in the future.

That is part of my problem - I've had like 6 or 7 ideas, but I can't build any of them in the playtest.

Is the class creation process itself holding you back, or do your ideas simply rely upon themes and talents that were not published in the preview?

[Lord Mhoram]

Epic Meepo wrote:

Lord Mhoram wrote:

Valkyn Highwind wrote:

The more I look at this playtest the more ideas I get. Some of which require information that will be in the full document. My first class idea may change with the release of this book, and is making me hold off working on it. I do love the idea of being able to make the class I want to play rather than relying on already released classes. I look forward to seeing all the options that will be available in the future.

That is part of my problem - I've had like 6 or 7 ideas, but I can't build any of them in the playtest.

Is the class creation process itself holding you back, or do your ideas simply rely upon themes and talents that were not published in the preview?

Themes and Talents.

In addition to the Paizo stuff I have purchased a lot of 3rd party material - with over 75 3PP base classes (at a rough guess). My ideas tend to be different than any of that, as that ground is already covered in my mind - so they tend to be a little esoteric. the playtest is great for variations and combinations of things we have, but not for esoteric ideas... I would assume the full version is.

After tearing apart and rebuilding HERO in order to completely understand how it hangs together and playing that for 30 years or so, the actual class creation process is easy to get. And it also works as a restraint - I've had a number of classes I have half built that as I was putting together some elements I couldn't do, then in looking it back over, realized that likely would have been overpowered. I guess the only class creation process itself acts as restraint for OP classes; I really like that about.

[Valkyn Highwind]

Epic Meepo wrote:

Is the class creation process itself holding you back, or do your ideas simply rely upon themes and talents that were not published in the preview?

Some ideas need options that aren't in the preview.

Also, when choosing saving throws in Step 3 do you have choose a second good save if you are allowed more than one?

[Epic Meepo]

Lord Mhoram wrote:

Themes and Talents.

Unfortunately, I don't have a good solution to the "what themes and talents to include in the preview" problem. There are hundreds of pages of themes and talents. No matter which sample I add to the preview, there are going to be readers who are still waiting for That One Theme that isn't in the preview.

Valkyn Highwind wrote:

Also, when choosing saving throws in Step 3 do you have choose a second good save if you are allowed more than one?

The original wording of the saving throw section said, "you may choose a second saving throw" (as in, you don't have to if you don't want to) but it seems to have been changed in editing. The original wording was more permissive, so I'll probably switch back to that for the final product.

[Lord Mhoram]

Epic Meepo wrote:

Lord Mhoram wrote:

Themes and Talents.

Unfortunately, I don't have a good solution to the "what themes and talents to include in the preview" problem. There are hundreds of pages of themes and talents. No matter which sample I add to the preview, there are going to be readers who are still waiting for That One Theme that isn't in the preview.

Understood.

I really like the underlying concepts, and how it works. I will keep looking at this, and I plan to get the full thing when it comes out.

[JonathonWilder]

You know, this custom class build reminds me of the HERO system with how one can have so many options and choices to have your own class or build.

[Lord Mhoram]

JonathonWilder wrote:

You know, this custom class build reminds me of the HERO system with how one can have so many options and choices to have your own class or build.

It is much more limited than HERO, but the similarities are why I like it. You are just building the class upfront, and not the character.

[Valkyn Highwind]

Valkyn Highwind wrote:

Old Design: Valkyn's CCBP First Class Design

Since I'd posted the link above to my first class idea I've done a little tinkering with it. Also, I've added a low level sample npc to the file for those that want to try the class as an opposition to their players.

So now I give you my class, the Templar and the npc Victor Dunmull. I hope you enjoy them in their still semi-polished state.

[Crai]

Hey Eric.

I was just wondering if you have an update on the status of the publishing of the final product. Or on further playtesting, etc.

Thank you!

[Valkyn Highwind]

Valkyn Highwind wrote:

So now I give you my class, the Templar and the npc Victor Dunmull. I hope you enjoy them in their still semi-polished state.

I should know better than to mess with working files on my google drive. I broke the above link to my Templar class. Here is the new one.

[Here4daFreeSwag]

Good to see some free templars. ;)

[Valkyn Highwind]

Thanks. It was heavily inspired after watching Artanis fight in a Legacy of the Void (Starcraft 2) cutscene. All the teleporting around.

[DrNegative]

Any word on when the complete version will be released. It's the end of the year and I'm excited.

[TheAlicornSage]

I forgot about this. Never did get to download it (not giving payment info when I'm not buying, especially as I don't have a safe card to use online).

I do have a related thread. Probably all feedback either you got or that doesn't apply, but there might be something good in there for ya.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o44s?DarkLight-Hitomis-Custom-Class-Rules#1

[DrNegative]

Hi. I'm back. Anything new to report, or has this project died?