They're too long for me, about 50% too long I think. 4 books instead of 6 would be much better, and for PF probably levels 1-10 instead of 1-15 as the default - few as written have the scope to accommodate levels 11+ properly. 4 books covering levels 1-3, 4-6, 7-8 and 9-10 would be ideal for a typical AP designed to be played in a year.
The spoilers in this thread are getting really bad.
Could that please be cleaned up?
Something like that really sucks, so please keep it at a minimum and use spoiler tags!
A thing that could really be improved a bit:
In AP´s, modules and even PFS scenarios there is often a lot of information that nobody knows if it is GM only or not.
Very often it would make sense though if players can at least find out about it or are somehow being told, find clues or books or whatever.
It might be a good thing to "tag" GM only info and info the GMs are supposed to communicate somehow as such.
Many GMs don´t do that, because they don´t even get the idea.
Ways to communicate the info might also be a good thing. Doesn´t need to be much or a special system like the "rumors".
"Shares this info" would already work.
That would in most cases deepen the roleplay and color the world a bit more.
As for APs being too long...
In a game where system mastery is at least 50%, noobs and casuals are certainly not the main factor. (That´s supposed to be friendly, because people who don´t bother to read the rules should not be in input positions there. I met more than enough players in PFS and otherwise who didn´t even bother to read the class they were playing completely, let alone some other rules etc. Or people who complain about Golarion without ever reading up on it.)
On that note more streamlining again like in Unchained is certainly no bad idea either.
For people who really feel this way though, picking mini arcs from the PFS scenarios or combining some modules might be a good thing.
Perhaps Paizo will even consider doing module arcs again.
Personally I dont think that they were too long.
I think that if people are complaining about AP's being too long maybe there's enough interest (or not) for a 3rd party company to do shorter more focused Adventure Paths that can be dropped into the existing campaign world sans Paizo IP of course.
Perhaps Paizo will even consider doing module arcs again.
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I'm on the no their not to long side a GM can always cut content not of interest to their group but having a nice long campaign from lvl 1 to lvl X appeals to me. To be honest I've even been a little sad when I saw some stuff cut from some of the AP's (Spider garden in Jade Reagent) for space concerns. I really, really, really the continue campaign suggestions and enjoy games where there is no end point.
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Its not just games either books, tv shows, real life I get a bit bugged by all the rush, rush, rush get it done fast attitude I like a nice long slow development and having a campaign I can play for the next few years.
In fact I'm reading a comic currently where the author was trying for a slow character development and people were posting complaining it was too long and to get to the point already. Our world of instant gratification I guess but give me a world to escape into where there's a nice long future and races who think short term planning is 5 years and having a hundred year plan is a nice time frame to develop things over.
I also like that I know that each AP will have a couple of gazeteers, some ecology articles, new monsters, a couple of diety write ups, and a scattering of random articles.
Actually, I don't like that random crap in my AP books. I would rather have a longer AP that took the campaign up to 20th level.
I'm on the no their not to long side a GM can always cut content not of interest to their group but having a nice long campaign from lvl 1 to lvl X appeals to me. To be honest I've even been a little sad when I saw some stuff cut from some of the AP's (Spider garden in Jade Reagent) for space concerns. I really, really, really the continue campaign suggestions and enjoy games where there is no end point.
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Its not just games either books, tv shows, real life I get a bit bugged by all the rush, rush, rush get it done fast attitude I like a nice long slow development and having a campaign I can play for the next few years.In fact I'm reading a comic currently where the author was trying for a slow character development and people were posting complaining it was too long and to get to the point already. Our world of instant gratification I guess but give me a world to escape into where there's a nice long future and races who think short term planning is 5 years and having a hundred year plan is a nice time frame to develop things over.
That´s the elves nice traditionaly. Samsarans might fit in too.
AP´s can be prolonged by modules and other additional adventures and side quests, as well as by doing them on the slow experience track.
That´requires a lot of GM work though, especially to hold the plot together.
I think that´s something most people who only play don´t realize. Running a campaign over a very long time, several years, with lots of side plots, NPC interactions and developments etc, where you also need to keep track of things, is an incredible amount of work.
Then there are things like maps, encounters, balance, as well as the main plot and how strong the party becomes to keep track of.
That´s easily asked for, yet hard to provide.
And becomes harder with every bit of entitlement, additional resources, sandbox wishes, player input content, etc.
I just had someone over here complain about Pathfinder, because their Shattered Star Campaign became boring, due to them playing with mythic rules and some "powergamers"...
Actually, I don't like that random crap in my AP books. I would rather have a longer AP that took the campaign up to 20th level.
I also like that I know that each AP will have a couple of gazeteers, some ecology articles, new monsters, a couple of diety write ups, and a scattering of random articles.
Part of the reason APs don't reach level 20 is that there is plenty of "breather" material that exists to whittle down player resources. One thing I hinted at and another player commented on, and James Jacobs himself took interest in, was that of a "Hard Mode" AP - where the encounters are all AP+1 or more. No easy fights, just tough fight after tough fight after tough fight.
You end up with more experience earned for each encounter which allows for a higher end-level. We may even see this done in a future AP - and given that enacting a Hard Mode AP is easier than eliminating the extra content, we may see this sooner rather than later.
That said... we do have a problem with people wanting to level quickly and finish an AP faster. No doubt if a third party came up with a Level 1-20 Slow Advancement AP, it wouldn't be as popular among players because they take much longer to level up... and the AP would likely take over a year to play even with weekly games. It would be fun for us old-school gamers, though. :)
I can see hard mode AP´s without additional experience, aka awarding levels at key points, for completely different reasons...
Creative Director
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I'm honestly not sure a "hard mode" WOULD let you get to 20th level; not without artificially inflating XP awards now and then along the way via ad-hoc story awards.
The simple truth is that when we were designing Pathfinder, the idea of "building an XP Progression that allows for the progression from 1st to 20th level in the span of what we can create in an AP over the course of 6 months" was not factored into things. In hindsight, it sure should have been, but hindsight as they say is not 20/20.
Coming up with a "faster than fast" track might be a solution as well, of course, but then folks would be frustrated that leveling went too quickly... :P
I think the leveling when it´s opportune for the story etc is best actually. Same goes for loot and other rewards.
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I'm honestly not sure a "hard mode" WOULD let you get to 20th level; not without artificially inflating XP awards now and then along the way via ad-hoc story awards.
The simple truth is that when we were designing Pathfinder, the idea of "building an XP Progression that allows for the progression from 1st to 20th level in the span of what we can create in an AP over the course of 6 months" was not factored into things. In hindsight, it sure should have been, but hindsight as they say is not 20/20.
Coming up with a "faster than fast" track might be a solution as well, of course, but then folks would be frustrated that leveling went too quickly... :P
Like you said leveling too quickly might detract from the game instead of adding to it. You guys did level 1-12 for CoT; why not have APs that are level 12-20? (instead of shoehorning level 1-20 at a pace that doesn't make sense)
Plus, I'm tired of 20 year old PCs who end up saving the world. If 60 is the new 40, then 20 is the new freaggin' 14, as far as my neighbour's kids goes, anyways...
(sure, in the middle age times, boyz were men at 12, etc.)
My point is that most APs happen over a year's time or so... with 20 year old PCs going from level 1 to 20... hmmm... what happens at age 22 to 50? deep depression and beer gut? re-training to expert levels with Skill Focus: Chug?
I'm in the prefer to start at 1st level camp, it's just easier.
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I'm in the prefer to start at 1st level camp, it's just easier.
Look, I get it. There's some kind of positive emotion component to joining a game "at level 1", on the ground floor, at the beginning, etc. But how long has it been since the release of 3E? 16 years? come on, at this point, a lot of us have seen and felt that level 1 feel by now, countless times.
Plus, you have to remember that Paizo has a module line too, and that there are homecampaigns out there.
Honestly, I think the average AP subscriber would be ready for something new in terms of format. But I get it, there's a strong sentiment towards keeping the format the same, etc. Lots of people want that level 1 feel etc.
Personally, as a GM, I find it so freaggin' easy to run a level 1 game and pull a few low level monsters out of the books when I need them. The intro of characters, the hardship event that bonded them all together, etc. Where I'd get the most bang for my bucks would be high level adventure design, as this would take a lot of my personal time to do. Statting high level monsters and NPCs is where it starts feeling like a job for me, so I'd love it if Paizo would do more of that for me.
I'm 100% behind a level 20 hard mode AP, btw. Not a level 1-20 AP. Some of us can't clear our calendars for that long; many groups tend not to see these long ass APs to their end...
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Actually, I don't like that random crap in my AP books. I would rather have a longer AP that took the campaign up to 20th level.
I also like that I know that each AP will have a couple of gazeteers, some ecology articles, new monsters, a couple of diety write ups, and a scattering of random articles.
I kind of agree, but for a different reason. I want that crap somewhere us players can find it ;)
As a player, I've never touched an AP book and to find out that there are fun stories and deity write ups that fill the blanks of the god books kind of annoyed me.
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Look, I get it. There's some kind of positive emotion component to joining a game "at level 1", on the ground floor, at the beginning, etc. But how long has it been since the release of 3E? 16 years? come on, at this point, a lot of us have seen and felt that level 1 feel by now, countless times.
Plus, you have to remember that Paizo has a module line too, and that there are homecampaigns out there.
Honestly, I think the average AP subscriber would be ready for something new in terms of format. But I get it, there's a strong sentiment towards keeping the format the same, etc. Lots of people want that level 1 feel etc.
Personally, as a GM, I find it so freaggin' easy to run a level 1 game and pull a few low level monsters out of the books when I need them. The intro of characters, the hardship event that bonded them all together, etc. Where I'd get the most bang for my bucks would be high level adventure design, as this would take a lot of my personal time to do. Statting high level monsters and NPCs is where it starts feeling like a job for me, so I'd love it if Paizo would do more of that for me.
I'm 100% behind a level 20 hard mode AP, btw. Not a level 1-20 AP. Some of us can't clear our calendars for that long; many groups tend not to see these long ass APs to their end...
They could do both actually.
A large-sized format module that runs from level 1-4/5 that can serve as a stand alone adventure, but also key's into an associated AP that starts at 4th (1st part) and runs to 18th level (6th part).Purist can run the prologue module as a sort of 7 part AP, while those who want to start higher - or more importantly want it to end higher get what they want (and skip the low level prologue).
It would play a little havoc with the release schedule, but it would allow for some more connectivity from start to finish overall since more time is spent on the source material (and supporting products) for the theme/region of the AP.
I'm honestly not sure a "hard mode" WOULD let you get to 20th level; not without artificially inflating XP awards now and then along the way via ad-hoc story awards.
The first part of WotR was non-Mythic and yet had players end at level 5 even before the free level up for curb-stomping a dozen or so demons.
With a Hard Mode, it could get close to level 6 or possibly even at level 6 assuming a story reward.
Book 2 could likely have players at level 8 if the fluff encounters are eliminated and players instead are fighting for their lives for each encounter. They could even be pushing toward 9 depending on how things go. And seeing that Mummy's Mask has shown you can give players major artifacts... an artifact that made it hard for players to stay dead or that gave the entire group an effect like spending 2 Hero Points would let you push harder encounters against the players.
I agree with PDK. Generally, I like starting as the underdog and clawing my way up the levels. But other times, I kind of want to be a bad ass from the get go. Or at least more competent.
That said, the modules have been pretty good about this. Since they made them bigger and quarterly with Dragon's Demand, we've had eight modules that start between 3-11, so that's good.
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Actually, I don't like that random crap in my AP books. I would rather have a longer AP that took the campaign up to 20th level.
I also like that I know that each AP will have a couple of gazeteers, some ecology articles, new monsters, a couple of diety write ups, and a scattering of random articles.Part of the reason APs don't reach level 20 is that there is plenty of "breather" material that exists to whittle down player resources. One thing I hinted at and another player commented on, and James Jacobs himself took interest in, was that of a "Hard Mode" AP - where the encounters are all AP+1 or more. No easy fights, just tough fight after tough fight after tough fight.
You end up with more experience earned for each encounter which allows for a higher end-level. We may even see this done in a future AP - and given that enacting a Hard Mode AP is easier than eliminating the extra content, we may see this sooner rather than later.
That said... we do have a problem with people wanting to level quickly and finish an AP faster. No doubt if a third party came up with a Level 1-20 Slow Advancement AP, it wouldn't be as popular among players because they take much longer to level up... and the AP would likely take over a year to play even with weekly games. It would be fun for us old-school gamers, though. :)
Honestly I doubt I could find enough people interested and able to invest the time to play an AP that used the slow progression track (or slower) and still got your to 20th level. Not even sure I have the time these day's I rarely get to play because of my work schedule still I can dream.
Well, 3e/3.5 had a much faster XP track. If one used that track as the Faster than Fast AP track, or Paizo adopted something like that for an AP, that probably could be a faster than fast XP track.
People used to utilize that track all the time before PF.
I'm about to start a campaign combining two APs (Runelords + Shattered Star), which could be several years of fortnightly play. The reason I don't think it will feel too long is that by combining APs it becomes an open campaign with genuine choice in what the players do.
The big problem I found running Crimson Throne was length + linearity; the feeling of PCs being shuffled along through the AP from one waypoint to the next. To combat this I think genuine sandboxy openness is vital, the players feeling that they don't have to do X and the campaign will still continue.
Like you said leveling too quickly might detract from the game instead of adding to it. You guys did level 1-12 for CoT; why not have APs that are level 12-20? (instead of shoehorning level 1-20 at a pace that doesn't make sense)
Plus, I'm tired of 20 year old PCs who end up saving the world. If 60 is the new 40, then 20 is the new freaggin' 14, as far as my neighbour's kids goes, anyways...
(sure, in the middle age times, boyz were men at 12, etc.)
My point is that most APs happen over a year's time or so... with 20 year old PCs going from level 1 to 20... hmmm... what happens at age 22 to 50? deep depression and beer gut? re-training to expert levels with Skill Focus: Chug?
I kinda agree on some points with you and I think some of my players might enjoy feeling more powerful from the get go, but to me APs are more about building your character and I think it's much more fulfilling to win an epic battle to save whatever your PCs hold dear to their heart, if they have come from humble beginnings.
Also starting an AP at level 12 would be terrible for new players, so even if you are pandering to a specific group of players, (mostly veterans, who'd like to skip the simple encounters and skip to something more "interesting") you'd eliminate another group of players (potential newcomers). I don't know if that would be worth it for Paizo.
I'd like to ask, if you don't enjoy designing high-level encounters, why don't you string together modules with similar themes? It shouldn't be that hard to build a narrative between modules, if they are well chosen. (That's what I would do. I also have problems designing encounters, but building narratives seems way simpler to me)
I agree on the age thing, but I think it's hard to factor in a long span of time, if you try to tell a cohesive story. The only APs I've seen where you can circumvent that problem are Kingmaker and Hell's Rebels.
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I'd like to ask, if you don't enjoy designing high-level encounters, why don't you string together modules with similar themes? It shouldn't be that hard to build a narrative between modules, if they are well chosen. (That's what I would do. I also have problems designing encounters, but building narratives seems way simpler to me)
That's exactly what I'm doing now. It's more research and preparation than I had originally anticipated though. The "stringing" has to make sense to be somewhat believable. I'm the kind of GM that likes to include elements from each PC's backstory, so it adds to the complexity, and I'll soon need a big 'whodunnit' style wall in my house with every NPC face pinned with a bunch of strings linking various parties... :P
I agree on the age thing, but I think it's hard to factor in a long span of time, if you try to tell a cohesive story. The only APs I've seen where you can circumvent that problem are Kingmaker and Hell's Rebels.
I think I have a few ways to help with that in my campaign, but basically, as GMs who love to play in Golarion and have a pretty good grip on the world's geography, how often do we look at the map anyway when trying to figure things out? pretty often in my case, so it got me wondering, 'What's the state of cartography (quality of map and access to maps for the average Joe) in Golarion?' A recent Pathfinder Companion (heroes of the streets I think) prices out the map of a single city at 50 gp. If you have a quest where they must cross 5 countries to get somewhere, this will cost a pretty penny in maps and/or transit/guide fees. And the time to research this information will be considerable. I'm gonna say you can't even do this if you're in small towns or less populated areas (arguable that large towns could even have libraries/services for that).
From my player's perspective, I'm gonna skip such boring minutia and just come up with a price tag and time component. But every time they 'wind down' from an adventure, I'm gonna make it clear there's lots of down time available while the party bard or wizard is looking into these things, which is gonna open up some opportunities for crafters and professionals.
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Good question about the maps aside from magical ones that do their own mapping I vaguely recall historically they tended to be fairly good at large features (country borders, mountains, rivers, major cities) but not 100% accurate espeically if its something that shifts a bit like a river's course and there would be large clumps of "Here be monsters" on uncharted terrain and smaller things like villagers would have a good chance of not being recorded.
I definitely disagree with the concept that the AP's are too long. The whole point is that most of my players LIKE to be able to reach the upper levels, and they never do! So, why not make a campaign that lasts to 20th level, just ONCE?!
Maybe if you gave up the extra material in the AP's and upped the xp progression rate to fast we might at least have a shot, eh?
They did that. It's called Wrath of the Righteous.
And you can pull Mythic out, give players regenerating Hero Points, and you replicate a lot of what Mythic did and lessen how it becomes a curbstomp at points.
They did that. It's called Wrath of the Righteous.
And you can pull Mythic out, give players regenerating Hero Points, and you replicate a lot of what Mythic did and lessen how it becomes a curbstomp at points.
From what I've read about the AP itself, it doesn't reach 20th level.
Moreover, it's specifically made to be used with the Mythic rules. To be honest, I really don't want to have to totally rework the game rules in order to play an AP. That's not why I buy AP's; I want a premade campaign that I and my players can enjoy without working at it too hard.
Sigh. Apparently it's too much to ask for an AP to go to 20th level. Dammit.
It does go up to 20, I have it, and can confirm it does, and it doesn't need mythic adventures at all (tho it is a fun book).
From page 6 of City of Locusts, advancement track
"The PCs should be 20th level by the time they begin exploring X" obviously, I'm not giving spoilers away, so you'll have to find out what X is yourself. :-)
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Running an AP before reading thoroughly all 6 books is a bad idea. And yes, I'm speaking from experience. *looks at Serpent's Skull*I did this with Carrion Crown...
If you're like me and you freestyle your NPCs to make them feel like believable beings, then knowing too much of the plot ahead of time can be bad too! :P
(i.e. had a few NPCs 'talk too much' to the PCs along the years... lol)
I would absolutely not mind Paizo doing some more Dragon or Dungeon style stuff. Maybe something closer to what Dragon used to be—some adventures, some new rules from freelancers, y'know, variety.
Then again, magazines about D&D don't seem to have been doing well lately. :(
Wait, sorry—
APS ARE WAY TOO LONG!!!!
I think APs are way too short. At the moment we two GMs who alternate between the APs. I also write and occasionally GM for a campaign that is currently on it's 16th year.
However I've read a lot of comments on this thread that say too short and a lot of comments on this thread that say too long. So, if I were Paizo, I would assume that the APs were just about the right length.
Personally I would like APs to run on slow advancement as well.
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I'd love another 1 to 20 AP. That's how Dragon did it, that's how America does it, and it's worked out pretty well so far.
Actually, it's how Dungeon did it. Before shutting down.
I don't think they are too long but then I'd like to play one that went from 1st level all the way up to 20th rather than petering out mid teens.
I have noticed however, that the middle sections of most published AP's don't quite work very well and slow down the pace a little too much might help explain why they may feel like they drag out.
Other than wrapping up at higher levels the only thing that I would like to see different in future AP's is time for downtime and the opportunity to actually shop. AP's seem to be rather fast paced with little time built in for the characters to do their own thing or craft items. There also seems to be little opportunity to buy and sell easily. It is something that I think my group has felt while playing several AP's over the last few years.
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Other than wrapping up at higher levels the only thing that I would like to see different in future AP's is time for downtime and the opportunity to actually shop. AP's seem to be rather fast paced with little time built in for the characters to do their own thing or craft items. There also seems to be little opportunity to buy and sell easily. It is something that I think my group has felt while playing several AP's over the last few years.
That rather depends on which AP, and even on which moment in the AP you're talking about. Kingmaker, Jade Regent, and Hell's Rebels spring to mind as APs with lots of built-in downtime, though e.g. A Song of Silver and Sound of a Thousand Screams ramp up the pace for a while. On the other hand, Second Darkness has the PCs in a hurry over at least the last three books.
Let's not forget Carrion Crown, which has a pretty fast pace to it.
Other than wrapping up at higher levels the only thing that I would like to see different in future AP's is time for downtime and the opportunity to actually shop. AP's seem to be rather fast paced with little time built in for the characters to do their own thing or craft items. There also seems to be little opportunity to buy and sell easily. It is something that I think my group has felt while playing several AP's over the last few years.That rather depends on which AP, and even on which moment in the AP you're talking about. Kingmaker, Jade Regent, and Hell's Rebels spring to mind as APs with lots of built-in downtime, though e.g. A Song of Silver and Sound of a Thousand Screams ramp up the pace for a while. On the other hand, Second Darkness has the PCs in a hurry over at least the last three books.
I'm currently on my third attempt to play through Rise of the Runelords. In each attempt we have found it very difficult to fit any downtime in and especially early on there is next to no time for buying and selling.
Same thing can be said for the others that I have played and completed: Legacy of Fire and Reign of Winter. When I ran Mummy's Mask there was plenty of time early on for downtime but not later in the campaign, but there was opportunity to buy and sell.
Having read but not run the Giantslayer AP it looks to suffer the same problems.
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Other than wrapping up at higher levels the only thing that I would like to see different in future AP's is time for downtime and the opportunity to actually shop. AP's seem to be rather fast paced with little time built in for the characters to do their own thing or craft items. There also seems to be little opportunity to buy and sell easily. It is something that I think my group has felt while playing several AP's over the last few years.That rather depends on which AP, and even on which moment in the AP you're talking about. Kingmaker, Jade Regent, and Hell's Rebels spring to mind as APs with lots of built-in downtime, though e.g. A Song of Silver and Sound of a Thousand Screams ramp up the pace for a while. On the other hand, Second Darkness has the PCs in a hurry over at least the last three books.I'm currently on my third attempt to play through Rise of the Runelords. In each attempt we have found it very difficult to fit any downtime in and especially early on there is next to no time for buying and selling.
Same thing can be said for the others that I have played and completed: Legacy of Fire and Reign of Winter. When I ran Mummy's Mask there was plenty of time early on for downtime but not later in the campaign, but there was opportunity to buy and sell.
Having read but not run the Giantslayer AP it looks to suffer the same problems.
The GM has the final say as to how much downtime is available in any book; setting the pacing for their group. The 2 campaigns I've run and one that I'm currently running (Carrion Crown, Rise of the Runelords, and Shattered Star [current]) didn't have specific time tables that indicated that "incident-x" happens 3 days after the conclusion of the previous situation.
[Edit] In regards to the original topic, I wouldn't mind if Paizo maybe mixed it up a bit (3 APs one year, 2 APs the next) or maybe expand a few of their modules to be 2- or 3-parters.