Playing a half-elf bard of Shelyn in a Hell's Rebels game and thinking of picking up a few levels in fighter with the polearm master archetype. But now I'm not sure. This is my character right here: Kethaera. I've also thought about picking martial weapon proficiency and pick glaive. I know that I would take spell song feat as well as persuasive feat too. But can anyone give me advice on what to do and what sort of build I should do?
I would appreciate any help you can give. Thank you.
How about cavalier then the bard/cav prc? Whatsits name...?
Are you finding yourself in melee combat frequently? You might want to ask your GM if you can change your archetype to an Arcane Duelist, as the Chelish Diva's abilities are not well-suited for melee.
Well we are already playing. I also have the savage skald and songhealer archetypes along with the chelish diva archetype. Not to mention the players guide suggests the chelish diva.
What other characters are in the party?
Fighter (tactician)
Urban ranger
Unchained rogue
Swashbuckler (Masked Avenger)
Polearms are good. When the enemy tries to shoot over a low wall, you are within melee range.
You could use pipes of the sewers and the bard could help control the swarm.
I don't think that party needs more melee. Your could do very well by focusing on buffing and control spells.
You're the only arcane caster? Yeah, Bard 20 is the route to go. If you absolutely must have a weapon handy then a longspear will serve you just as well as a glaive and not come with heavy opportunity costs.
No Full Arcane or Divine Spellcasters, that's the real problem.
Not going the full Bard 20 is going to really hurt your party's ability to perform in the late game. If you are going to Dip, I'd recommend 2 levels of Paladin, as Divine Grace adding Charisma to Saves is a really powerful ability (assuming your alignment is Lawful Good, of course).
I'm Neutral Good.
But I've been thinking of handling healing, buffing, and summoning monsters to give us backup.
Still a bit of melee capabilities would be useful.
Hmm...I see.
Well thank y'all for the help! I appreciate the assistance and advice.
An all-martial team will have lots of trouble at higher levels.
Indeed. So that's why I've decided to focus on healing, buffing, and summoning backup. Still having a glaive might not be so bad.
Btw what about dipping with one rank of war priest?
Playing a half-elf bard of Shelyn in a Hell's Rebels game and thinking of picking up a few levels in fighter with the polearm master archetype. But now I'm not sure. This is my character right here: Kethaera. I've also thought about picking martial weapon proficiency and pick glaive. I know that I would take spell song feat as well as persuasive feat too. But can anyone give me advice on what to do and what sort of build I should do?
I would appreciate any help you can give. Thank you.
I swear the boards have some sort of shared consciousness because I was literally thinking about building this earlier this week.
In my opinion, your party has such a severe lack of spellcasting power that whether or not you go Bard 20 won't have an impact on anything in the late game. 6 levels of spells aren't going to be enough to combat the stuff that full-casting classes can do. With that in mind, maybe ask your GM if they're willing to work with the group to come to a solution that allows everyone to play what they want without punishing their choices.
If you can get that worked out, I cannot suggest the Battle Herald prestige class enough (that's the one Thanael was mentioning above). Your party has tons of martial classes already, and with the right feats and items you can significantly boost their effectiveness in battle while covering for their weaknesses. With Inspire Courage, the inspiring command Sound the Charge, and Master Performer + Grand Master Performer, you can grant allies up to +10 to attack and damage rolls. In addition, you can take Inspiring Commands that boost saves, allow rerolls on failed saves, grant DR, and eventually gain the ability to maintain any number of inspiring commands at a time.
With that in mind, here's an idea for a support character I've been working on. Wield a longspear so you can eventually grab a Banner of the Ancient Kings. Make sure to get Combat Expertise and Swift Aid. Have everyone take two teamwork feats - the first can be anything (I suggest Escape Route since everyone's in melee), the second should be Harrying Partners. When you get into Battle Herald, take the Tactics inspiring command. When this is all done, you can use Aid Another as a swift action to grant an ally up to +5 on all attacks or AC for a round in addition to buffing everyone with Performances. I have mine taking the trait Community-Minded and Lingering Performance to greatly increase the number of rounds they can buff, and even for extremely prolonged dungeons they still have enough to get through without using even half.
With your ability scores as they are, participating in some form of direct violence is a rather risky proposition. A strength of 12 doesn't lend itself very well to using a typical large weapon on a Bard even with the support of Inspire Courage. However...
If you're thinking of taking a level of something else for some combat ability with those ability scores, I would highly recommend looking at one level of Urban Barbarian for the Controlled Rage ability and taking Dervish Dance or Fencing Grace. Unlike normal Rage, Controlled Rage does not prevent Bardic Performance, does not lower AC, and may be used to increase dexterity.
With Dervish Dance or Fencing Grace and a Furious weapon, beginning a Controlled Rage when you find yourself needing to fight will instantly improved your attack, damage, dodge, and weapon enhancement (Furious adds +2 to a weapon's enhancement while raging), and will not prevent you from continuing your performance. The spell Heroism is easy to maintain (10min/level) and adds another bonus to attack. Overall, it's "instant warrior" when needed - if you take Extra Rage once, it's at least 10/day, which should be enough for your purposes. Thematically, fighting with controlled anger increasing dexterity seems to fit right in with your character concept. This does involve a significant investment though, so it's not done lightly. Still...
"The graveyards are full of middling swordsmen. If one cannot be a good swordsman, better not to be a swordsman at all." -Octavian, Rome
Also, if I was looking at a Bard with very high charisma who might end up at the front, I would be very tempted by the spell Thundering Drums - particularly with Intensified Spell or Concussive Spell. High sonic damage combined with knocking things prone is pretty fancy stuff.
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Rage, Baridic Performance, and Heroism are all Moral Bonus', they dont stack.
If you're playing party healer the Evangelist might be a better fit; they have a lot of the Bards toys and better healing ability. You will also have a full caster in the party which will be helpful, but you will miss having spontanious Cure spells. I personally have fun with the Wind Subdomain.
Also, free Glaive proficiency.
For your existing build I would not recommend the Warpriest. There is not enough synergy with your existing class to make it worthwhile. Full BAB classes with proficentcy in all Martal Weapons will have more value to you.
Alternately, have you concidered the alternate racial trait Ancestral Arms for Glaive proficentcy?
Another problem is you've spread your Attributes too thin. A level 1 bard shouldn't need more than 14 CHA, especially since none of your bard spells require a high CHA score. Try an array of STR: 15 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 13 WIS: 8 CHA: 14 instead.
If you need any more info on these options let me know :)
Stand in back, cast your spells, chant your poetry, and you'll do way more good than a glaive ever would.
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Rage, Baridic Performance, and Heroism are all Moral Bonus', they dont stack.
Actually Bardic Performance is a competence bonus to attack rolls and weapon damage rolls - so that part would stack with Rage/Heroism. The fact that it isn't a morale bonus continually confuses both me and my players.
It is also a morale bonus to saves against charm and fear effects, which wouldn't stack with the morale bonus to Will saves from Rage or the morale bonus to all saves from Heroism.
Rage and Heroism don't stack together, though.
I agree with the rest of your post, though! :)
My mistake, that's weird.
Rage and Heroism don't stack together, though.
They raise different things, so stacking isnt relevant.
Rage raises STr and COn.
Heroism gives its bonus to his, saves and skills directly.
--> No overlap.
Rage and Heroism don't stack together, though.
Rage and heroism absolutely do stack. They're both morale bonuses, but to different stats. Rage gives you a morale bonus to your Strength (or Dex for the Urban Barbarian if you like), while heroism gives a morale bonus to your attack bonus.
Again, I am mistaken.
I guess the reason why I want to get a glaive is because it is the favored weapon of Shelyn and since her priests are either clerics or bards I wanted someone who was close to her goddess. However, a glaive or long spear might be useful in keeping enemies away from me so I could cast spells easily. That was the initial plan although bladed dash could be useful in finishing off enemies. Also my bard is primarily the negotiator and diplomat of the group. Also summon monsters is a good spell and one of my fellow players mentioned the feat that gives good aligned monsters you summon the diehard feat. Which is good.
At the protest I got a 33 Diplomacy skill check roll on the last event before the new Lord Mayor appeared! Yeah that got his attention!
So in other words stay away from dipping and just focus on leveling up bard? I also won't be going up to level 20 since the campaign only goes up to level 16.
Rage, Baridic Performance, and Heroism are all Moral Bonus', they dont stack.Actually Bardic Performance is a competence bonus to attack rolls and weapon damage rolls - so that part would stack with Rage/Heroism. The fact that it isn't a morale bonus continually confuses both me and my players.
It is also a morale bonus to saves against charm and fear effects, which wouldn't stack with the morale bonus to Will saves from Rage or the morale bonus to all saves from Heroism.
Rage and Heroism don't stack together, though.
I agree with the rest of your post, though! :)
Inspire is a competence bonus specifically so that it will stack with these things, basically.
Just to clarify what I said before, going the Controlled Rage route isn't going to be any kind of 'optimal' way to go with your character; that would be to focus on your core strengths. However character building should never be just about straight optimization, so if you're looking for combat potential it's probably the single easiest way to improve all the relevant stats since it buffs AC by 2 and, with the right weapon, attack and damage by 3. Add to that Heroism, Inspire Courage, a belt for some extra dexterity (and constitution...), and an enhanced buckler (which arguably works with Dervish Dance since it officially doesn't occupy your hand'), and you've got a reasonably effective and thematic way to "flip the switch" and go melee with an angry scimitar-dance fighting style.
While you could do a similar thing with a glaive, the fact that you would need to be using Controlled Rage and items to improve your strength and you couldn't use a shield would make going anywhere near melee with only light armor and 14DEX a very high-stakes gamble with some very unhappy odds.
If you go full bard, lean heavily into UMD.
As long as you take the enemy casters down before they can use up their wands, you won't suffer from too little fire power.
A full caster might come in at 5th level, when they are not so squishy.
Well Chelish Diva gives you the ability to wear medium armor at level 5 I think and still cast spells was a bonus. Not to mention since im the primary healer (one reason why we have a ranger as once he gets spells he'll help out with the healing) it might be a good idea and dip into cleric since clerics get to use their deity's favored weapon. This'll give me some more healing spells. A full bard is good but with the archetypes I have it might be difficult to go that route.
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Don't dip cleric either. You will be a a first level cleric which will not add any more healing than you could already do as a bard. You'll have a few more CL 1 cure light wounds per day and a bad 1d6 channel.
In-combat healing only works well if you build for it from level one. You haven't. You have enough healing to cover out-of-combat healing, and you are delaying access to Haste for your team and your condition-removal spells that you get at bard 7.
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I would second the Evangelist suggestion - you only lose 1 level of class abilities, gain proficiency with the favored weapon of Shelyn and quite a few nice goodies. If you want to be a really devoted bard, it is an okay good choice imo. Plus, Shelyn´s obedience is pretty simple, and a bonus to all craft and perform checks is golden for a bard who does not lose versatile performance.
Note - I mean the Evangelist PrC from Gods of the Inner Sea, not the cleric archetype (which is somewhat bard-like, but as a cleric).
If you are concidering dipping into Cleric concider retraining as an Evangelist Cleric, it sounds like it has everything you want. It only looses skill monkey ability, which can be somewhat compensated for.
Don't dip, bard 20.
Gimpin spell progressioN Will hurt more than u gain.
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Rage and Heroism don't stack together, though.Rage and heroism absolutely do stack. They're both morale bonuses, but to different stats. Rage gives you a morale bonus to your Strength (or Dex for the Urban Barbarian if you like), while heroism gives a morale bonus to your attack bonus.
You are correct, my bad - I was so hung up on feeling clever for pointing out Bardic Performance's bonus type that I missed my own error!
Pride going before a fall, I guess, but thanks for pointing it out so I don't misinform people :)
I would second the Evangelist suggestion - you only lose 1 level of class abilities, gain proficiency with the favored weapon of Shelyn and quite a few nice goodies. If you want to be a really devoted bard, it is an okay good choice imo. Plus, Shelyn´s obedience is pretty simple, and a bonus to all craft and perform checks is golden for a bard who does not lose versatile performance.
Note - I mean the Evangelist PrC from Gods of the Inner Sea, not the cleric archetype (which is somewhat bard-like, but as a cleric).
I see. Would also the Exalted PrC work as well? Just curious.
And I like that idea for using the Evangelist PrC. I've looked it over and I like the idea of dipping a bit into it.
And to remind everyone Hell's Rebels doesn't go up to level 20. It only goes up to level 16.
you're confusing the Evangelist Prestige Class with the Evangelist Cleric, the latter is the most suitible for you.
You seem very focused on multiclassing, sometimes it just doesn't fit a build.
Through using the Aligned class feature could round out a Clerics skill points to bard levels.
you're confusing the Evangelist Prestige Class with the Evangelist Cleric, the latter is the most suitible for you.
You seem very focused on multiclassing, sometimes it just doesn't fit a build.
Through using the Aligned class feature could round out a Clerics skill points to bard levels.
So what you're saying is that if I do dip go evangelist archetype cleric?
I'm saying INSTEAD of dipping Cleric to add healing to you Bard, retrain your bard levels to Evangelist Cleric, which gets the bardic performances: countersong, fascinate, inspire courage, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics; Perform as a class skill; and spontaious compulsion spells. On top of that you get a Domain, 9 levels of Divine spell casting, Channel Positive Energy, Glaive proficentcy, and the ability to cast in medium armor. (though you still need to buy proficentcey)
Add your Half-Elven Favored Class Bonus and you add your level on top of any Channel Energy heals. Add Selective Channeling and you can target specific creatures in combat for healing.
The Evangelist Cleric has everything you asked for
Either a bard (pure or with the evangelist PrC) or an evangelist cleric (through retraining) works okay here imo, just do not mix the two. You are a lvl 1 bard, so it is not the end of the world, but mixing is generally a bad idea for full casters.
A cleric might be a bit more handy in a group with no other casters and a ranger and rogue for skills, but I think a bard is still a workable option. No need to throw away a character design you like just because it is merely good and not the 100% best.
I see. Well I like the idea of using a prestige class though. But while the evangelist prestige class is good the boons I get as a worshipper of Shelyn aren't really that great hence the reason why I was looking into picking up cleric levels. This gives me access to the exalted prestige class which has some very nice boons.
In my personal opinion four is the max to multiclass. And we are already playing so I was looking into what might be good later on.
Also since she is half shoanti I picked up the shoanti tattoo trait to fit her design.
I don't think the gm will allow retraining. Haven't asked but I think it might be too late to retrain now.
Besides bards are meant to be healers, casters, diplomats, supporters, buffers, and backup fighters all rolled into one. She's done quite well in several fights already (I have use her longsword in two hands). So yeah it helps.
I appreciate everyone's advice. It has given me a great deal of ideas to think about.
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You can multiclass into as many classes you want effectively IF those classes have synergy.
For longsword proficentcy you could trade Adaptability for the Weapon Familiarity Racial Trait from Inner Sea Races, this gives you the same weapon proficentceys as a Elf.
An Evangelist Cleric can be a healer, caster, diplomat, supporter, buffer, and backup fighter just as easily or better than a Bard, the only place they fall short is being skill monkey.
According to your character sheet you are a level 1 Bard, even in PFS you can rebuild for free up to level 2, so ask your GM if he'll allow retraining, he should unless he's particularly draconian.
The largest difference in character concept if moving from Bard to Evangelist Cleric is that it's wisdom based.
If you're actually willing to rebuild the character, there are plenty of ways to create a more effective hybrid while staying a Bard.
Oh? What sort of hybrids?
And skill monkey is what I love about the bard, especially given what AP we are in. ;)
Besides getting a 33 diplomacy skill check at level 1 is pretty neat.
Btw I have a half elf sorcerer I'm thinking of multiclassing with dragon disciple and cleric and mystic theugre. That fits together. And we're playing emerald spire.
By hybrid in this case, I just mean having the ability to both fight and cast effectively. Redrawing ability scores so that charisma is only good instead of colossal and physical stats are decent instead of minimal would make trying to do both things a lot more effective. If your group plays things casual then it's not as much of an issue. But as levels progress, rolling attack and damage that's a fraction of where a typical melee character would be begins to be a little pointless, if not dangerous.
Stay Bard, focus on casting. Also, those stats? Half-assing all over the place.
If I was going to try to create a Bard that could cast and fight based on most of your choices and your character concept, I would go with something like:
Kethaera Nightbreeze, Bard of Shelyn
Half Elf; Ancestral Arms - instead of a Skill Focus, get a powerful Elven weapon for free.
Traits: Magical Lineage: Glitterdust - ostentatious blinding magic as a thematic specialty
13 STR - Allows power attack
16 DEX - AC, AB, initiative, and damage
12 CON - Reasonably safe (especially with some Favored Class HP)
10 INT - Bards get lots of skills anyways. If 10 isn't enough, another ability can be adjusted to make it 12
8 WIS - Mild and fairly harmless character flaw for some amusement (and points)
15/17 CHA - Where you had it. Decently effective, powerful if using a Persistent Spell
1. +Ancestral Arms: Elven Curved Blade / Weapon Finesse
3. Weapon Focus: Elven Curved Blade
5. Power Attack
7. Persistent Spell
Weapon: "Ghostsong" Agile Elven Curved Blade - "this elegant Elven weapon seems to perfectly match Kethaera's lithe frame. Both sword and mistress are deceptively lethal when together."
If you don't have access to Agile, then a 1d6 elemental damage bonus or just another point of enhancement. With Weapon Focus, Heroism, Inspire Courage, and some extra DEX from a belt, attack bonus should be effective even when using Power Attack, and Power Attack with an Elven Curved Blade is quite deadly.
Persistent Glitterdust is a level 3 spell thanks to Magical Lineage, and very tough to resist. Blinding packs of foes with bursts of seriously aggressive magic glitter is no joke, even if it's pretty funny. You can also turn Hideous Laughter and Ear Piercing Scream into Persistent level 3 spells.
While excellent ideas what I've noticed is that a lot of people keep saying to stay bard. But first off I'm of the school from the days of 3.5 D&D where it was okay to multiclass as long as you did it right. I don't care about numbers. I care about making a cool character. Yes staying alive is important. Now here's the thing: no one has mentioned spell song! That is an awesome feat!
And while all of these ideas are great you have to understand Hell's Rebels is about charisma, stealth, subtlety, and skill (so intelligence and charisma should be high). High charism lets me create a character that serves as the face of the group (I keep mentioning that my character scored a 33 at level 1 at the start of the campaign!).
So my question is if I don't plan on staying bard and I want to add cleric, what feats should I go with, and should go exalted or evangelist prestige class (or both!)?
Don't say stay bard. I want to know how would I make a bard/cleric character work. I appreciate all of these great ideas and advice though.