What would you do in this morally difficult situation?


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justaworm wrote:
I think all "fly up high, detonate, and create an EMP" and "detonate on the other side of the portal" ideas are likely off the table as there is a crystal that is part of the device that would have to be overloaded (at least as it seems from the OP).

Possible, but that wasn't the impression I got:

Ghray wrote:
The players however have found a quick and dirty way of destroying the portal: essentially nuking it. There is a crystal, when overloaded, will detonate like a small nuclear warhead. (and yes, they know how it works due to other Numerian characters explaining it).

It seems like its just a crystal that explodes like a nuclear bomb when overloaded. Not a part of the portal itself, just a powerfully detonating crystal.

ngc7293 wrote:
@Avoron, you have been "metagaming" most of the thread. You can't possibly know what an EMP does.

So, you have an entire world that lies on the brink of being invaded by a massive robot army, and there's not a single expert who has the brains to make a Knowledge (engineering) check?

Or more more accurately, scour the planet's libraries and stack on every bonus they possibly can to make a massively high Knowledge (engineering) check, which they immediately follow up on by spamming various divination spells.

In a world where robots are a thing and quasi-nuclear weapons are a thing, there's no reason to believe that none of the world's scientists or wizards would discover the principles behind an EMP when their entire civilization on the line.

In fact, if I had to predict whether Numeria or the 1950s US would discover the effects of EMPs first, I'd be betting on the world that can literally ask questions to the gods.


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To ask the question, they would have to at least suspect that such a thing as an EMP could be the side effect of a nuclear blast. Or there have to be somebody of high enough level (and a good rapport with the power that they are questioning) to ask really vague questions and potentially get useful answers.


That's what Knowledge (engineering) is for - you can use it to identify the weaknesses of robots, and once you've narrowed your area of research down to "things that could be used to defeat an army" and "things that aren't going to kill people in the area," it shouldn't be that hard to find something about how bursts of certain types of radiation could severely damage them. And from there its only a matter of time to discovering that this radiation could hypothetically be generated by a bomb - like the crystal they've been thinking about using.

Remember, there are lots of ways to magically boost knowledge checks if you have some free time and are willing to put enough resources into it, which these people would be. This is exactly the sort of situation that that sort of tactic is good for. Commune and other divinations would come after.


justaworm wrote:
I think all "fly up high, detonate, and create an EMP" and "detonate on the other side of the portal" ideas are likely off the table as there is a crystal that is part of the device that would have to be overloaded (at least as it seems from the OP).

Perhaps, may still be able to make a prismatic sphere around it though, "Energy field destroys all objects and effects." I think that would include "nuclear shockwave" as an effect trying to pass through.

Also regarding EMP: It wouldn't even work against the typical clockwork automaton construct. It only works against miniature delicate circuit boards and such. Your diesel truck with no computers in it will start up just fine after an EMP, and so probably would these robots.


Weirdo wrote:

"There's about to be a really big fight here between our army and those robots occupying your city. You sure you want to be in the middle of it?"

Sure, there will be people who will be stubborn and not evacuate, the same way there will be people who refuse to evacuate in the face of massive storms. But given that there is currently a 40,000 strong army of robots in their city, and another army massing outside the gates - there is already a reason to evacuate. This should not be a particularly difficult Diplomacy check.

So you're going to go into a city occupied by a hostile force, then openly declare you're working for their enemies? Sounds like a brilliant suicide plan if you're into getting executed for espionage.


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Is anyone else thinking: corbomite manoeuvre?

EMP is not a reliable strategy, the effects of EMP are not well understood in the real world despite all the nuclear testing conducted over the years.


The effectiveness of an EMP also relies on the inability of an object's designer to harden it against such a possibility. Something like an inter-dimensional portal would probably be hardened, if for no other reason that the massive energy requirements of creating such a portal. It would suck if you designed a thing that immediately destroyed itself.

Machines inside of other machines could also be shielded, without hardening. So robot troops inside a troop carrier might be unaffected, or take less damage, particularly if grounded from the carrier itself, which could act as a Faraday cage.

Unless of course these futuristic designers are capable of hardening all of their equipment, then it just doesn't work at all.

If I had a character in this, I'd look for somewhat to detonate the bomb on the other side of the portal. I'd risk a suicide mission to do it, cause that's what hero's do.


... machines. Honestly, more details are necessary, and really it's a matter of 'explain it in terms of magic' to the characters. What sort of scenario is it:

  • These are control-link machines; sever the link, and they become non-functional. (He created skeletons, that go and do what he says, and if you destroy him they collapse?)
  • These are programmed machines; even if you sever the link, they'll carry out their last order-set, so you'd have to push a linkup and corrupt (or delete) the order-set they possess. (He created elementals that'll do whatever they were ordered to until they're done doing it, so you have to get him to order them to stop?)
  • These are semi-, proto-, or fully-sentient entities, in which case you can awaken them to the fact that what they're doing is wrong. (He created a cult, so you have to convince the cultists they're wrong?)

Honestly, the 'gate-nuke' is a last-resort measure, to be set up to overload 10m (or 15m, or whatever, when a certain amount of power has been dumped into it) after the gate is open and the invasion is underway. You may well wind up wiping out the locations on both sides of the gate, but if the option is 'you got pwned into ultra-repressive slavery and genocide', then yeah, a couple hundred thousand (volunteers on the invaded-side, aware that their lives are most likely going to be sacrificed in order to preserve those of their family, country, etc.) is, honestly, something to be taken out of petty cash.


Why not nuke the portal from your side. You can handle any evacuations at your leisure.
Also, do you have a Paladin in your group? Because if so, there is no way he's taking the "nuke a city for the greater good option".

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Chengar Qordath wrote:
Weirdo wrote:

"There's about to be a really big fight here between our army and those robots occupying your city. You sure you want to be in the middle of it?"

Sure, there will be people who will be stubborn and not evacuate, the same way there will be people who refuse to evacuate in the face of massive storms. But given that there is currently a 40,000 strong army of robots in their city, and another army massing outside the gates - there is already a reason to evacuate. This should not be a particularly difficult Diplomacy check.

So you're going to go into a city occupied by a hostile force, then openly declare you're working for their enemies? Sounds like a brilliant suicide plan if you're into getting executed for espionage.

I misread the OP and thought it was their city that was being occupied, in which case it would be plenty safe to identify yourself as the home team privately to your citizens (not openly in the streets).

Given that this is apparently an away game, it should work just fine with a slight revision: "There's about to be a really big fight between that army and those robots occupying your city."

Heck, it could even be "our city" if anyone in the party has a half-decent Bluff score and a few ranks in Knowledge (local).


This may have been suggested already, but what about going through the portal first and detonating the crystal from the other side? It's probably a suicide mission, but the lives of thousands would be saved.


I find it hard to believe that the only way to sabotage the crystal is to make it explode / detonate.

I mean it's a crystal...spells like shatter should well shatter it, disintegrate should turn it to dust.

Teleportation could steal it.....and detonate it somewhere else.

this is not an either or situation!!!

Or you can real world it and straff the city with attacks and notes telling the population to leave.....


Kazmüd Khazmüd wrote:
Also, do you have a Paladin in your group? Because if so, there is no way he's taking the "nuke a city for the greater good option".

This is an awful view of paladinhood.

Minor Paladin Rant:

If we assume that nuking the city actually would be "for the greater good" after all options are taken into account, then it is the utilitarian choice.
Saying that there is no way a paladin would ever do this is akin to saying that following the path that brings the greatest happiness to the greatest number would be evil. Not just morally questionable - paladins can perform morally questionable acts. Not just neutral - paladins can perform neutral acts. But in order for a paladin to be prohibited from making this sacrifice, it would have to actually be evil. And it's not, not by a long shot. In fact, it's about as clearly "not evil" as you can get.

But wait! Maybe it just violates the paladin code. Then we could assume a paladin would never do it, even though it's not evil.
Sorry, no. This has nothing to do with either honesty or respect for authority, so that's out. By the strictest ruling possible, the paladin might be required to punish themselves house-elf style for harming innocents, but they can still do it.
In fact, the Code could easily be interpreted as requiring them to nuke the city, because they must "help those in need" - in this case, an entire world in need of help. But I don't think the Code actually restricts a paladin one way or another.

We even have deities saying things like this:

Sarenrae's Paladin Code wrote:
The best battle is a battle I win. If I die, I can no longer fight. I will fight fairly when the fight is fair, and I will strike quickly and without mercy when it is not.

It just seems extraordinarily presumptuous to assume that any paladin would automatically reject such an action. Paladins determine their own moral codes within the rough guidelines of the class, and there's no reason why they wouldn't sacrifice some for the greater good.

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