So running into a small calculation problem. Can anyone explain to me how to apply Clustered Shots to the DPR calculation?
Currently I am doing:
(Hit Chance * Damage) + (Hit Chance * Damage * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR
For DR I am doing (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR)) + (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR) * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR with DR
How do I account for the fact that once clustered shots become accessible you only apply DR once?
You do the calculation and then subtract the DR off of the total.
There are at least 2 DPR calculators on these boards. Are you doing these by hand?
...
As I posted above most people at level 6 will need a 3-5 to make the DC 15 and a 8-10 to make the DC20.
We are talking about a 12 dex fighter who has no ranks in fly, since calling a wizard who can prep flight once or twice being in the party as "possessing a reliable source of flight every day" for the fighter is dubious at best. The fighter's base modifier is +1. A fly potion tosses in +2(arguably +6). Oh, and fullplate has a -6 ACP. Armor Training cuts that down, but it's still -4 at level 10. That means that the fighter's total modifier when gulping a CL5 fly potion is a gob-smacking -1. The fighter can never go straight up, and has a 3 in 4 chance of losing altitude when they get hit. This is pretty bad.
How is he putting skill ranks into fly if he is using a potion?Headband of Int.
That's a way around it, but as far as Covent's claim goes it's not an appropriate solution at level 6, when that headband costs 1/4 of a character's wealth. I think it's fair to say that "most people at level 6" and "this requires one quarter of your total funds" don't really mesh particularly well.
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Again, fly checks are nearly irrelevant. The fighter in heavy armor and no ranks in fly can easily spiral upwards at an angle of 45 degrees without any sharp turns, and never need to make a fly check. Done!
Spiral upward with a fly speed of 20? Hope you brought a Snickers...
So running into a small calculation problem. Can anyone explain to me how to apply Clustered Shots to the DPR calculation?
Currently I am doing:
(Hit Chance * Damage) + (Hit Chance * Damage * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR
For DR I am doing (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR)) + (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR) * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR with DR
How do I account for the fact that once clustered shots become accessible you only apply DR once?
You do the calculation and then subtract the DR off of the total.
There are at least 2 DPR calculators on these boards. Are you doing these by hand?
Yeah doing me by hand. I was informed however that DR had to be calculated during DPR not just taken off afterwards. Is this incorrect.
I do have a DPR sheet I use for builds but I built it, would love a good robust calculator. Mine requires lots of by hand updating.
Also for those questioning, yes I at least count an arcane caster with fly available in the group as being able to put points in fly. I also did assume that when you got access you would simply begin raising fly until maxed which should take two levels.
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Again, fly checks are nearly irrelevant. The fighter in heavy armor and no ranks in fly can easily spiral upwards at an angle of 45 degrees without any sharp turns, and never need to make a fly check. Done!Spiral upward with a fly speed of 20? Hope you brought a Snickers...
Fly spell gives 60 fly speed, slowed to 40 in armor or medium load. So you can move up to 80 if you double move. That should get you near the enemies relatively quickly, if they don't start too far away.
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Fly spell gives 60 fly speed, slowed to 40 in armor or medium load. So you can move up to 80 if you double move. That should get you near the enemies relatively quickly, if they don't start too far away.Again, fly checks are nearly irrelevant. The fighter in heavy armor and no ranks in fly can easily spiral upwards at an angle of 45 degrees without any sharp turns, and never need to make a fly check. Done!Spiral upward with a fly speed of 20? Hope you brought a Snickers...
And the enemies, who presumably don't want to be near you because they can hurt you from range, are moving 60 and will practically auto-succeed their fly checks, so they can just kite you.
Fly spell gives 60 fly speed, slowed to 40 in armor or medium load. So you can move up to 80 if you double move. That should get you near the enemies relatively quickly, if they don't start too far away.Again, fly checks are nearly irrelevant. The fighter in heavy armor and no ranks in fly can easily spiral upwards at an angle of 45 degrees without any sharp turns, and never need to make a fly check. Done!Spiral upward with a fly speed of 20? Hope you brought a Snickers...
Fly speed is halved when ascending. So again, 20 foot fly speed trying to catch the guy above you.
Bows as a "backup" weapon do not cut the mustard. Doing cantrip damage is not acceptable...
Cantrip damage? How do you figure? Unless you mean at 1st or 2nd level, in which case "cantrip damage" is decent damage.
Yeah doing me by hand. I was informed however that DR had to be calculated during DPR not just taken off afterwards.So running into a small calculation problem. Can anyone explain to me how to apply Clustered Shots to the DPR calculation?
Currently I am doing:
(Hit Chance * Damage) + (Hit Chance * Damage * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR
For DR I am doing (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR)) + (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR) * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR with DR
How do I account for the fact that once clustered shots become accessible you only apply DR once?
You do the calculation and then subtract the DR off of the total.
There are at least 2 DPR calculators on these boards. Are you doing these by hand?
It's generally simpler with Clustered Shots, which is what wraithstrike is talking about - a full volley of arrows from a specialist archer is almost certain to do more than the DR in damage, so you can just subtract the DR once at the end.
Is this our world of entitlement now? Players expect to build a melee-specialist with a sense that they're entitled to have every encounter lay down and die before their awesome melee might?
Fie!
YOU build the character, YOU build a backup plan for when an encounter is not ideal for you, YOU prepare yourself, and YOU expect that there will be some encounters that will not be perfect for your specialization.
In return, the GM probably should have plenty of encounters that DO fall easy victim to your specialization so you can play what you built and enjoy your moments in the spotlight.
But in no way should a player feel like the GM is obligated to cater every encounter to your specialty. You're definitely not entitled to that.
And when it happens that you get an encounter that isn't well-suited to your specialty, then you use your backup plan and you EXPECT it won't match your specialized DPR because it obviously won't and it shouldn't - it's just a backup plan.
Archers have a myriad of methods to deal with enemies up in their face, including the ability to spontaneously become a melee character without losing any of their investment in archery. Wanting melee characters to get options to drag down a flier isn't entitlement, it's game balance.
Javelins and composite are cheap, low-investment options that leverage a fighter's Strength bonus for damage.
Remember, not everyone is starting at level 5 or 10. Sometimes you have to start at level 1.
I actually rolled crap for my barbarian's wealth in our campaign, a whopping 60 gold. Hide armour, greataxe, and SLING. Granted, she's only made about five ranged attacks during the whole run and we're at level 4 already. Still, I made sure that if someone was far away, she had something else to do than to take the full-round action 'sulk'.
The rest of our group? Rogue, bard, sorceror ... and cleric. So we meet our first flying enemy, and she takes out everyone except the sorc and the cleric with a Fear spell or something like that. And she let herself be seen too because at that point the sorceror was running out of gas and the cleric was having to decide on whether or not to attempt the -4 on attack rolls for a ranged mace.
Naturally, on the rematch, she was ... inconvenienced. Granted, not being scared out helped, especially when my barbarian flung a chakram into the enemy's midsection.
So at this point, my barbarian built for melee with a greataxe also has a captured longbow and three chakrams. If we know we have to rain ranged, bow time. Otherwise, rage, melee, and throw razor rings when required. Which means that when she's pissed off and the enemy is flying, her DPR drops ... but NOT ALL THE WAY TO ZERO.
Outside of large scale AOE a wizard's DPR is pretty poor, unless they happen to give up everything else to boost it. Spending actions to increase the value of allies (or decrease the value of enemies) isn't a waste, it's what the wizard is designed to do. Are you going to suggest the Wizard shouldn't be casting Haste?
Outside of large scale AOE a wizard's DPR is pretty poor, unless they happen to give up everything else to boost it. Spending actions to increase the value of allies (or decrease the value of enemies) isn't a waste, it's what the wizard is designed to do. Are you going to suggest the Wizard shouldn't be casting Haste?Casting haste on a melee class would be preferable able to flight, yes. Then at level 5 he could sling twice. Better than hoping he rolled well on flight to slowly get to where a flying creature is that can easily out maneuver him.
Haste would be a vast improvement.
Reloading a sling is a move action, you can't full attack with one without feat investment
Outside of large scale AOE a wizard's DPR is pretty poor, unless they happen to give up everything else to boost it. Spending actions to increase the value of allies (or decrease the value of enemies) isn't a waste, it's what the wizard is designed to do. Are you going to suggest the Wizard shouldn't be casting Haste?
To this I'll ask ... what should your fighter/barbarian/monk do when the wizard/sorceror/whoever is busy with other things, or just not feeling magical at the moment? Remember, the idea of 'grab a bow you idiot' is not Plan A. It might be Plan B, or even C if you've got good magical backup. (Which NOT everyone has! This is a 'what should your martial do' thread, not 'optimise your wizard better' thread, and rolling Intimidate checks against the caster to make them memorise better spells isn't the right way to handle things.)
Essentially, that sling or bow is what you do before you resort to sitting down and pouting. That 4.5 damage arrow, or 6.5 damage sling stone, or whatever if you've built up, beats the hell out of doing 0 damage by just yelling profanities at it. (And that assumes you spent ranks in Intimidate!)
If the Wizard is out of the fight or otherwise unable to cast spells then yes, of course you have a f@!#ing backup bow because Pathfinder is ridiculously sparse on options to help melee characters use what they have invested in, especially compared to ranged characters.
If the Wizard is "just not feeling magical at the moment" then the Fighter should feel no obligation to be doing their job either. They're just not feeling fighty at the moment.
I still think that pretending the backup bow is a legitimate option for melee when Point Blank Master exists for ranged is bad for the game.
If the Wizard is out of the fight or otherwise unable to cast spells then yes, of course you have a f++&ing backup bow because Pathfinder is ridiculously sparse on options to help melee characters use what they have invested in, especially compared to ranged characters.
If the Wizard is "just not feeling magical at the moment" then the Fighter should feel no obligation to be doing their job either. They're just not feeling fighty at the moment.
I still think that pretending the backup bow is a legitimate option for melee when Point Blank Master exists for ranged is bad for the game.
Well, when I said 'not feeling magical', I was trying to cover things from 'out of spells' to 'unable to cast' to 'been turned into debris field'; basically, for some reason, you aren't going to be getting Fly anytime soon from him or her. And while I can understand wanting some option for melee that's the same as letting archers pour arrows into a foe who's outright surrounded, you take what you can get.
Well, when I said 'not feeling magical', I was trying to cover things from 'out of spells' to 'unable to cast' to 'been turned into debris field'; basically, for some reason, you aren't going to be getting Fly anytime soon from him or her. And while I can understand wanting some option for melee that's the same as letting archers pour arrows into a foe who's outright surrounded, you take what you can get.If the Wizard is out of the fight or otherwise unable to cast spells then yes, of course you have a f++&ing backup bow because Pathfinder is ridiculously sparse on options to help melee characters use what they have invested in, especially compared to ranged characters.
If the Wizard is "just not feeling magical at the moment" then the Fighter should feel no obligation to be doing their job either. They're just not feeling fighty at the moment.
I still think that pretending the backup bow is a legitimate option for melee when Point Blank Master exists for ranged is bad for the game.
No, it's the same as letting an archer attack a foe who is in melee and isn't leaving without taking an AoO. Which is an ability they already have.
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Your first mistake was choosing to make a melee character. All martials are archers, they just don't realize it.
So running into a small calculation problem. Can anyone explain to me how to apply Clustered Shots to the DPR calculation?
Currently I am doing:
(Hit Chance * Damage) + (Hit Chance * Damage * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR
For DR I am doing (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR)) + (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR) * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR with DR
How do I account for the fact that once clustered shots become accessible you only apply DR once?
You do the calculation and then subtract the DR off of the total.
There are at least 2 DPR calculators on these boards. Are you doing these by hand?
Yeah doing me by hand. I was informed however that DR had to be calculated during DPR not just taken off afterwards. Is this incorrect.
I do have a DPR sheet I use for builds but I built it, would love a good robust calculator. Mine requires lots of by hand updating.
Also for those questioning, yes I at least count an arcane caster with fly available in the group as being able to put points in fly. I also did assume that when you got access you would simply begin raising fly until maxed which should take two levels.
It normally does have to be calculated during DPR because it normally affects each attack, but in this case since the subtraction is done at the end you can just do the DPR without the DR and then take off the DR amount.
It normally does have to be calculated during DPR because it normally affects each attack, but in this case since the subtraction is done at the end you can just do the DPR without the DR and then take off the DR amount.So running into a small calculation problem. Can anyone explain to me how to apply Clustered Shots to the DPR calculation?
Currently I am doing:
(Hit Chance * Damage) + (Hit Chance * Damage * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR
For DR I am doing (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR)) + (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR) * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR with DR
How do I account for the fact that once clustered shots become accessible you only apply DR once?
You do the calculation and then subtract the DR off of the total.
There are at least 2 DPR calculators on these boards. Are you doing these by hand?
Yeah doing me by hand. I was informed however that DR had to be calculated during DPR not just taken off afterwards. Is this incorrect.
I do have a DPR sheet I use for builds but I built it, would love a good robust calculator. Mine requires lots of by hand updating.
Also for those questioning, yes I at least count an arcane caster with fly available in the group as being able to put points in fly. I also did assume that when you got access you would simply begin raising fly until maxed which should take two levels.
Ah thank you. Sorry for the odd phrasing in my last post, typed on my phone. Apologies. Gonna try to get level 10 done todayish. Also have work and other projects, but I appreciate the help.
Ah thank you. Sorry for the odd phrasing in my last post, typed on my phone. Apologies. Gonna try to get level 10 done todayish. Also have work and other projects, but I appreciate the help.It normally does have to be calculated during DPR because it normally affects each attack, but in this case since the subtraction is done at the end you can just do the DPR without the DR and then take off the DR amount.So running into a small calculation problem. Can anyone explain to me how to apply Clustered Shots to the DPR calculation?
Currently I am doing:
(Hit Chance * Damage) + (Hit Chance * Damage * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR
For DR I am doing (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR)) + (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR) * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR with DR
How do I account for the fact that once clustered shots become accessible you only apply DR once?
You do the calculation and then subtract the DR off of the total.
There are at least 2 DPR calculators on these boards. Are you doing these by hand?
Yeah doing me by hand. I was informed however that DR had to be calculated during DPR not just taken off afterwards. Is this incorrect.
I do have a DPR sheet I use for builds but I built it, would love a good robust calculator. Mine requires lots of by hand updating.
Also for those questioning, yes I at least count an arcane caster with fly available in the group as being able to put points in fly. I also did assume that when you got access you would simply begin raising fly until maxed which should take two levels.
I forgot to add that even on the DPR calculators you can account for DR, even during the calcuation phase.
You just take 10 from the amount of each hit while entering the RAW damage total per hit.
If this is an issue let me know which calculator you are using.
Ah thank you. Sorry for the odd phrasing in my last post, typed on my phone. Apologies. Gonna try to get level 10 done todayish. Also have work and other projects, but I appreciate the help.It normally does have to be calculated during DPR because it normally affects each attack, but in this case since the subtraction is done at the end you can just do the DPR without the DR and then take off the DR amount.So running into a small calculation problem. Can anyone explain to me how to apply Clustered Shots to the DPR calculation?
Currently I am doing:
(Hit Chance * Damage) + (Hit Chance * Damage * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR
For DR I am doing (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR)) + (Hit Chance * (Damage-DR) * Crit mod * Crit chance) = DPR with DR
How do I account for the fact that once clustered shots become accessible you only apply DR once?
You do the calculation and then subtract the DR off of the total.
There are at least 2 DPR calculators on these boards. Are you doing these by hand?
Yeah doing me by hand. I was informed however that DR had to be calculated during DPR not just taken off afterwards. Is this incorrect.
I do have a DPR sheet I use for builds but I built it, would love a good robust calculator. Mine requires lots of by hand updating.
Also for those questioning, yes I at least count an arcane caster with fly available in the group as being able to put points in fly. I also did assume that when you got access you would simply begin raising fly until maxed which should take two levels.
I forgot to add that even on the DPR calculators you can account for DR, even during the calcuation phase.
You just take 10 from the amount of each hit while entering the RAW damage total per hit.
If this is an issue let me know which calculator you are using.
I don't have a DPR calculator just some clunky build sheets I use for class writing and build comparison. Could you point me at a good DPR calculator please?
Also thanks again for the help. :-)
I lost track of time. I didn't realize an hour had passed since I checked here again. I will get the links for you.
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With this one if you want to account for clustered shots just take 10 off the final DPR result.
For DR(no clustered shots feat) take 10 from the weapon damage you will enter for each iterative attack. The final result will be the numbers you post here.
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With this one if you want to account for clustered shots just take 10 off the final DPR result.
For DR(no clustered shots feat) take 10 from the weapon damage you will enter for each iterative attack. The final result will be the numbers you post here.
Thank you very much!
For DR(no clustered shots feat) take 10 from the weapon damage you will enter for each iterative attack. The final result will be the numbers you post here.
That doesn't really work for DR when DR is a real problem. If I'm doing 1d8 damage, my average damage is 4.5. If I'm attacking DR 5, what's my average damage per hit?
For DR(no clustered shots feat) take 10 from the weapon damage you will enter for each iterative attack. The final result will be the numbers you post here.That doesn't really work for DR when DR is a real problem. If I'm doing 1d8 damage, my average damage is 4.5. If I'm attacking DR 5, what's my average damage per hit?
That require the more elaborate DPR calculator which I did not link.
However the DPR is likely to be 1 point or less in this case.
I will find the link for the other DPR calculator and be back with instructions.
PS: It can be done with this one, but that defeats the purpose of having a calculator. :)
For DR(no clustered shots feat) take 10 from the weapon damage you will enter for each iterative attack. The final result will be the numbers you post here.That doesn't really work for DR when DR is a real problem. If I'm doing 1d8 damage, my average damage is 4.5. If I'm attacking DR 5, what's my average damage per hit?
0.75 hp.
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0.75 hp.For DR(no clustered shots feat) take 10 from the weapon damage you will enter for each iterative attack. The final result will be the numbers you post here.That doesn't really work for DR when DR is a real problem. If I'm doing 1d8 damage, my average damage is 4.5. If I'm attacking DR 5, what's my average damage per hit?
Not if you can crit.
With crits it becomes more of a hassle - especially if you actually roll the extra dice properly instead of just multiplying the die roll by the modifier.
The other more complicated calculator
For this one if you want to account for DPR there is a field called "Global +damage" It will apply to every individual attack made so if the DR you are calculating is 5 then put in a -5.
This should also handle the situation if can only do damage on a crit.
For clustered shots do not add in the -5 in the global damage area. Just subtract it after you get the final score.
One thing of note this level is that this is usually where you start seeing DR10/Magic/Damage type/Something regularly and DR5/- shows up alot.
Human Fighter 10
Str: 16 + 2 Racial + 1 Level +2 Enhancement
Dex: 13 + 1 Level
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Chr: 10
Feats
Human: Power Attack
1: Iron Will
Fighter 1: Furious Focus
Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
3: Point Blank Shot
Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
5: Precise Shot
Fighter 6: Rapid Shot
7: Improved Iron Will
Fighter 8: Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
9: Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Fighter 10:Clustered Shots
Gear: +2 Mithral Breastplate, +3 Greatsword, +3 5 strength composite longbow, + 3 cloak of resistance, +1 RoP, +1 AoNA, +2 Strength belt, sundries ~62k/62K
Weapon Training Heavy Blades +2, Ranged +1
To Hit with Greatsword: +22/+14
Damage with Greatsword: 2d6 + 23
Melee DPR VS AC 24: ((0.95*30)+(0.95*30*1*0.1)) + ((0.55*30)+(0.55*30*1*0.1))= (28.5 + 2.85) + (16.5 + 1.65) = 31.35 + 18.15 = 49.5
So Melee DPR with DR10 that cannot be penetrated would be 34.5. Against the average 130 hp enemies at this level that would mean 4 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
So Melee DPR with DR5 that cannot be penetrated would be 42. Against the average 130 hp enemies at this level that would mean 4 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
Without the DR or if it is DR Magic/Cold Iron/Silver/Slashing this goes to 3 rounds/characters of effort.
To Hit with Longbow No PBS: +15/+15/+10
Damage with Longbow No PBS: 1d8 + 9
Ranged DPR VS AC 24: Math Omitted due to Wamadine DPR calculator = 23.02
So Ranged DPR with DR10 that cannot be penetrated would be ~13.02. Against the average 130 hp enemies at this level that would mean 10 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
So Ranged DPR with DR5 that cannot be penetrated would be ~18.02. Against the average 130 hp enemies at this level that would mean 8 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
Without the DR or if it is DR Magic/Cold Iron/Silver/Slashing this goes to 6 rounds/characters of effort.
To Hit with Longbow with PBS: +16/+16/+11
Damage with Longbow with PBS: 1d8 + 10
Ranged DPR VS AC 24: 27.12
So Ranged DPR with DR10 that cannot be penetrated would be ~17.12. Against the average 130 hp enemies at this level that would mean 8 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
So Ranged DPR with DR5 that cannot be penetrated would be ~22.12. Against the average 130 hp enemies at this level that would mean 6 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
Without the DR or if it is DR Magic/Cold Iron/Silver/Slashing this goes to 5 rounds/characters of effort.
Damage loss no DR, no PBS is 49.5-23.02=26.48dpr ~54% loss
Damage loss no DR, with PBS is 49.5-27.12=22.38dpr ~46% loss
Damage loss with DR5, no PBS is 42-18.02=23.98dpr ~58% loss
Damage loss with DR5, with PBS is 42-22.12=19.88dpr ~48% loss
Damage loss with DR10, no PBS is 34.5-13.02=21.48dpr ~63% loss
Damage loss with DR10, with PBS is 34.5-17.12=17.38dpr ~51% loss
Damage loss for Melle through DR5 is 49.5-42=7.5dpr ~16% loss
Damage loss for Melle through DR10 is 49.5-34.5=15dpr ~31% loss
Damage loss for Ranged through DR5 no PBS is 23.02-18.02=5dpr ~22% loss
Damage loss for Ranged through DR10 no PBS is 23.02-13.02=10dpr ~44% loss
Damage loss for Ranged through DR5 with PBS is 27.12-22.12=5dpr ~19% loss
Damage loss for Ranged through DR10 with PBS is 27.12-17.12=10dpr ~37% loss
Human Fighter 10
Str: 14 + 2 Racial +2 Belt
Dex: 15 + 1 Level +1 Level
Con: 13
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Chr: 10
Gear: +3 Mithral Breastplate, +2 Kukri x 2, +2 4 strength composite longbow, +3 cloak of resistance, +1 RoP, +1 AoNA, Jingasa, +2 strength belt sundries 59k/62K
Feats
Human: Two Weapon Fighting
1: Power Attack
Fighter: Double Slice
Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (Kukri)
3: Iron Will
Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization (Kukri)
5: Point Blank Shot
Fighter 6:Precise Shot
7: Rapid Shot
Fighter 8: Improved Two weapon Fighting
9: Greater Weapon Focus (Kukri)
Fighter 10: Improved Critical (Kukri)
Weapon Training Light Blades +2, Ranged +1
To Hit with Kukri: +15/+15/+10/+10
Damage with Kukri: 1d4 + 16 / 1d4 + 13
Melee DPR VS AC 24: = 41.99
So Melee DPR with DR10 that cannot be penetrated would be 17.29. Against the average 130 hp enemies at this level that would mean 8 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
So Melee DPR with DR5 that cannot be penetrated would be 29.64. Against the average 130 hp enemies at this level that would mean 5 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
Without the DR this goes to 4 rounds/characters of effort.
To Hit with Longbow no PBS: +14
Damage with Longbow no PBS: 1d8 + 7
Ranged DPR VS AC 24: = 17.71
So Ranged DPR with DR10 that cannot be penetrated would be 2.73. Against the average 130 hp enemies at this level that would mean 48 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
So Ranged DPR with DR5 that cannot be penetrated would be 10.01. Against the average 130 hp enemies at this level that would mean 13 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
Without the DR this goes to 8 rounds/characters of effort.
To Hit with Longbow with PBS: +15
Damage with Longbow with PBS: 1d8 + 8
Ranged DPR VS AC 24: = 21.31
So Ranged DPR with DR10 that cannot be penetrated would be 4.57. Against the average 130 hp enemies at this level that would mean 48 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
So Ranged DPR with DR5 that cannot be penetrated would be 12.79. Against the average 130 hp enemies at this level that would mean 13 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
Without the DR this goes to 8 rounds/characters of effort.
Damage loss no DR, no PBS is 41.99-17.71=24.28dpr ~58% loss
Damage loss no DR, with PBS is 41.99-21.31=20.68dpr ~50% loss
Damage loss with DR5, no PBS is 29.64-10.01=19.63dpr ~66% loss
Damage loss with DR5, with PBS is 29.64-12.79=16.85dpr ~57% loss
Damage loss with DR10, no PBS is 17.29-2.73=14.56dpr ~84% loss
Damage loss with DR10, with PBS is 17.29-4.57=12.72dpr ~74% loss
Damage loss for Melle through DR5 is 41.99-29.64=12.35dpr ~30% loss
Damage loss for Melle through DR10 is 41.99-17.29=24.7dpr ~59% loss
Damage loss for Ranged through DR5 no PBS is 17.71-10.01=7.7dpr ~44% loss
Damage loss for Ranged through DR10 no PBS is 17.71-2.73=14.98dpr ~85% loss
Damage loss for Ranged through DR5 with PBS is 17.71-12.79=4.92dpr ~28% loss
Damage loss for Ranged through DR10 with PBS is 17.71-4.57=13.14dpr ~74% loss
Human Fighter 10
Str: 14
Dex: 16 + 2 Racial + 1 Level + 1 Level +2 Belt
Con: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Chr: 10
Feats
Human: Point Blank Shot
1: Precise shot
Fighter 1: Rapid Shot
Fighter 2: Deadly Aim
3: Power Attack ---> Retrain to Iron Will
Fighter 4: Weapon Focus (Longbow)
5: Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
Fighter 6: Clustered Shots
7: Many Shot
Fighter 8: Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow)
9: Point Blank Master
Fighter 10: Imp Critical (Longbow)
Weapon Training Ranged +2 Anything else +1
Gear: +3 Mithral Breastplate, +3 2 strength Composite longbow, +3 Cloak of resistance, +1 AoNA, +1 RoP, Jingasa, +2 Dex Belt Sundries ~53K/62K
To Hit with Longbow No PBS: +18
Damage with Longbow No PBS: 1d8 + 15
Ranged DPR VS AC 24: = 61.43
So Ranged DPR with DR10 that cannot be penetrated would be 51.43. Against the average 130 hp enemies at this level that would mean 3 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
So Ranged DPR with DR5 that cannot be penetrated would be 56.43. Against the average 130 hp enemies at this level that would mean 3 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
Without the DR this goes to 3 rounds/characters of effort.
To Hit with Longbow with PBS : +19
Damage with Longbow with PBS : 1d8 + 16
Ranged DPR VS AC 24: = 69.29
So Ranged DPR with DR10 that cannot be penetrated would be 59.29. Against the average 130 hp enemies at this level that would mean 3 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
So Ranged DPR with DR5 that cannot be penetrated would be 64.29. Against the average 130 hp enemies at this level that would mean 3 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
Without the DR this goes to 2 rounds/characters of effort.
Damage loss with DR5, no PBS is 61.43-56.43=5dpr ~8% loss
Damage loss with DR5, with PBS is 69.29-64.29=5dpr ~7% loss
Damage loss with DR10, no PBS is 61.43-51.43=10dpr ~16% loss
Damage loss with DR10, with PBS is 69.29-59.29=10dpr ~14% loss
Human Evoker Wizard 10
Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 16 + 2 Racial
Wis: 10
Chr: 10
Gear: Liquid Ice as a Focus
Ray of Frost DPR VS AC 18 for touch!: (0.25*8) +(0.25* 8*1*0.05)= 2 + 0.1= 2.1
Need 62 rounds to down an at CR opponent. Any elemental resistance completely shuts down ray of frost unless the caster has a way of shifting elements.
Conclusions at level 10:
1.) In terms of DPR Ranged>2-Hand>Dual wield.
2.) Dual Wielders lose most of their DPR when switching to a ranged weapon.
3.) Clustered Shots is a must, without clustered shots against DR you cannot penetrate you are doing Cantrip levels of damage again.
4.) If you have the dexterity Manyshot>>>>Deadly aim.
5.) With Clustered Shots punching DPR becomes much less important.
6.) It is always worth the action economy for non-ranged to chug a fly potion and put on an oil to punch DR rather than using a bow.
7.) Ranged basically should not Melee as they lose to much DPR, it will almost always be better to 5ft and shoot if possible.
8.)Two Handers make decent switch hitters due to lower amount of feats needed. Even as fighters, dual wielders are feat starved as both archery and TWF need lots of feats.
I am spent If anyone wants to do other levels feel free.
Final Conclusions:
Past the earliest levels, a melee based character should only pick up a ranged weapon if the following is true;
a.) All others methods of getting into Melee are not available.
b.) The Melee cannot be helpful doing anything else. Heal checks to stabilize, Aid another, retrieving items, etc...
c.) The ranged weapon they are picking up will penetrate DR involved, and is enchanted equally with their main weapon.
Otherwise unless the Ranged and caster characters can finish the fight without him the whole group should retreat, as the time to kill of an at CR enemy becomes so long that it is likely there will be deaths or a TPK.
0.75 hp.For DR(no clustered shots feat) take 10 from the weapon damage you will enter for each iterative attack. The final result will be the numbers you post here.That doesn't really work for DR when DR is a real problem. If I'm doing 1d8 damage, my average damage is 4.5. If I'm attacking DR 5, what's my average damage per hit?
You are forgetting about STR. Since this whole thread is about a melee specialist using a bow as a backup he is going to have a decent STR. By the time flying creatures become a threat the player will be able to afford a bow with a STR bonus. Most melee focused characters have 18+ STR. That brings your average damage up to 8.5, or 3.5 after DR 5. Bow also have a x3 critical multiplier, so on a critical hit that brings the damage up to 25.5.
Compared to his normal damage this is not really all that much, but the point is it is better than nothing. The whole idea behind a backup is to use it when all else has failed. If you have to fall back to your backup you are already in a bad way. The idea is to prevent it from becoming worse. The best example is a company’s backup of their computer data. If they have to use the backup their hard drive has completely failed including the R.A.I.D., at this point the backup is their last shot at preventing total disaster.
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0.75 hp.For DR(no clustered shots feat) take 10 from the weapon damage you will enter for each iterative attack. The final result will be the numbers you post here.That doesn't really work for DR when DR is a real problem. If I'm doing 1d8 damage, my average damage is 4.5. If I'm attacking DR 5, what's my average damage per hit?You are forgetting about STR. Since this whole thread is about a melee specialist using a bow as a backup he is going to have a decent STR. By the time flying creatures become a threat the player will be able to afford a bow with a STR bonus. Most melee focused characters have 18+ STR. That brings your average damage up to 8.5, or 3.5 after DR 5. Bow also have a x3 critical multiplier, so on a critical hit that brings the damage up to 25.5.
Compared to his normal damage this is not really all that much, but the point is it is better than nothing. The whole idea behind a backup is to use it when all else has failed. If you have to fall back to your backup you are already in a bad way. The idea is to prevent it from becoming worse. The best example is a company’s backup of their computer data. If they have to use the backup their hard drive has completely failed including the R.A.I.D., at this point the backup is their last shot at preventing total disaster.
The post above you takes the STR into account. It's still basically not worth pulling out a bow at higher levels. The melee fighter is not contributing enough to make any real difference, and if the rest of the party can't handle it, they should probably retreat or risk TPK.
In early levels yes definitely have a cheap ranged weapon around. By mid levels, 'Keep some potions of fly around' is a much better piece of advice.
0.75 hp.For DR(no clustered shots feat) take 10 from the weapon damage you will enter for each iterative attack. The final result will be the numbers you post here.That doesn't really work for DR when DR is a real problem. If I'm doing 1d8 damage, my average damage is 4.5. If I'm attacking DR 5, what's my average damage per hit?You are forgetting about STR. Since this whole thread is about a melee specialist using a bow as a backup he is going to have a decent STR. By the time flying creatures become a threat the player will be able to afford a bow with a STR bonus. Most melee focused characters have 18+ STR. That brings your average damage up to 8.5, or 3.5 after DR 5. Bow also have a x3 critical multiplier, so on a critical hit that brings the damage up to 25.5.
Compared to his normal damage this is not really all that much, but the point is it is better than nothing. The whole idea behind a backup is to use it when all else has failed. If you have to fall back to your backup you are already in a bad way. The idea is to prevent it from becoming worse. The best example is a company’s backup of their computer data. If they have to use the backup their hard drive has completely failed including the R.A.I.D., at this point the backup is their last shot at preventing total disaster.
The post above you takes the STR into account. It's still basically not worth pulling out a bow at higher levels. The melee fighter is not contributing enough to make any real difference, and if the rest of the party can't handle it, they should probably retreat or risk TPK.
In early levels yes definitely have a cheap ranged weapon around. By mid levels, 'Keep some potions of fly around' is a much better piece of advice.
Yep, and it happens by level 5, so I would say by 4-5 having a fly potion > having a bow.
Final Conclusions:
Past the earliest levels, a melee based character should only pick up a ranged weapon if the following is true;
a.) All others methods of getting into Melee are not available.
b.) The Melee cannot be helpful doing anything else. Heal checks to stabilize, Aid another, retrieving items, etc...
c.) The ranged weapon they are picking up will penetrate DR involved, and is enchanted equally with their main weapon.
d.) The melee character has access to lots of buffs. A basic fighter with a nonmagic bow becomes quite effective if allies supply Haste, Heroism, Inspire Courage and Magic Weapon.
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And the enemies, who presumably don't want to be near you because they can hurt you from range, are moving 60 and will practically auto-succeed their fly checks, so they can just kite you.Fly spell gives 60 fly speed, slowed to 40 in armor or medium load. So you can move up to 80 if you double move. That should get you near the enemies relatively quickly, if they don't start too far away.Again, fly checks are nearly irrelevant. The fighter in heavy armor and no ranks in fly can easily spiral upwards at an angle of 45 degrees without any sharp turns, and never need to make a fly check. Done!Spiral upward with a fly speed of 20? Hope you brought a Snickers...
So by flying up there, my melee guy caused the enemy to move away and take only one attack, instead of full attacking? Mission accomplished! The melee guy just helped the party fight the flyer. That's a pretty effective debuff right there. Now, let's hope the wizard and archer can do enough damage to kill him while the melee fighter continues debuffing this way.
Why does everyone keep talking about this as if it's a solo fight? We're talking about ways for a melee guy to help in fights where the rest of his party need to step up and be the stars. He doesn't have to shine here, he just has to avoid being a useless lump. Pick up a sling or composite bow at low level, and potions of Fly by around level 5 or 6. Simple. Why is this a debate?
Archers have a myriad of methods to deal with enemies up in their face, including the ability to spontaneously become a melee character without losing any of their investment in archery. Wanting melee characters to get options to drag down a flier isn't entitlement, it's game balance.Is this our world of entitlement now? Players expect to build a melee-specialist with a sense that they're entitled to have every encounter lay down and die before their awesome melee might?
Fie!
YOU build the character, YOU build a backup plan for when an encounter is not ideal for you, YOU prepare yourself, and YOU expect that there will be some encounters that will not be perfect for your specialization.
In return, the GM probably should have plenty of encounters that DO fall easy victim to your specialization so you can play what you built and enjoy your moments in the spotlight.
But in no way should a player feel like the GM is obligated to cater every encounter to your specialty. You're definitely not entitled to that.
And when it happens that you get an encounter that isn't well-suited to your specialty, then you use your backup plan and you EXPECT it won't match your specialized DPR because it obviously won't and it shouldn't - it's just a backup plan.
The last time I had a player try to use his bow while threatened (he had the Point Blank Master feat), he found out that bowstrings are hardness 0 with 1 HP and anybody can sunder a bowstring with any slashing weapon even with minimum damage. A schoolgirl with a dagger can sunder a bowstring. And re-stringing a bow takes a long time. Several rounds. That poor guy was using HIS backup weapon in a half dozen fights before he learned that it was in his best interest to keep himself out of threatened squares - heck, the first time it happened he didn't even have a spare bowstring and they were in the middle of a dungeon, so he was using a backup non-magical morningstar for half the dungeon. After that, of course, he carried spare strings, but each time one was sundered he was back to the morningstar for the rest of that fight.
Enemies with any shred of intelligence or wisdom can figure out that sundering some guy's greatsword might be difficult, enough that few ever try, but sundering some guy's bowstring is, well, a snap...
The last time I had a player try to use his bow while threatened (he had the Point Blank Master feat), he found out that bowstrings are hardness 0 with 1 HP and anybody can sunder a bowstring with any slashing weapon even with minimum damage.
This is a house rule, yes? There aren't specific rules for spare bowstrings and so forth?
Enemies with any shred of intelligence or wisdom can figure out that sundering some guy's greatsword might be difficult, enough that few ever try, but sundering some guy's bowstring is, well, a snap...
Am I saying that a GM should do this all the time?
No, of course not. But occasionally putting an archery-specialist into close-combat where he's unable to effectively use his ranged weapon and is forced to use a backup is just as fair as occasionally putting a melee specialist into ranged combat where he has to use his backup ranged weapon, or occasionally putting a fire-specialized blaster up against fire-immune monsters so they have to use their backup spells, or occasionally putting a sneak-attack-focused rogue up against plants and oozes so he has to use a backup strategy, or occasionally putting characters with weapons up against swarms so they have to use a backup plan.
And since that was unclear, they're all perfectly fair. I don't buy into player entitlement; no player is entitled to have EVERY encounter perfectly tailored to roll over and die to whatever one-trick-pony tactic he has specialized in.
I also don't do it all the time. Players should get the chance to have their hero be heroic and act like a hero.
They should also expect that there will be times they need to look for plan B to survive and prosper.
The last time I had a player try to use his bow while threatened (he had the Point Blank Master feat), he found out that bowstrings are hardness 0 with 1 HP and anybody can sunder a bowstring with any slashing weapon even with minimum damage.This is a house rule, yes? There aren't specific rules for spare bowstrings and so forth?
The string on a bow is a string (a thin rope). I have core rulebook stats for hardness and HP of rope (Hardness 0, HP 1 per half inch of thickness). It is an attended object. I have core rulebook rules for sundering attended objects.
No, that wasn't a house rule.
I did have to figure out a time frame for stringing a bow. I used to teach archery to boy scouts so I have some experience with that, and those bows were super weak (20 and 30 pounds of draw). I ruled that with a string in hand, it's a full-round action that provokes. We have core rulebook rules for getting things out of backpacks (etc.) so that's how long it took to restring it.
So the only house rule was the action to string a bow.
And, frankly, that house rule was made to HELP the player. Otherwise I would have used the core rulebook rule that his bow would get the Broken condition until repaired. Technically, the string is broken, but since the string is not a separate object, that means the bow is broken. Very tedious, and not very practical. So the house rule made it easier for him to get back into the fight, or at least the next fight.