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Hey everybody! (Hi Doctor Shimnimnim!)
So I am DMing this adventure Path. Let me tell you, this campaign is just causing me so much trouble right now, and there are a hundred reasons why to be completely honest. But this thread isn't about a hundred reasons, it's about just a couple. Since I write like an idiot every time I get on a forum board, I'll explain in a series of bullet points.
- I really like the Nessian Spiral bit. To me, it is the perfect culmination of the themes I saw in CoT. Ideally, I'd like the end the campaign with it, really.
- A lot of people out there have talked about doing the books in the order of 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 5/6 -> 4. this fits in perfectly with what I want to do.
- Really, what I want to do is take the Council of Thieves taking control and slow it way down, so that in a way that stuff happens less in books 5 and 6 and more like, throughout books 2 and 3 as well as in books 5 and 6.
- I can't figure out how people do it! People always suggest it but I can't figure out how to make it happen. The encounter modding is no issue at all, but what gets me is, specifically:
- How do you have the mayor go missing and the like without first having the catalyst of the manor exploding? How do you even lead to the manor exploding when the council is done for? How do you make the party care?
Discuss.
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Former CoT GM here! (My campaign went too far off the rails for me to still call it Council of Thieves.)
Where is your campaign at, currently?
Off the top of my head:
-Just have the mayor go missing. Once the Hellknights catch on, they'll try to hush it up, but won't take his place or allow a replacement - neither of those are within their authority.
(The next one may depend on your PCs' specific capabilities.)
-After the confrontation at the Arodennama, have one or both of the Drovenges flee to the Spiral. You could even use some sort of simulacrum... so after a fight with Eccardian, they think they've won, only for Vaneo Arvanxi to go BOOM.
-As for making the party care... hopefully they'll care about the city enough to save it, especially with the threat of Liebdaga the Twin's imminent release.
I have some other recommendations that worked well in my own game, but I'll save those for a later post. Feel free to PM me, or keep posting here. ^_^
Having played through, I think a problem can be having the PCs/players care about a city that will still be benefiting Thrune even if only because trade and stuff improves due to the shadowcurse/council being done away with. 'Why should we care about helping the land of halfling kickers?"
So, perhaps shift Westcrown over to the border between Cheliax and Andorian and have things tense because Anforian would like to have a toehold in Cheliax. If the players can clean out the gangs, end the curse and roust the old corrupt Council, then Andorian will move in to occupy and halflings heads will no longer fear the boot.
Hey! Going to address some stuff real quick:
"Where is your campaign at?"
We literally just finished book one. I did very little differently than the book, but already I sort of regret how incompetent the hellknights came off as well as how evil tieflingy it all was. Everything from the sixfold trial and onwards is stuff I can afford to mess with.
"Just have the mayor go missing"
I guess my real concern is that I want to sort of see things dissolve into chaos here, but it's a bit tough. Actually, since the mayor doesn't do all that much anyway, maybe my real concern is there. The more I read through book 6 the less I like it. My group has a Halfling ex-slave, a paladin of Iomedae, and a tiefling mercenary, and a big part of me feels like the idea of "rallying the nobles, the same ones who rule over a country with slavery, so that they can restore the status quo just without shadow beasts" will not be cool with them. This is... it's a bigger issue than I realized. I admit I really like the idea of Andoran stepping in. We'll see how the group feels about everything when that time comes.
I'm not entirely sure if I really like the mayor just going missing without some sort of obvious reason behind it. I'm definitely thinking I need to make the Council's presence more known in general... I think I maybe don't like this campaign. This is really bad for my group. I may need to put a bit more thought into all this, I'll get back to y'all soon.
Having played through, I think a problem can be having the PCs/players care about a city that will still be benefiting Thrune even if only because trade and stuff improves due to the shadowcurse/council being done away with. 'Why should we care about helping the land of halfling kickers?"
Given the possibilities at the end of the path with the option of Westcrown having self-governance, I feel like there's definitely the option for the PCs to make the city a better place to live. The info about Westcrown and Cheliax so far says that Thrune pretty much views the city as a backwater and doesn't pay much attention to it. SO as long as the PCs don't run around publicly chanting "Down with Thrune!" they have a decent amount of leeway for their actions.
I'm currently running CoT and here's what I've been doing:
-Keeping the party's involvement with the Children of Westcrown going throughout the path. (For example, on a side mission after Book 1, they helped Fiosa rescue some halfling slaves.) In my campaign, Arael encourages them to do good deeds and help people so that the city can make gradual changes toward being a better place. (This also helps them feel more connected to the city, I think).
-One of my characters (it's a 2-player campaign, so we're each running 2 characters and I'm GMing) is secretly from House Grulios, which has a good-aligned patriarch. Her plan is to put her uncle in the mayor's position eventually. The other player has a character from House Tilernos, which has a paladin of Iomedae as its patriarch. (Which must be an INTERESTING position in Cheliax, but the fact that he still retains a decent amount of importance in the city means that there has to be some wiggle room for good characters to work with). You're unlikely to have this situation, but I'd add in some interactions with the more good-aligned families as well. A decent part of the nobility in Westcrown is rather debauched and uncaring, but they don't all have to be. If the PCs do everything right, at the end of the path they'll have the opportunity to really direct where the city goes in the future, and their opinions on who becomes mayor will likely hold a lot of weight.
-For things like slavery, etc., which maybe they can't ban outright...they can still furtively make as inconvenient as possible (who's gonna notice a little more bureaucratic red tape in Cheliax?). Chaotically-inclined parties can work in the shadows helping slaves escape. Lawfully-inclined parties can advocate better treatment, at least, even if they can't stop the institution entirely.
-The trick for PCs who really want to change things in Westcrown, I think, is to be subtle.
-I'm actually adding a section after the adventure path ends where Westcrown tries to secede entirely from Cheliax and become its own independent entity. (Andoran is actually a great idea for helping out in that matter, so thanks for that!) If your party really hates the idea of leaving Westcrown in Thrune hands, you could add something like that to your campaign. (Though it would probably have interesting implications if you planned on running Hell's Rebels or Vengeance later. I haven't read either yet, so I'm not sure as to what those would be.)
I've just finished Book 4, and am readying to run Book 5 (after some very heavy revision... but that's another story).
I can understand the desire to switch the book order: The finale of book 3 is basically building up to a climactic fight with Sivanshin to reclaim the night and end the shadow curse... and then you instead go crawling through an infernal dungeon (and with an artifact of Boom no less). It's... odd and not entirely satisfying.
That said: I'd suggest doing 1->2->3->5->4->6. The Infernal Duke is dramatic, but not the point of the adventure. Furthermore, the Book 6 is designed specifically to be the climax of the campaign, whereas Book 4 is pretty much just a dungeon crawl.
I'll second Meraki's first point, but go a bit further: The setup in the first book is for the PCs to not just associate with the Children of Westcrown, but be Children of Westcrown... and basically the Avengers. I have them hanging out at the shrine normally, and regularly going out on side missions with the NPC members (In fact, that accounts for about half the play time).
I can understand why a lot of people don't go that route, and certainly, the premise of "You are masked crusaders with a support team of NPCs" gets... well.. 'forgotten' in the later books, but I found sticking with it really, really helped maintain investment in the city and a consistent narrative tone.
As for House Thrune... I'll second Meraki again here: Subtlety is key. Thrune has little interest in Westcrown, and largely considers it the last vestige of the old order that hasn't had the decency to shrivel and die off yet. It's function as a trade hub is the main reason they haven't actively tried to speed up its slow decline. So as long as the heroes don't start beating a war drum, Thrune interest isn't likely to be that great.
We did have interactions with the CoW that did kinda die off in later books. Ermolos became the sidekick of our dwarf inquisitor but got killed by an undead dragon turtle in book 3, Fiosa became the lover and wife of Andrea here while the others drifted off, leaving just Areal and Janivan as representatives.
If you do put book 4 at the end, they'll care about the place exploding if *they* are the ones living there, after having become Mayor of Westcrown...
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I actually had the PCs join Arael and Janiven as co-leaders of the organization: Arael handled logistics and intelligence, Janiven handled HR (recruitment, outfitting, allocating tasks to the various NPC members) while the PCs usually lead missions and acted as the face of the organization... sort of.
See, the concept in Book 1 was that the Children of Westcrown, including the PCs conceal their identity - that was the point of the social scene where the PCs help them pick their uniforms and their organization name. This means that the Fame points gathered over the course of the adventure are held by the organization, not the individual PCs - so in the event of a TPK, the new party can pick up where the old left off without losing the accumulated Fame (which is a clever design choice).
Sadly, the subsequent books increasingly diverged from the paradigm of "The PCs have secret hero identities who carry the Fame", to assuming the PCs are known and public heroes and the Children of Westcrown merely an organization they go to for info/missions. So it took a fair bit of work in some cases to have the Fame transfer appropriately and maintain the secret identities of the PCs.
If you can get the PCs to buy into the Children of Westcrown, and use the various NPCs as faces of the oppressed masses, it's generally a lot easier to get them to become invested in the fate of the city and... well... give a damn. Though if your PCs insist on being callous mercenary jerks... well... you may have to give up on compassion and go for vengeance: Have some Council heavies (use stats from Book 6) come in, beat them up, rob them of everything they own and leave them for dead, only to be rescued from bleeding out by Arael and company. It might not make them give a damn about the city, but it should at least motivate them to take the fight to the Council.
Trying to introduce Eccardian and give him (and his family, really) more screen time (preferably in situations where the PCs can't try to gank them) also helps, as otherwise you run into the Edivian (or however you spell it) dilemma of the heroes going "So who is this guy?" when they finally confront him. Nevermind poor Vasindio, who is integral to the plot but never gets a second of screen time in his entire life.
I wound up creating a lot of additional content over time, that saw the PCs buddy up with different members of the organization on a regular basis.
NB: When I say "recruiting the PCs", it is short hand for "approaching the heroes with concerns regarding events in the city, and requesting that the Children of Westcrown take action, typically involving the heroes leading a mission, with one or more of the NPCs joining in to support".
Amaya: In disguise joined the supporting cast for the Sixfold Trial, and helped keep the heroes alive between Acts. She then got further work at the Limehouse Theater as both actor and playwright, creating a lunchtime stage serial revolving around a cast of masked heroes fighting crime and righting wrongs... Who conveniently bear the same names as the stage names the PCs used when they performed the Sixfold Trial.
Given the clear association of the play with the Children of Westcrown organization (though the actors she used were kept in the dark), she wound up calling on the heroes to help her find some of her missing cast members, after Shanwen Shanwen (best typo ever) abducted them in order to force the masked heroes who upstaged him to show themselves and GIVE HIM HIS VENGEANCE!
I may have used Shanwen a few times...
Ermolos: After a couple of missions rose to become a reasonably proficient Fighter, and also helped keep the Children of Westcrown equipped and their gear in good repair.
I then ran a scenario in Book 3 where the foreman at the smithy he worked at began acting strangely - working folks long hours for a "Urgent Order", while avoiding answering questions: This lead to Ermolos recruiting the heroes to go with him to investigate the smithy at night, discover evidence that the foreman's family had been abducted and were being held to ransom for arms and armor, and were able to intervene at the next 'exchange', rescuing the hostage at the time and getting intel on where the rest were being held.
This then lead to the daring rescue mission where the heroes (including Ermolos) infiltrate the Kidnapper's compound, rescue the family and beat down the mercenary kidnappers - turning them over to the Dottari.
(The Merc's were hired for the task by the Usurper faction of the Council of Thieves to arm up their forces for the coming events, but while there were hints of this present at the site, there wasn't any obvious proof).
Fiosa: Fiosa acting as something of a morale compass as well as a head of a rather extensive network of halfling informants scattered throughout the city.
She wound up recruiting the heroes to investigate accounts of halflings going missing in Rego Crua and Scripa. This lead to the discovery and assault on an illegal slaving operation next to the Oberigan Wall, liberation of a large number of kidnapped people - including a number of halflings, and even some tieflings from Cader - and subsequent mission to one of the island wharfs to bust the smuggling operation taking place their.
Gorvio: In addition to winding up in a relationship with one of the PCs, Gorvio was a frequent addition to their missions, and I wound up playing him as having something of a romantic flair for heroism and adventure. He liked being a "Big Goddamn Hero".
His mission revolved around his drunken uncle having sold off their entire stock and subsequently retired on the generous payout he received... suspiciously generous, and without leaving a name or contact details.
I tied this in with the modifications to the Infernal Syndrome where the Usurpers had found a back door into the Nessian Spiral through Sian's actions in the Knot, and were extracting large amounts of infernal (duke) blood to transform dogs into hellhounds and horses into nightmares, as well as humans into tieflings. An old 'abandoned' estate outside of the city was being used as the ranch, and Gorvio and the heroes swiftly put and end to the operation and liberated the animals within from the Council.
Larko: I didn't use, to be honest.
Mathalen: Likewise, pruned for my sanity.
Rizzardo: Rizzardo was ever present, and popular due to his somewhat carefree attitude and willingness to get his hands dirty (such as when the heroes went back into the sewers in Book 1 after goblins). I ran a small mission for him involving people-smuggling.
Sclarvo: I made him actually a paladin of Sarenrae, to distinguish him more from the two clerics of Iomadae already in the organization. He tended to function as legal council to the party, but also an excellent source of knowledge, as he had access to many of the government archives.
I tied the mission to defeat Whitechin to information he obtained from reports (that had been dismissed and thus not acted upon by the Dotarri) similarly, he frequently joined the heroes when they went up against bandits and kidnappers, as he excelled at helping ensure the required evidence to convict was gathered and presented (well, left with the bound criminals) to suit the dotarri's needs.
Tarvi: Tarvi I had wind up in a tempestuous relationship with Rizzardo (which causes no end of entertainment) and helps the party with arcane research, liquidating obtained treasures and development of magic items (such as a lesser form of a hat of disguise which is extremely cheap and works as a superhero transformation device to put the heroes 'in costume' or out of it as a swift action).
Her mission revolved around someone buying up most of the onyx in town via agents and third parties, and her having tracked it down to a noble in Rego Laina - leading to an infiltration mission to sneak in carefully and search his manor (while he was sleeping), discover he is just another agent, and then follow the next 'collection' of onyx back to the ultimate destination: A derelict shrine in Rego Cader which has been desecrated and turned into a shrine to Urgothoa.
They cleansed it with fire.
Vitti: Pruned for my sanity.
Yakopulio: Pruned for sanity, and due to a lack of compatibility with the heroes.
Yep. My party also joined the Children of Westcrown, and are pretty invested with a fair number of the NPCs introduced in the first book. We just started Infernal Syndrome (for my sanity, I didn't go to the work of switching the book orders). They're definitely considered partial leaders of the Children, though they still rely on Arael for logistics and diplomacy in the more respectable areas of the city (and Janiven in the less respectable ones).
I, too, ended up adding a lot of bonus content so they had a connection to the Children beyond the first book. So far, the ones they've interacted with the most are:
Arael: Still leading things (at the moment he's looking after the city while the PCs go down into the Nessian Spiral). Also involved in a romantic relationship with one of the PCs, which is...interesting, since she's a CG rogue with a ton of secrets (the character from House Grulios I mentioned earlier). Their relationship is somewhat...tempestuous.
Janiven: Still acting as second in command. Our android occultist PC recently hooked her and Rizzardo up. She's the one who runs the jobs that might be slightly legally questionable.
Fiosa: One of the ones they've interacted with the most; they really took a liking to her. So far the PCs have gone on a couple slave-freeing missions with her.
Rizzardo: I actually ended up making him a rogue instead of a barbarian because I read him as a rogue initially for some reason and thought it worked better. He's the "lovable rascal" type in my game.
Tarvi: She and the occultist android are magic item crafting buddies.
Yakopulio: Her tavern serves as an unofficial home base for the people they don't want to let in on the location of the safe house. I ended up making her an alchemist, so she also brews them potions sometimes in addition to Arael's divine ones.
Amaya: She's pretty good friends with two of the PCs.
The others are around, but the PCs haven't interacted with them as often yet. I've also had them doing things in the background while the PCs are doing plot stuff...mention tracking down smugglers and the like.
So far, having one character being a tiefling has had interesting implications for the game. So far, she's rescued two of the Bastards of Erebus tieflings (they surrendered after most of their buddies went down) and talked them into joining the Children. They were reluctant and mistrustful at first, but now they're all for it.
I feel like she's probably going to try to redeem Ecarrdian as well. I almost chuckled when the other player told me her backstory, because she's a tiefling of a noble house who was hidden away by her family and not publicly acknowledged, much like Ecarrdian. So I'm preparing for that to happen. (This party keeps trying to redeem almost everyone, so that leads to some interesting role-play situations.)
Fiosa certainly seems to be one of the more popular npcs. Chavama's CoT game had her be the morality pet for the more CN/N members of the PC group.
Arael: Still leading things (at the moment he's looking after the city while the PCs go down into the Nessian Spiral). Also involved in a romantic relationship with one of the PCs, which is...interesting, since she's a CG rogue with a ton of secrets (the character from House Grulios I mentioned earlier). Their relationship is somewhat...tempestuous.
Awesome :D
Given the single-city setting and consistent cast of support characters, the AP does rather beg for romantic drama, doesn't it?
I feel like she's probably going to try to redeem Ecarrdian as well. I almost chuckled when the other player told me her backstory, because she's a tiefling of a noble house who was hidden away by her family and not publicly acknowledged, much like Ecarrdian. So I'm preparing for that to happen. (This party keeps trying to redeem almost everyone, so that leads to some interesting role-play situations.)
Oh... that is going to be good.
Awesome stuff all told - and I find it's always good to share ideas, as it's often a good source of inspiration.
The half-elf Monk/Rogue in our game wrote the backstory as being the bastard child of one of the noble families (specifically, one of the Taldan ethnicity ones, given the intended character appearance)... so I casually suggested Drovenge (and gave Sidonai a younger brother, who went missing on the same ship as Dear Departed Dad).
Having the character step into the ring in the Devildrome and subsequently get some screen time with Chammady after (yep, his cousin) also gave me an excuse to give poor Vassindio some camera time... as he invited/ordered the character to attend dinner with him, while surrounded by well-dressed goons and informed him in no uncertain terms that if the PC had any idea about trying to 'use' his poor, gullible cousin to try and worm his way into House Drovenge's coffers, he is deeply mistaken. It was a blast.
Which is another point: If you can squeeze in some screen time with Vassindio to give the PCs some perspective on the entire internal conflict within the Council, it is totally worth it, in my opinion.
As the city is a little light on detail for something so large, I wound up creating a number of locations. In the hope that this helps or at least gives some ideas... here are some of them:
- Aspiring Actors: If after Book 2 any of the PCs take an interest in performing on the stage, the haunted books from Delvehaven make good inspiration for plays - I used the Hatchling Nursemaiden, myself.
- Other Taverns/Inns: The Alabaster Cask (upper-middle class tavern in the Sacero), The Bull & Trader (lower-middle class tavern in Scripa), Riverboat Inn (lower to middle class inn that moves between Scripa and Crua docks), Wandering Reefclaw (working class tavern on the canal between Scripa and Crua), Runaway Flagon (dirt poor drinking hole beside the Oberigan wall), Rapture (northern pier, converted to casino, bordello and general den of vice)
- Other Theaters: Scarlet Playhouse (Playhouse in Crua, focused on providing cheap entertainment for the district residents), Silver Covenant (upper-middle class theater in Sacero)
- The Devil's Arms: A discount arms & armor store in the south of Crua, named half-jokingly by its tiefling owner. Has a reputation for low prices and getting... pretty much what you paid for.
- Bank of Abadar: Northern end of Sacero, temple and bank to Abadar (whose worship is perfectly okay in Cheliax, and one of the religions most comfortable with Asmodeus).
- Empire Plaza: Plaza in Rego Scripa that serves as a venue for public addresses and hosts a public market each Sunday (typically 10am to 2pm).
- Vendajen University: University in Rego Aurum owned and operated by House Grulios. Known for it's well-rounded curriculum, and generous scholarships to gifted students who otherwise lack the means to attend, however it is suffering in attendance as the Grulios family have steadfastly refused to cater to the growing focus on devil-summoning and binding that came with House Thrune's rise to power.
Just some suggestions from my game. Hope they help!
Awesome :D
Given the single-city setting and consistent cast of support characters, the AP does rather beg for romantic drama, doesn't it?
It really does. Romance usually pops up at some point in the games I've been involved in, but this one is particularly good for it.
The half-elf Monk/Rogue in our game wrote the backstory as being the bastard child of one of the noble families (specifically, one of the Taldan ethnicity ones, given the intended character appearance)... so I casually suggested Drovenge (and gave Sidonai a younger brother, who went missing on the same ship as Dear Departed Dad).
Oh, that sounds like fun. The other player in my game was also looking for a noble family to be part of, so I casually suggested Tilernos, given that Sascar Tilernos shows up and then you have to rescue her later. (Her parents just informed her that her cousin--well, second cousin--has gone missing. They've only recently started actually talking to her; they mostly ignored her before. So now she's really invested in finding Sascar.)
Yeah, bringing Vassindio in earlier is probably a good idea. Might be too late for me...the city's in chaos for most of this book and then he dies, but I'll have to see if I can finagle something. This is a tricky one to foreshadow, I think, because you don't want the PCs to go after the Drovenges immediately, but if you're not careful, it can seem like Ecarrdian comes out of nowhere.
Those are great locations! Might have to make use of some of those myself.