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Benefit: Choose one weapon from the monk fighter weapon group. While using this style and wielding the chosen weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike, as if attacks with the weapon were unarmed attacks.
This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.
Once per round, the wearer may add an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on one attack and damage roll for an unarmed strike or natural attack (for one specific attack, not all attacks made with an unarmed strike that round).
If I wear a body wraps of mighty strikes with the speed property, an amulet of mighty fists with the holy and flaming properties and a +5 keen cestus, does my cestus strike become a +5 keen holy flaming speed strike (total +12 worth of bonuses)?
since the largest enhancement bonus would apply, I think yes
Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10.
Weapon Bonuses: Can weapon special abilities (such as bane) or class abilities (such as a paladin's divine bond) allow you to exceed the +5 enhancement bonus limit and the +10 bonus-equivalent limitation?
For the enhancement bonus limitation, it depends on the specific effect or ability that's altering the weapon.
Bane: This allows the weapon to exceed the +5 limit, but only against the designated creature type. For example, a +5 dragon-bane longsword is normally a +5 weapon, but has a +7 enhancement bonus against dragons and deals +2d6 points of damage against dragons.
Paladin: The divine bond ability says "These [enhancement] bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5." That means if a paladin has a +5 longsword, she can't use her divine bond to increate the enhancement bonus to +6 or higher (but she could use her bonuses to add abilities such as flaming to the weapon).
The +10 bonus-equivalent limitation is a hard cap for all weapons; you can't exceed that even with class abilities or other unusual abilities.
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Ok then, but the main question is whether this style allows my player's character to combine the effects of the 2 items. Can he for example combine a holy amulet of mighty fists with a +5 cestus for a +5 holy cestus strike.
And if the total bonuses exceed +10, does he choose which bonuses to apply? So in the original example, can he make one attack with +5 holy speed and then an iterative strike with +5 holy flaming keen?
No. An AoMF is one "weapon" while a Cestus is another weapon.
You can't benefit from both at the same time.
It's like wearing a +1 Flaming Gauntlet and a +5 Cestus. You don't end up with a +5 Flaming attack.
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This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.
Once per round, the wearer may add an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on one attack and damage roll for an unarmed strike or natural attack (for one specific attack, not all attacks made with an unarmed strike that round).
The text of the items seem to disagree with you, Rynjin.
This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.Once per round, the wearer may add an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on one attack and damage roll for an unarmed strike or natural attack (for one specific attack, not all attacks made with an unarmed strike that round).The text of the items seem to disagree with you, Rynjin.
I don't see how, considering I never mentioned the Body Wraps, which are a specific exception.
You caid Cestii and AoMFs. They do not stack. At all.
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This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.Once per round, the wearer may add an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on one attack and damage roll for an unarmed strike or natural attack (for one specific attack, not all attacks made with an unarmed strike that round).The text of the items seem to disagree with you, Rynjin.I don't see how, considering I never mentioned the Body Wraps, which are a specific exception.
You caid Cestii and AoMFs. They do not stack. At all.
Congratulations on rolling a natural 20 to hit the hair. It is now split.
My opening posts made it clear that I wanted to discuss whether the 3 items stack. So you are proposing that with this style feat, the cestus can be used with the body wraps but not the amulet? Can you demonstrate from the rules why they operate differently?
From what I can see, the amulet applies an effect ("grants an enhancement bonus") to your unarmed strike rather than functioning as a weapon itself. Based on the wording of the feat, it seems that the amulet would stack with the cestus because you are using the cestus as normal, and then applying the effect of the amulet which would usually only work on an unarmed strike (which appears to be the effect of the style feat). And I think the bodywraps apply the same way.
In case you missed it, the important rules to discuss are the and the amulet of mighty fists/bodywraps of might strikes.
Rynjin, are you looking at the ability "Ascetic Style"? It says that anything that boosts an unarmed strike boosts the chosen weapon.
@Gisher, We know that a weapon can't have more than a +10 on it, But we do know that a weapon can temporarily be "higher" than a +10 if you have Bane or similar quality on it. It breaks the +5 cap, and also the +10 cap because it can be a +7 with +5 in enhancements.
This is why I still think they both apply. It's like having the mage armor spell up and a Harimaki with armor enhancements. You get the better AC from the spell, and the enhancements(not numerical enhancements, but special ability enhancements.) from the Harimaki.
Thus the +5 enhancement from the weapon goes through along with any other enhancements, and the special bonuses from the AoMF also are applied. Because the weapon is never higher than a +10, but it's getting additional special effects on the attack.
My opening posts made it clear that I wanted to discuss whether the 3 items stack. So you are proposing that with this style feat, the cestus can be used with the body wraps but not the amulet? Can you demonstrate from the rules why they operate differently?
Easy enough.
Magic weapons HAVE an Enhancement bonus. The Amulet GRANTS an Enhancement bonus. The two don't stack. You can't grant something to something that already has it.
The Bodywraps ADD an Enhancement bonus TO something else.
It's like the Magus' Arcane Pool. If they have a +1 weapon, they can ADD +1(/2/3/4/5) TO their existing weapon.
Likewise the Haramaki thing works because the armor functions as it functions, and then Mage Armor grants an armor bonus that supersedes the existing armor bonus. Kinda like adding Magic Vestment to the Haramaki instead.
The AoMF/Cestus combo isn't the same deal. You're basically trying to wield two weapons at once. It's the same reason the Haramaki trick doesn't work if you instead wear a Chain Shirt on top.
I say 3.
You have +2 AoMF. It grants a +2 Enhancement to your Unarmed Strike.
You have a +3 Cestus. It grants a +3 Enhancement to your Cestus.
You have Ascetic Style. Your AomF grants a +2 Enhancement to your Cestus. Your Cestus grants a 3 Enhancement to your Cestus.
Enhancement bonuses don't stack, they overlap.
Why would special abilities be an exception here? You have two different weapons enhancing the same thing.
You can pick one, and it'll work then. You can pick the other, and it's work the other way.
You can't have both, just like you can't magically decide your +2 dagger and +3 Longsword add up to a +5 Longsword when you have an ability that applies Dagger effects to Longswords.
I don't think they are saying the enhancement bonuses would stack. It's the other properties. E.g. Holy, flaming, ect. Up to a +10 equivalent bonus. A +4 enhancement bonus and a +3 enhancement bonus would leave you with a +4 enhancement bonus. However, a +4 enhancement bonus and a + 1 flaming holy cestus, would give you a +4 flaming holy cestus.
I would rule you could stack effects up to a +10 equivalent hard cap. Like bonuses would not stack (you could not have 2 flamings ect) AND if you went over the +10 hard cap you could choose which properties not to apply from amongst those added by the feat. The properties added by the weapon were there first and I would not let them not be applied.
@Gisher, We know that a weapon can't have more than a +10 on it, But we do know that a weapon can temporarily be "higher" than a +10 if you have Bane or similar quality on it. It breaks the +5 cap, and also the +10 cap because it can be a +7 with +5 in enhancements.
Read the FAQ that I quoted. It says that Bane can temporarily overcome the +5 enhancement bonus limit, but states that you can't overcome the +10 limit.
The +10 bonus-equivalent limitation is a hard cap for all weapons; you can't exceed that even with class abilities or other unusual abilities.
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@Gisher, We know that a weapon can't have more than a +10 on it, But we do know that a weapon can temporarily be "higher" than a +10 if you have Bane or similar quality on it. It breaks the +5 cap, and also the +10 cap because it can be a +7 with +5 in enhancements.Read the FAQ that I quoted. It says that Bane can temporarily overcome the +5 enhancement bonus limit, but states that you can't overcome the +10 limit.
The +10 bonus-equivalent limitation is a hard cap for all weapons; you can't exceed that even with class abilities or other unusual abilities.
Thanks Gisher. That solves one half of the question, and I definitely learned something from this.
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I say 3.
You have +2 AoMF. It grants a +2 Enhancement to your Unarmed Strike.
You have a +3 Cestus. It grants a +3 Enhancement to your Cestus.
You have Ascetic Style. Your AomF grants a +2 Enhancement to your Cestus. Your Cestus grants a 3 Enhancement to your Cestus.
Enhancement bonuses don't stack, they overlap.
Why would special abilities be an exception here? You have two different weapons enhancing the same thing.
You can pick one, and it'll work then. You can pick the other, and it's work the other way.
You can't have both, just like you can't magically decide your +2 dagger and +3 Longsword add up to a +5 Longsword when you have an ability that applies Dagger effects to Longswords.
No one is arguing that the enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage should stack. I was asking from the beginning whether the special abilities stack.
And it is not that special abilities are an 'exception'. It is that the special abilities simply are not identical/overlapping effects. If you make a weapon a flaming weapon, and then give it a flaming property again, it is still a flaming weapon because the second application of the flaming property overlaps with the pre-existing one. But if you give a flaming weapon the shock property, it becomes a flaming shock weapon.
The amulet of mighty fists and the body wraps of might strikes are not weapons themselves. They enhance specific weapons that cannot usually be enchanted. What the ascetic style feat appears to do is allow that enhancement to be applied to a small list of manufactured weapons that can usually be enchanted.
The hypothetical character is using a style feat that allows you to apply effects to your weapon that would not normally be applicable. You are not trying to use two weapons in one strike. You are using one weapon - the cestus.
The question is whether the bonuses amulet of mighty fists and bodywraps of mighty strikes count as "effects that augment an unarmed strike" for the purpose of the ascetic style feat. From what I see, even you acknowledge that they do count. The only exception is that you insist that they do not stack with the weapon's pre-existing properties. By that reasoning, it seems that you would thnk that if an 8th level wizard cast greater magic weapon on a +1 flaming sword, it would become either a +1 flaming sword OR a +2 sword. Most of the rest of us appear to think that it would become a +2 flaming sword.
It's not like Greater Magic Weapon though. AoMFs function in pretty much all ways as a weapon.
You're trying to use two weapons at once and pretend they're one super-weapon, or at least that's how I see it.
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It's not like Greater Magic Weapon though. AoMFs function in pretty much all ways as a weapon.
They are actually very different. You do not strike with it. It enhances other things that you strike with, to wit, unarmed strikes and natural weapons.
You say that the amulet is a weapon, then let me ask you - what is its base damage and threat range? Or better yet, is it one weapon or many?
You're trying to use two weapons at once and pretend they're one super-weapon, or at least that's how I see it.
I am trying to demonstrate that this appears to be what the ascetic style feat does. The majority on this thread appear to think that is the correct interpretation. If you disagree, feel free to FAQ it.
"Pretty much all"
They enhance an existing weapon, as an Enhancement applied to that weapon.
You still can't apply two enhancements to the same weapon in the manner you're implying.
I honestly have no clue WHY the majority in this thread thinks it works.
Again, back to the example of wearing two sets of armor. Or, hell, even better.
Bracers of Armor, plus a piece of actual armor.
They do not stack in any way, shape, or form.
This is the same deal. A Wondrous item that acts as an enhanced weapon (or piece of armor) trying to stack with an existing weapon (or armor).
It doesn't work that way. You can swap between them, sure, but you can't stack them. Special Abilities or no.
You don't take a Bane Speed Flaming AoMF and a +5 Cestus and come out with a +5 Bane Speed Flaming Cestus any more than you take A Greater Energy Resistance Glamered set of Bracers of armor and a +5 Chain Shirt and end up with a +5 Greater Energy Resistance Glamered Chain Shirt.
They override one another.
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Bracers of armor is a specific exception because it is specifically stated in the item description that it does not stack with other sources of armor bonuses to AC. Find such a specific exception that applies to any of the items discussed, or in the style feat, and you'll have made your case. Until then, I don't think there are any rules that support your view.
The text of the items clearly say that they grant bonuses to certain pre-existing weapons, specifically unarmed strikes and all natural attacks. The words of the ascetic style feat are that "effects that augment an unarmed strike" apply to the weapon. Where the bonuses do not overlap with pre-existing bonuses on the weapon, unless there is a generally applicable rule or a specific rule for these items or feats to the contrary, the default position should be that they stack.
Bracers of armor is a specific exception because it is specifically stated in the item description that it does not stack with other sources of armor bonuses to AC. Find such a specific exception that applies to any of the items discussed, or in the style feat, and you'll have made your case. Until then, I don't think there are any rules that support your view.
No, bro, as you've said multiple times already it's not about the enhancements, it's about the special abilities. That specific exception actually doesn't even come into play here.
And I don't agree with the fact that you're essentially saying "The RAW doesn't specifically disallow me" in that second bit. That's not how the game works.
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Well, you mentioned bracers of armor in your earlier post so I addressed it. As you said, it doesn't come into play here.
In this case, it's about whether non-identical effects stack. We are proposing that they do. A +2 enhancement does not stack with a +4 enhancement because they are both enhancement bonuses. But a flaming property does not overlap with a frost property. They are not the same thing, and so they both apply.
How you get both properties on the same item ultimately does not matter and does not affect whether the effects stack or overlap.
Example:
A fighter has a belt of giant strength +2. A cleric casts bull strength on him, and then a wizard casts siphon might on an enemy for 10 points of strength, which he applies to the fighter as an enhancement bonuses. The fighter now has the following effects on him:
+2 enhancement bonus to strength (belt)
+4 enhancement bonus to strength (bull strength)
+10 enhancement bonus to strength (siphon might spell)
Those effects overlap, but they don't stack because they are overlapping effects. The enhancements from the belt and the bull strength spell do not disappear. They are still there, but they are superseded by the bonus siphon might spell. So what happens if the siphon might spell is dispelled? Do the other 2 bonuses disappear? No, because they are still there.
What happens if he gets an enhancement bonus to dexterity? It applies because it does not overlap with an identical but greater effect. It does not matter whether it comes from a spell, an ioun stone or he somehow gets the ability to wear and benefit from a second belt. It's a bonus that does not overlap with any other bonus he currently has, so it applies.
The same logic applies in this case. How the bonuses get on a weapon is ultimately irrelevant. It does not matter whether it comes from a wizard casting a spell, or another magic item (like this one), or a feat like ascetic style. As long as the new effect does not overlap with any pre-existing effect, it applies. This is most of the others on this thread agree that the effects in the examples earlier in the thread stack. Because they do not overlap with any pre-existing property on the weapon.
Rynjin,
If you had a Haramaki +1 with Determination and the mage armor spell what is the AC boost and do you have Determination?
Also, the amulet IS NOT A WEAPON!
"This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.
Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities"
It's granting enhancement and/or special abilities to things. With Ascetic style that list is expanded to include the Gauntlet. Thus is can grant it's special abilities onto the gauntlet in addition to the enhancement bonus the gauntlet already has. Thus if the gauntlet was a +5, and you had a holy AoMF then the gauntlet "is treated as" a +5 holy gauntlet.
It think Rynjin's problem is that you are picking and choosing which abilities/enhancements to add per ability, instead of which item wholly is better (and would be the "winner" between two items working).
If it were magical stacking effects each effect is determined separately so it would be less an issue. But magic items are different, they are sorted by slots and can be packages of effects per slot.
Let us say you are using a plain +2 leather Armor with +4 worth of enhancement abilities. Then you put on Bracers of Armor +5.
The bracers obviously win in terms of AC, but the total bonus of the leather Armor is overall better. Which item is active? When attacked if the bracers are active, do you still maintain the effects of the leather armor?
Simplify it more, you are wearing magical leather Armor with abilities, then don plate armor over it, that also has abilities. Do you get both sets of abilities despite only one of the armors being "working"?
I know it has come up on the boards in the last a few times (multiple armors and effects), but it isn't a subject I follow actively so I don't know if it has had any Dev clarification or FAQ. But my gut says only one item gets to work, you don't get to pick and choose which abilities from either item works at any given point.
At least I think that is what they are saying. Magic items aren't effects, they are items. That it is either on or off with what they provide.
Rynjin has the right of it.
The enhancement bonuses simply overlap. You take the higher of the two.
In the case of +1 and so forth abilities, you simply can't have a total, that exceeds +10.
That's it.
BBT I think Rynjin is saying that you can't use the AoMF at all with the enhanced gauntlet. So if you had a holy AoMF that it wouldn't give holy to the gauntlet.
@Rynjin, correct me if I'm wrong.But I agree that if you had a +5 gauntlet and a holy... AoMF that the Gauntlet "becomes" a +5 holy... gauntlet.
Read the FAQ that I quoted. It says that Bane can temporarily overcome the +5 enhancement bonus limit, but states that you can't overcome the +10 limit.
The +10 bonus-equivalent limitation is a hard cap for all weapons; you can't exceed that even with class abilities or other unusual abilities.The problem is that the FAQ is incomplete. It says you cannot overcome the +10 cap, but does not say what happens if you try.
Apart from the OP's example, what happens if you cast GMW with a +1 weapon with +9 of enhancement-equivalent abilities? What happens if a +5 weapon with +5 worth of abilities comes up against its bane target?
Do abilities disappear at random?
_
glass.
I agree. There are no guidelines on what happens if you would go over. Some people let the player choose which abilities are applied, and others say that the first abilities that were applied have precedence. I would love to have this issue resolved. But the FAQ does say that +10 is a hard cap on all weapons, so under the rules +12 is impossible. The method of preventing that will vary.
BBT, have you looked at the OP's post? this is talking about when combined with Ascetic style? AoMF augments unarmed strikes. So if you Ascetic style and chose gauntlet as your weapon then AoMF augments your gauntlet too. You could sub any weapon in for gauntlet, the question is the same.
Incidentally, impact doesn't work with light weapons. You seem to be having bad luck with your examples.
Incidentally, the esoteric magus can make his fists impact, but that's neither here nor there. :v
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BBT, have you looked at the OP's post? this is talking about when combined with Ascetic style? AoMF augments unarmed strikes. So if you Ascetic style and chose gauntlet as your weapon then AoMF augments your gauntlet too. You could sub any weapon in for gauntlet, the question is the same.
Gauntlets are not Monk weapons, so it doesn't work with the style.
I felt the urge to clarify both accounts.
Anyways, the +10 cap stands, and your example is correct otherwise.
Good catch, I had overlooked that it had to be a Monk weapon.
I say it's a
+4 1d8 +1d6 fire + 2d6 holy +3 19-20/x3
Incidentally, impact doesn't work with light weapons. You seem to be having bad luck with your examples.Incidentally, the esoteric magus can make his fists impact, but that's neither here nor there. :v
I'm not sure that they can. The standard Magus description says that they can add special abilities to their weapon, but we still don't allow that to override the requirement that the weapon be piercing or slashing for the Keen ability.
Similarly the Esoteric Magus description says that they can add Special abilities to their Unarmed Strikes or weapons. It isn't clear to me that we get to override the restrictions on Impact any more than we can ignore them for Keen.
For the record, I do hope that they can use Impact on their Unarmed Strikes, but I think the wording is ambiguous.
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I say it's a
+4 1d8 +1d6 fire + 2d6 holy +3 19-20/x3
Close, but the base damage would change to 2d6, as monk unarmed strike damage is an effect that enhances an unarmed strike.
Also, there is no reason to take weapon focus: unarmed strike, as Weapon Focus: monk weapon is a prerequisite for the style, and you can't apply two bonuses from the same source.
Yup you're correct. I forgot to check what their unarmed damage was.
Good catch, I had overlooked that it had to be a Monk weapon.
The OP was talking about a Cestus, and that is a monk weapon. Honestly, I've lost track of that part of the conversation so I'm not sure if that makes any difference. :)
It think Rynjin's problem is that you are picking and choosing which abilities/enhancements to add per ability, instead of which item wholly is better (and would be the "winner" between two items working).
If it were magical stacking effects each effect is determined separately so it would be less an issue. But magic items are different, they are sorted by slots and can be packages of effects per slot.
Let us say you are using a plain +2 leather Armor with +4 worth of enhancement abilities. Then you put on Bracers of Armor +5.
The bracers obviously win in terms of AC, but the total bonus of the leather Armor is overall better. Which item is active? When attacked if the bracers are active, do you still maintain the effects of the leather armor?
Simplify it more, you are wearing magical leather Armor with abilities, then don plate armor over it, that also has abilities. Do you get both sets of abilities despite only one of the armors being "working"?
I know it has come up on the boards in the last a few times (multiple armors and effects), but it isn't a subject I follow actively so I don't know if it has had any Dev clarification or FAQ. But my gut says only one item gets to work, you don't get to pick and choose which abilities from either item works at any given point.
At least I think that is what they are saying. Magic items aren't effects, they are items. That it is either on or off with what they provide.
Exactly.