I recently started a pathfinder campaign set in the magic the gathering plane of ravnica. me and two other players i know had fun. A few problems i need help figuring out came up though. First is two players not happy with it. One didnt come to me about their problems and i only found out that he complained at all because i overheard my roommate and his friend on the phone. The other did come to me about their problems saying they didnt feel heroic and when i tried explaining to him that your level 1 your just starting out you dont start out heroic at level 1 and tried to tell him what he did that caused him to take a massive hit with a greataxe (though i think him getting mad at me was also my part because i was telling him what he did wasnt the way i would of done it) but he pretty much ignored me and said i was calling him stupid for being a ranger and using a move action to get in melee with a barbarian and a standard action to use four attacks which brought the barbarians health down to half before raging then when it was the barbarians turn he raged and took a swing at the person who hit him and took his character down to 1 hit point. The next day he said he started understanding that their level 1 now and that their squishy but still seems to be unhappy and i dont know why. Any ideas on how to get them to tell me whats wrong with my game so i can fix it or tell them thats how the rules go?
Next thing is im not sure if i made the first encounter to hard or not. I have a party of 6 at level 1 so thats a AVP of 2 then two of the PCs have 20+ racial points which the book says is another +1 to AVP for them so their a AVP of 3 i think so a easy encounter would be by the book a CR 2 and thats what i made. I threw two level 1 human barbarians and one medium humanoid zombie with +1 HD at them. Now the reason why i think it might of been to hard is because i almost killed half the party with the ranger going down to one hit point on one hit from a raging barbarian and the paladin getting killed by the other barbarian. Now the main reason the paladin died is because i forgot the monsters dont crit rule but i also stepped in and made him live just dying with 2 points from death and he made it at the end of the encounter (mainly because i had the zombie ignore him which is out of character for a zombie to do when nothing else is attacking it lol). The barbarians were using greataxes and chainmail armor and the zombie wasnt really a problem. So was it to hard or did the party just play poorly? Or was it because the party isnt balanced at all? we have a half orc paladin, a kasatha ranger using the beastshaper and skirmisher archetypes, a elf cleric, a elf slayer, a half elf cavalier using the luring cavalier archetype, and a custom race kineticist.
Alright, so, step 1 is always "Sit down with your players and talk about it like reasonable people". Usually it's just that easy.
Now for your actual problems.
First, you need to break up your paragraphs more. They're giant dense walls of text, and it's a little hard to read.
Second, your player wants to be a hero. Level 1 characters are not heroes, for the most part. If you actually want to change this you can offer to let them start off at a higher level (level 3 is fairly good), but this problem is absolutely going to recur if the player's definition of "hero" is "better than other people". So you need a clear definition from them on what "hero" means to them or the problem will likely pop up again.
Third, you made the encounter too hard. The actual CR doesn't matter, level 1 characters have terrible survivability. A single crit will likely kill them, a single failed save can do the same, etc. Things are just too swingy at lower levels. A single crit or a couple good rolls on the enemy's part (or a few bad ones on the player's part) could kill a character very easy. Orc barbarian with an axe is the poster child for this. This is also alleviated by starting at higher levels.
Fourth, while your calculation of APL isn't necessarily wrong, there's a couple problems with how you're using it. The level adjustment for RP is individual, not party-wide. The Kasatha (and probably custom race) should be a level behind the other party members. That's what a +1 level adjustment would mean. Otherwise the other party members will be weaker than the higher RP races, while being forced to face harder challenges that they're a level behind (effectively). Additionally, the swing problem is still in full force. A single level 1 barbarian is CR 1/2, but can still kill any of the players with a lucky swing. The increase to APL for more characters is correct in the long term, but in individual battles (where the party rolls poorly on initiative) it may seem like it's making things too hard. And at low levels, because of how swingy the battles are, it may be making things too hard.
Also, monsters totally do crit. Anything that uses a weapon, natural or manufactured, can crit. Even ray spells can crit if you roll a nat 20. This just highlights how easy it is to accidentally kill players at level 1 though.
As has been said try to avoid enemies that have high damage output at 1st level. It's probably better to have a few more weak enemies that can't kill on a single lucky hit and if possible spread them out so they don't all hit one person or at least not doing so on the same initiative.
That might also help with the heroic feeling. Slaying 6 goblins and sustaining a few wounds feels more heroic than almost getting defeated by two guys wielding axes.
Great advice from 3BOB there.
I would add, if the party want to feel like heroes, through some easy encounters at them at the at the beginning. Just because the books say they should be able to handle the encounters, if they can get some kills under their belt they can feel like the heroes they will be.
I wish it was that simple honestly. I tried talking with two players because they had questions about their characters but wanted to ask them face to face. Well game time came and they wanted to do it over skype and when i asked them they refused to tell me what the questions were.
Dont know if the same thing will happen if i try to addressee the problem the player isnt telling me.
sorry about that my grammar is still crap when it comes to typing ^^"
I wanted to start my game at level 1 because it helps build characters story wise and gives them more time to gather amazing loot that starting at high levels wouldnt give. I think his definition of hero is "better then everyone" really because all his games ive played we started with way more power at our level then we should have.
Thank you i kind of guessed that i did. So if CR doesnt matter how do i calculate what would be a good encounter for a group without having to search and read every monster entry, race, and classes for a level 1 group? When should i start using the CR vs APL table?
Alright thank you ill take their APL down one and go with the 3.5 level adj rules. Yea which it did against the paladin sadly. Think ill keep the +1 APL for 6 players but have them fight weaker things.
oh they do? I have no idea where i read that they didnt then.
Yea that sounds better. Honestly im starting the think the encounter should of been one human barbarian and 2 zombies.
Actually the book said this was suppose to be a easy encounter for a APL of 3 that wasnt the case. But yea i get your point :)
Thank you everyone for your help i think i kind of get it now but still not sure how to work CR then if i ignore it.
Yeah barbarians and orcs, even though the CR is low, can still easily wipe out lvl 1 PCs. You don't want spiky crit damage or huge damage against them.
Instead of barbarians, throw kobolds and goblins at them to start, (or for a changeup grippli, lizardfolk, etc) just add more kobolds and goblins for make up for APL. Bob already addressed you probably calculated APL wrong.
By using more but weaker mooks, this lets them feel heroic without massive damage spikes that might take out a player in one hit. But with more of the enemy, it can still be dangerous.
If, during encounters, it is TOO easy, have some enemies use nets, , tanglefoot bags, and ranged attacks to make sure the enemy uses smart tactics, rather than just increasing damage or hit points of the enemy.
Each adventure/module should have plenty of low-CR encounters, not just equal CR encounters. This lets them practice, and maybe they'll come to you with changes they want to make to the characters, which early on you should allow as people get used to the system.
Alright, so I'll start with the most important part. The problem with CR is not your fault. CR itself, as a system, is very poorly done, especially with regards to classed opponents. You can always do the classic level 20 wizard versus level 20 fighter (or worse yet, naked level 20 wizard versus naked level 20 fighter), but it's even more fundamental than that. A level 1 commoner and level 1 warrior have the same CR. They are not the same. Commoner is strictly worse, but CR doesn't distinguish.
The way to fix CR problems, especially at lower levels, is to eyeball it and make your best guess. As you already did with "maybe one barbarian and two zombies". You should know generally what your players are capable of and whether the monster will be completely immune to them. The low-level one here is the imp. At-will invisibility and flight means it is not a "hard" challenge for level 1 players. It's freaking impossible. Ditto for too high saves (the aboleth has DC 22 dominate monster at CR 7, which is 15+ if it's your good save) and too high attack/damage (clockwork soldier is CR 6 and attacks at +18, or "hits through plate mail on a 2"). These are the ones that are basically super broken for everyone, but you might find some specific to your players (golems who need specific spells your party doesn't have, off the top of my head). So you do need to check monsters with gimmicks or spells/SLAs to make sure that they can't completely shut down your players. Because that's not going to be fun.
Now for starting at higher levels. Players do not need to spend time at lower levels to "build story". They can do that in backstories just as easily. Loot gained in the first few levels (unless you're throwing out Wealth by Level) is worth squat. At level 3 the highest thing you can afford is a +2 item (armor or cloak). And then you'd only have one other magic item. Starting at lower levels does not let them "gather amazing loot". The loot at low levels is crap that gets quickly replaced. Again, unless you're throwing out WBL, in which case you could just give that same gear to the higher level characters. If it's only good for lower levels and the higher level characters don't want it, then it's not "amazing loot".
And finally the interpersonal issues. I'm not really sure what we can do to help. At some point you need to sit them down and talk about it, and if they won't then there's not much you can do.
As others have already said, if you want the to cater to the "hero" you use lots of lower CR creatures. It also makes damage a little more consistent (lots of little chances to hit instead of one big one) and makes them feel like they're "powerful"... as long as they don't catch on they're pseudo-demigods beating up a bunch of weenies. This might end up screwing you if you want to later include harder opponents and the players revolt because they're no longer as "heroic" as they used to be. Again, this goes back to the interpersonal issues, specifically game expectations. You're running Agents of SHIELD and they're expecting the Avengers. So at some point you need to sit down and hammer out whether you make them more over-the-top or they lower their expectations.
So, short answer, don't throw out CR completely but don't take it as gospel. And you need to sit down with your players and agree on a shared set of expectations, whether it be Superman, Robin, Game of Thrones, whatever. You as the GM also have a say in this but the players should also have input. But you need to agree, as one player clearly wants Superman and you're clearly not aiming for that.
Yea i slowly started to realize. Anyone know if there are posted homebrew or a third party book that has a extra rule set on CRs for each different class?
That or i think i should of given the barbarians less powerful weapons but to me that would of just made them less of barbarians. What barbarian doesnt own a greataxe right? As for the clearly higher ranking CRs then they are monsters i think they are specifically made to be bosses or the bosses body guards like a weak evil king but has two clockwork soldiers that follow him everywhere.
Yes all of what you said is true but then the player really needs to think about what they have done to get to the point of a higher starting level like making peace between a tribe of goblins and humans would make a good one but then there are players who get a big carried away and say their character defeated a powerful evil wizard that was controlling two umberhulks when they clearly couldnt of at level 1 or 2.
Yes loot they get from adventuring will get replace with better gear but they miss out on campaign specific like artifacts that may of showed up.
Yes i completely agree with you and nice comparison i couldnt think of one better then that thank you. The only one i can think of is their the hobbits from the lord of the rings just starting their journey yet they want to be aragon and the others that are kicking butt. Next game session i will be having a sit down chat with the players.
Thank you all again for helping me out with this.
One house rule we use is: max HP's for the first 5 levels. (We have since just kept max HPs at every level.) It helps with surviving encounters, especially for levels 1 & 2. It allows the characters to be a little more heroic because they are "tougher" than your average yokel.
Also: not all combat encounters have to be "fight until one side or the other is dead!" Capture, disabling, non-lethal options are just as viable. Knock them about with cudgels to knock them unconscious rather than doing lethal damage; use nets; etc.
And they just have to get acclimated to your style of play. Level 1 isn't level 5, or 10. A level 1 Ranger should be tougher than a level 1 commoner, but not by much. After a couple of levels, yes, they should clearly stand above the crowd.
Good luck to you! GM's are always needed!
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