So my party's APL is 10.5 at this point, and I've been trying to stick to giving them CR equivalent encounters. The problem is, they can barely hit...and they are too easy to hit to the point where the monsters barely need to roll. Is there a different way anyone runs encounters?
Also, how do I make sure as a DM they have level equivalent gear? I don't want them to feel to overpowered and I don't want them to feel under powered.
Any advice?
How are they doing on the Wealth Per Level (WPL) guideline?
So they are lv 10 and 11?
lv10 is 62000
lv11 is 82000
Weapon +3 = 18000
armor +3 = 9000
ring of protect +2 = 8000
amulet of natural armor +2 = 8000
Belt of STR +4 = 16000
this is 59000, so your level 10's should have at least this. That puts it at AC +7 and attacks +5
Also note, CR = APL should be a pretty easy fight that uses like 25% of their daily resources.
How are they doing on the Wealth Per Level (WPL) guideline?
So they are lv 10 and 11?
lv10 is 62000
lv11 is 82000Weapon +3 = 18000
armor +3 = 9000
ring of protect +2 = 8000
amulet of natural armor +2 = 8000
Belt of STR +4 = 16000
this is 59000, so your level 10's should have at least this. That puts it at AC +7 and attacks +5Also note, CR = APL should be a pretty easy fight that uses like 25% of their daily resources.
Most of the party definitely has enough magic behind them to match, maybe even surpass their WPL guideline. The rest might be a bit below.
But it doesn't seem they are as focused as your list. They tend to buy cheaper things with smaller bonuses instead of buying advanced versions of items, or they tend to buy one really powerful item instead of spreading out their wealth.
Not every list is going to look like that though. There may not be places to get > +2 items, even if the PCs have the gold, for example.
Keep challenging them to rethink their combat tactics and their gear. Do they have suitable potion/scroll/spell/wondrous-item buffs? Do they have suitable debuffs? Etc...
Not every list is going to look like that though. There may not be places to get > +2 items, even if the PCs have the gold, for example.
Keep challenging them to rethink their combat tactics and their gear. Do they have suitable potion/scroll/spell/wondrous-item buffs? Do they have suitable debuffs? Etc...
So, I should keep sending level equivalent encounters at them until they learn they may need better items?
Is there any other way to hint at it other than telling them straight out, "Hey, get better s%$*!"
How are they doing on the Wealth Per Level (WPL) guideline?
So they are lv 10 and 11?
lv10 is 62000
lv11 is 82000Weapon +3 = 18000
armor +3 = 9000
ring of protect +2 = 8000
amulet of natural armor +2 = 8000
Belt of STR +4 = 16000
this is 59000, so your level 10's should have at least this. That puts it at AC +7 and attacks +5Also note, CR = APL should be a pretty easy fight that uses like 25% of their daily resources.
Most of the party definitely has enough magic behind them to match, maybe even surpass their WPL guideline. The rest might be a bit below.
But it doesn't seem they are as focused as your list. They tend to buy cheaper things with smaller bonuses instead of buying advanced versions of items, or they tend to buy one really powerful item instead of spreading out their wealth.
What things have they bought if they have more magical items but not these "core" items?
So my party's APL is 10.5 at this point, and I've been trying to stick to giving them CR equivalent encounters. The problem is, they can barely hit...and they are too easy to hit to the point where the monsters barely need to roll. Is there a different way anyone runs encounters?
Also, how do I make sure as a DM they have level equivalent gear? I don't want them to feel to overpowered and I don't want them to feel under powered.
Any advice?
Good rule of thumb: Are there AC's 1.5 their level+15? = Good AC.
Do they have between 20 (bad for level) to 25(average) to 30 (good) and 35 (tank)?Why is 20 bad at level 10? Everyone will hit them.
Why is 25 average? Most will hit them.
Why is 30 good? Some will hit them.
35 is few will hit.
How does their AC fare.
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So my party's APL is 10.5 at this point, and I've been trying to stick to giving them CR equivalent encounters. The problem is, they can barely hit...and they are too easy to hit to the point where the monsters barely need to roll. Is there a different way anyone runs encounters?
Also, how do I make sure as a DM they have level equivalent gear? I don't want them to feel to overpowered and I don't want them to feel under powered.
Any advice?
Hmmm...
Well, if we consult the Monster Creation Table, we can look at benchmark AC/attack values for monsters of a given CR. We probably want to look at CR 10, since a single such creature would be an easy fight, a pair of them would be "challenging", and it would take three of them to really be difficult.
So!
The benchmark for a CR 10 monster's AC is 24. You say the PCs can "barely hit"... Well, let's look at a 10th-level martial character, since they're the ones who should be hitting reliably. Being 10th level, they would have +10 BAB, which all on its own hits on a 14. Now if we assume you didn't give them commoner stats, and further assume that a guy whose main job was going to be hitting things put his main ability score into his hitting-things stat, he should have had at least a +3 even at 1st level. Now we're hitting on an 11. Every full-BAB class also has a way to add at least +2 to attack rolls by 10th level (fighter weapon training, rage, etc), which has him hitting on a 9.
If he put his level-based stat bumps into his attack stat, he's hitting on an 8.
They can squeeze out maybe another +1 or +2 from feats, but everything beyond that has to come from gear. So, what attack gear do your primary attackers have?
Now, you also say the monsters hardly even have to roll to hit the PCs, so let's look at the math there too.
The benchmark attack bonus for a CR 10, attack-oriented monster is +18.
So, the base AC for a PC is 10. Obviously, that's auto-hit (except natural 1s). Then there's the DEX bonus, which we'll pretend is +0 for now. Then there's the armor: a frontline-type PC's average starting gold can afford about a +5 armor bonus and +1 to +2 shield bonus.
So now we're looking at AC 16-ish at 1st level. Last I remember, there's like two feats to boost AC by 1 each (and one of them requires 13 DEX), so they might have an AC as high as 19 just based on the character's own abilities.
The monster is still hitting on a 2.
All the rest of the PC's armor class for the whole game is going to come from gear. So what gear do your frontliners have?
Well, not every group is trying to max out stats with these "core" items.
If you are running custom encounters, you could go with enemies that are easier to hit. You can also customize the loot dropped to include these "core" items as a hint.
If you don't just want to outright say it, you can drop in an NPC to show them the usefulness of buff/debuffs, etc., if that is their issue.
You can just keep challenging them with hard enemies until they realize it themselves after a while. Though, you'd like to think after 10.5 levels they would have.
I'd like to apologize, I don't have their sheets in front of me right now, but will around 6:15pm Central time.
I can say however that most of them have either items that allow them some sort of effect, extra attack, or skill bonus. The ones that do have magical armor or weapons don't have a good magical bonus, and instead they focus on magical effects.
Good rule of thumb: Are there AC's 1.5 their level+15? = Good AC.Do they have between 20 (bad for level) to 25(average) to 30 (good) and 35 (tank)?
Why is 20 bad at level 10? Everyone will hit them.
Why is 25 average? Most will hit them.
Why is 30 good? Some will hit them.
35 is few will hit.How does their AC fare.
Also most their ACs don't follow this rule of thumb. Most of them have an AC probably between 19/20min-28max...
EDIT:
Well, not every group is trying to max out stats with these "core" items.If you are running custom encounters, you could go with enemies that are easier to hit. You can also customize the loot dropped to include these "core" items as a hint.
If you don't just want to outright say it, you can drop in an NPC to show them the usefulness of buff/debuffs, etc., if that is their issue.
You can just keep challenging them with hard enemies until they realize it themselves after a while. Though, you'd like to think after 10.5 levels they would have.
And I have done this, recently I gave them some pretty level equivalent magical gear found on the dead bodies of some adventurers in a dungeon they are in.
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It is a foundational element of the Pathfinder system that PCs' attack bonuses are comprised partially from gear, and that armor class is derived pretty much exclusively from gear. To fix the stated issue of PCs missing and monsters not missing, you've got to either alter the monsters' stats or make sure the PCs get that gear.
This is why they are being hit often. So my rule of thumb is correct as the cause.
As above Jiggy shows, that most CR 10 monsters will hit on a 11 easy a AC 24 (he was talking a Fighter, but monsters are close enough).
Can you give examples of enemies?
A group that is CR 10 (but not 1 single since they couldn't handle those stats):
Maybe a cult of undeath and disease (mostly CR 5's).
Skeletal Mage 2, 2 Level 6 warrior cultist (CR 4), and a Lv 6 Adept (CR 4). Each of the warrior cultist is infected with Blightspawn (CR 5 in its own light)
After 5 rounds, (the rest of group attacks) a Mummy (Spellscribed Lesser so still CR 5) who is guarding them arrives along with 3 more skeletal mages.
The Blightspawn only appearing after death and second group arrives late helps them not be too overwealmed.
We can count the arrive of mummy as a second encounter even if it supplements the 1st.
1) 10200 XP
2) 6400
They can handle that with their AC easily.
A thought:
Instead of CR 10, since they are not within the bench mark of their APL: you could go with CR 9's, multiple CR 8's, etc. If must use a CR 10, give it simple template so it is weaker (then it is CR 9, yay).
There is absolutely nothing wrong with discussing tactical failings you think the party is having with your players. If you think they are spending their wealth poorly, feel free to discuss it with them.
At the end of the day though, the should get to choose how they spend their wealth, and if they want fun tricks instead of the basic items, well hopefully those tricks will see them through.
I might would alter encounters for a brief period to give them time to 'fix things' especially if that isn't easily done in their current situation, and since they might have to sell existing items at 1/2 and purchase new items I might drop a little extra wealth to even things up, but I certainly wouldn't make a long term practice of nerfing my encounters or monsters.
Thank you everyone for your feedback, I will be running the game again today and we will hopefully go over some of the things mentioned above.
Another important aspect of this discussion is what spells they can use to buff and debuff. If they have a wizard and a cleric in the group, those guys should be able to stack significant buffs on their pals much of the time, and debuffs on their foes. Same goes for many other spellcaster classes.
My current group has no arcane and no divine spellcasters at all. They are just reaching level 6, and although they have owned the battlefield up till now, the lack of spells is going to start hurting. bad.
Gear can overcome the lack of spell support to some extent, but it's a significant factor to being able to face encounters above 5th level, and especially above 10th level.
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You could alternatively just implement the automatic bonus progression mechanic from Unchained, then have them convert any existing items of that type into gp. Then they can keep buying interesting magic items and still have the numbers that are expected. I'm not super impressed with the system - I like the idea, but feel the implementation is done poorly - but it sounds like exactly the right fit for your group.
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Another important aspect of this discussion is what spells they can use to buff and debuff. If they have a wizard and a cleric in the group, those guys should be able to stack significant buffs on their pals much of the time, and debuffs on their foes. Same goes for many other spellcaster classes.
My current group has no arcane and no divine spellcasters at all. They are just reaching level 6, and although they have owned the battlefield up till now, the lack of spells is going to start hurting. bad.
Gear can overcome the lack of spell support to some extent, but it's a significant factor to being able to face encounters above 5th level, and especially above 10th level.
Uhh...
The wizard can give out haste (untyped +1 to attacks) and heroism (+2 morale to attacks), for a total of +3. Cleric's bless won't stack with heroism, so if I'm not mistaken all he can add is +1 luck from prayer.
So having a cleric and wizard devoting 3rd-level spell slots to buffs can give the fighters +4 to hit.
Meanwhile, a 10th-level fighter is assumed to have (roughly) a +4 stat belt (so +2 to hit) and a +2 (maybe even +3) weapon. That's a total of +4 to +5 to hit from gear.
So by 10th level, spell buffs are struggling to keep up with gear (and will continue to fall behind as level increases). And you're saying that "gear can overcome the lack of spell support to some extent"? I think you've got it backwards.
Is gear definitely the issue? Level 10 is where the gaps in character builds, teamwork, tactics start to really show. also where the low tier classes start to fall behind. Do you have characters that effectively fill the support role, battlefield control, DPR? Do the players support each other in that assigned role or do they get in each others way/compete with each other? How well built are the characters (they don't need to be fine tuned killing machines, but they can be e.g. statted for melee, but keep hanging back and attacking with a bow)? How well do they use their class abilities/feats? do they forget that +2 to hit and damage from the bard?