(Not sure if this goes here or on the 3PP forums :/ )
Good day everyone! Recently I've started going over DSP psionic classes (started is the key word here), and the Cryptic left my head scratching a little. It has a really cool flavor (certainly more than the Marksman :P), but it feels a little on the weak side for a skill monkey: am I missing something?
By reading around a little, it seems it's supposed to be focused on debuffing, but I'm not really seeing it that much: it's damage and accuracy also seems a little on the weak side, compared to other T3/upper echelon of T4 classes are. It doesn't look it has the skill dominance of the Investigator, or the debuffing capacity of a Mesmerist, and it seems it lags behind the Bard and Inquisitor (even if that isn't that fair of a comparison, considering those are the two best designed class in the game).
I'm sure I'm missing something: could someone lend me a hand? How can I play to the class strengths? What this class isn't?
I think the best way to look at the Cryptic is as a psionic Arcane Trickster.
The main strengths, as I can see, are de-buffing via binding pattern at 4th level; a large number of powers dedicated to defense, evasion, and non-detection; scouting via stealth-based instights and powers; versatility through Scribe Tattoo (basically, psionic scrolls); and advanced trap manipulation (seriously. Puts rangers and rogues to shame). Additional insights can add some more effects to your Disrupt Pattern, or provide a rather large variety of utility (especially at high levels: short invisibility, teleporting, reforming pattern)
Damage isn't really a priority for this class, tossing out high-DC, multi-round entangles is. (the higher your int, the better). Accuracy is easy (in regards to de-buffing), since Disrupt Pattern is a ranged touch attack.
It seems like one of those classes that requires you to approach the game a bit differently than the 'standard' methods, since you're kind of an odd conglomerate of archaeologist bard, walking detector, and possibly trap user (which is actually not a bad idea with this class, since Fold Trap lets you place them effectively mid-combat. Depends on how traps are utilized in your campaign, I suppose).
The archetypes also provide even more variety, as Brutal Disruptor can change the cryptic into a rather effective melee dmg dealer, Grammaton makes for one of my favorite gun-users, and the others provide more new approaches to the game (I've not tested all of these out personally, so I can't vouch for all of them).
TL;DR- The class doesn't play like any other that I've seen, but it's a lot of fun, and quite effective.
Yes, I had seen the entangling insight: that looked very useful, together with the one that added INT to damage as a swift action!
The Grammaton also caught my attention (mostly because of the ridiculous Gun Kata ability, of course: if only it came online earlier, I could go Noel Vermillion on people <.<): unfortunately, it looks it has the same problems all non 'slingers have in using guns, namely the piddly damage and tendency of firearms to blow up in your face. :/
Hm, so out of combat I'm looking at utility trough loading up trough Tattoos, and disarming traps. In combat I should try to entangle people and possibly use Fold Trap shenanigans to make pit and dart traps appear out of nowhere? This last thing actually intrigues me: going trough the list of traps (and seeing so many insights that focus on them), there may actually be something there.
Do you or someone else want to weight in with their experiences with the class in play? I'm still not sure if the class is actually effective with its bizarre shenanigans or if it falls flat in practical play: I'm worried that "approach the game from a different angle" doesn't translate in actual play (i.e. the trap built is just another iteration of poison builds: cool in theory, but terrible in practice). :(
My play experience with them is somewhat limited, but I do know that it's been fun so far.
Yeah, the class doesn't do a lot of damage, but the level of utility the class has (both in and out of combat) makes sure you never feel useless. I feel like a rogue, except A) my contributions matter more consistently, and B) it's a lot harder to shut me down, or do my job better than me.
I'd recommend posting over at the Pathfinder thread on 4chan's /tg/ board. The DSP guys hang around there quite often so you'll get to hear an answer from the horses mouth.
I feel like a rogue, except A) my contributions matter more consistently, and B) it's a lot harder to shut me down, or do my job better than me.
That's not what I wanted to hear D:
Silliness aside, I'm still not seeing a niche that the Cryptic can fill that other classes can't: maybe I'll try to put together a build, and see if it clicks together.And I'd reaaaly like to avoid /tg/ (Even if I know it's one of the more reasonable boards, if I'm not mistaken?) <.<
Silliness aside, I'm still not seeing a niche that the Cryptic can fill that other classes can't: maybe I'll try to put together a build, and see if it clicks together.
I think that's the catch right there- it's not really a unique niche, per se, but a blend of niches that isn't covered very well outside of multi-classing, and done so with at least a few mechanical options that aren't found anywhere else (afaik, anyways).
But then, I also feel like there aren't any 'new' niches, just new approaches to old ones, some better, some worse.
P.S., for Grammaton, your best bet is using Extra Insight to pick up multiple DP debuff options (Binding, Explosive, and Disruptive, especially), and just make a lot of people's day very sad. I'm not sure if the intent was for gun usage to overwrite the normal limitation of 1 DP/rnd, or if it modifies the range, but I've tried it a few ways (keep the 1/round limitation, but make it a rider like the Brutal Disruptor's ability seems to be the most evenly balanced- although I'd love to dual-pistol barrage those debuffs all over the place).
And I'd reaaaly like to avoid /tg/ (Even if I know it's one of the more reasonable boards, if I'm not mistaken?) <.<
Don't worry, those guys hangout on gitp and this board as well, though going to their own board might be the fastest method.
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I'm playing one now. The cryptic is definitely an odd character. I love the flavor. My current character is an explorer who sees the world through mathematics and logic. And kills people with math. I flavor disrupt pattern as interpreting her foes as equations and then mentally adjusting them so they don't balance right. The monk in the group believes that I'm messing with their Chi, but his education was deficient.
As for rules, it takes some thought to figure out how to balance things. They aren't a focused high-power class, but they are a great utility/skill monkey class. I think of them like bard that aren't as concerned with helping others.
When you're dealing with insights, you should probably decide if your priority is mastering traps, boosting your disruptions, enhancing tattoos, or focusing on utility. With one type of build you become a monster knowledge specialist (I'll get to that later)
Disrupt pattern is very useful but very limited. It is supernatural untyped damage, which means that it's very difficult to resist. It bypasses SR, energy resistance and DR. It's a ranged touch, so it's generally accurate. Hardness (difficult to get as a creature) and fast healing/regeneration are the only real answers to this. The 30' range can be a big limit if you're often on big battlefields. The fact that it's a single attack means that in the later game it's primarily a way to deliver insights.
The trick is figuring out how to manage types. Most of the ways to manage types are through feats.
Extra Disruption Type gives you two types of active enemies. It's easy to get and often good for a starting character. If you know what types of enemy are nearby, this is sometimes good enough.
Psionic Meditation lets you refocus quicker to change types quicker.
One Pattern is a hard feat to get, but it solves the active enemy problem. If retraining is an option, retraining Extra Disruption Type is useful. I made a character that picked up One Pattern at 5th, but they were human with 18 int, got Open Minded and used favored class for skills. That's 10 skill points/level, so spending 30 skill points on knowledges by 5th level was possible.
I do suggest getting Expanded Knowledge to get a way of affecting foes beyond 30'. The cryptic power list is almost all utility powers, and you'll use disrupt pattern as your bread and butter attack, but having an option is nice.
Wow, thanks! That's really helpful!
Holy Mother of feat prerequisites One Pattern! That's borderline silly, but I get it about the type limitation: it's probably ok in an AP to just have Extra Disruption type because the types of creatures are usually limited, but it's something that I should pick up sooner or later.
I didn't realize that Disrupt pattern goes trough everything: basically, I'm looking at using Disrupt Pattern for damage at the first levels, and then moving to either a more supporty/debuff pattern or find a way to shoot more Disrupt Patterns a turn with something like the Brutal Disruptor ability, right?
Generally, though, it looks like the class is very feat starved: with no extra feat, and having to pick up One Pattern/Extra type, plus the psionic feat to acquire focus as a move, it looks like the class has very few rooms for other feats. I'm assuming this means that a ranged build is out of the question, then? Not that you really need it, with Disrupt Pattern being a ranged touch attack.
I'll try to put something together and see if I got it.
PS: I'm guessing the answer is "not good", but how is the trap build? It looks like something possible, but if I'm not mistaken traps cost a ton. :/
At 12th level a trap build can end fights in a round. Create a small room someplace out of the way, trap the living hell out of it using your inexpensively made resetting deadly traps (Efficient Trapsmith, Empower Traps insights). Depending on your abilities even collapse the entrance so there is no way to leave. Use Summoning Pattern to send the BBEG there to die horribly. Check in later to loot the corpse.
It requires some planning and thinking outside of the box to make it work, but it works.
I'm playing one now in a higher level Rappan Athuk campaign. I can tell you now that you aren't a "damage dealer". The description of a psionic arcane trickster is fairly apt.
The prereqs for One Pattern aren't that large as long as you take the skill bonus for your favored class bonus and have a relatively high intelligence.
You can use a 4th level psionic power 1x per round to give you a number of disrupt pattern attacks equal to your number of iterative attacks. You can also use Incarnated Schism to give you an extra one each round as well.
The cryptic's niche is a skill monkey/gish debuffer, not a damage dealer.
As far as insights are concerned, if you want damage, go with the ones that mimic the splash damage of alchemist bombs as well as bleed. Then grab whatever feats are there that will improve your minimum damage. At 18th level, I'm doing 10d6 +30 pts of direct damage with 40 splash that turns into 40 bleed in a 5' radius after each attack at 30' range.
While not having the right type for your disrupt pattern lessens your overall damage, it doesn't impact the ability to deliver debuffs via DP. You'll find that as long as you can identify your target, that extra round of setting up the DP for maximum damage isn't as limiting as you may think. Once you have One Pattern, you'll keep that througout your career and the only limitation by type will be whether you get the +1 per level of extra DP damage or not, not 50% damage.
Get Gloves of Disruption as early as possible for that extra 2d6.
I've talked to the Developers on DSP insfar as the Cryptic is concerned, and there are ideas in the works on converting both Rogue Talents and Alchemist discoveries (that apply to bombs) to be convereted to insights...so if you do this judiciously ahead of time, you won't be too much out of order.
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I like to look at them as a warlock type. One real unique feature (disrupt pattern = eldritch blast) that is modded to do debuffs. Not a mainline damager, but a lot of d6 per standard action once per round with a secondary bag of tricks.
Peywin, the iconic cryptic, was flavored a bit like Neo from the matrix after his awakening (when he just saw everything as green computer stuff). She sees how the universe works and attacks those fundamentals with her disruption.
(Note: I got to design the iconic cryptic as a ultimate psionics pledge level reward)
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Get Gloves of Disruption as early as possible for that extra 2d6.
Where does one find Gloves of Disruption? Also is a cryptic supposed to be limited to 1 insight applied to his DP at a time like rogues and alchemists? Or can he have Entangling, bleeding, disabling, shining, and explosive up all at the same time basically reducing his opponent to a pile of negatives?
They are Bracers of Disruption, from Ult Psionics.
Each insight is an SU ability which modifies the disrupt pattern ability, typically an SU ability is a standard action. So I would say that yeah, you get to choose which insight you want and that allows for the attack.
Where does one find Gloves of Disruption? Also is a cryptic supposed to be limited to 1 insight applied to his DP at a time like rogues and alchemists? Or can he have Entangling, bleeding, disabling, shining, and explosive up all at the same time basically reducing his opponent to a pile of negatives?
Get Gloves of Disruption as early as possible for that extra 2d6.
The developers have specifically stated that there is no limit to the number of insights you can put on a Disrupt Pattern attack.
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My DM is pretty skeptical about being able to apply potentially 10 debuffs to a single standard action. Could you possibly provide a link to the developers saying there is no limit? I am hoping they give a reasoning for this. I would love to play my cryptic as a debuffer but as it stands I am stuck as a damage dealer (however he is allowing me to use brutal disruptor with ranged bow attacks so that's pretty cool).
I think his fear is that while he can adjust for PCs that can do tons of damage. Adjusting for someone that can in 1 round reduce his monsters to puddles of penalties & conditions, could prove unbalancing. He says that Rogues, Investigators, Alchemists are all limited with how many effects they can tack onto a sneak attack / studied strike / bomb and he doesnt see any reason the same shouldn't apply to Cryptics.
I dont think there are even 10 isnights with debuffs? How many are there?
My DM is pretty skeptical about being able to apply potentially 10 debuffs to a single standard action. Could you possibly provide a link to the developers saying there is no limit? I am hoping they give a reasoning for this. I would love to play my cryptic as a debuffer but as it stands I am stuck as a damage dealer (however he is allowing me to use brutal disruptor with ranged bow attacks so that's pretty cool).
I think his fear is that while he can adjust for PCs that can do tons of damage. Adjusting for someone that can in 1 round reduce his monsters to puddles of penalties & conditions, could prove unbalancing. He says that Rogues, Investigators, Alchemists are all limited with how many effects they can tack onto a sneak attack / studied strike / bomb and he doesnt see any reason the same shouldn't apply to Cryptics.
The current insight list that can be applied to disrupt pattern is:
Binding (entangled), Bleeding, Dislocating (-2 penalty), Disrupted Healing (50% heal max), Explosive (splash damage 5' radius), Shining Pattern (blind for 1 round)
Only Binding, Dislocating, Disrupted Healing, and Shining are actual debuffs.
As far as "proof" of the stackability, that conversation happened on the old dreamscarredpress.com forums -- and they have since moved to dreamscarred.com
Although you might have some luck with the wayback machine. I was able to pull the Unleashed/Augmented errata off the old forums that way.
Shining pattern also has the disadvantage of harming team mates doesnt it?
Shining pattern also has the disadvantage of harming team mates doesnt it?
Yep, all creatures within 15'..which could include the cryptic.
Also, Binding minimizes all damage (all dice rolled are 1's).
It's worth noting that the cryptic is not immune to his own disrupt pattern effects.
My DM is pretty skeptical about being able to apply potentially 10 debuffs to a single standard action. Could you possibly provide a link to the developers saying there is no limit? I am hoping they give a reasoning for this. I would love to play my cryptic as a debuffer but as it stands I am stuck as a damage dealer (however he is allowing me to use brutal disruptor with ranged bow attacks so that's pretty cool).
I think his fear is that while he can adjust for PCs that can do tons of damage. Adjusting for someone that can in 1 round reduce his monsters to puddles of penalties & conditions, could prove unbalancing. He says that Rogues, Investigators, Alchemists are all limited with how many effects they can tack onto a sneak attack / studied strike / bomb and he doesnt see any reason the same shouldn't apply to Cryptics.
Maybe you should post on DSP's actual website as well?
They definitely check these forums regularly but I know things have been busy with various RL issues for quite a few of the people working on DSP products. If you want/need an answer it can't hurt to cover your bases. At least if you need an "official" answer.
How many insights do cryptics get? I don't have my pdf in front of me, but I seem to remember not having enough to get the debuffs I wanted along with all the other really cool stuff they can get, like tattoo shenanigans and folding up traps. I guess you could spend all of them on disrupt pattern, but you'd be missing out on a lot of unique things they can do.
Insights work like rogue talents. Your first is at 2nd level, I believe and you get one every two levels, with a "Supreme Insight" at 20th.
The developers have specifically stated that there is no limit to the number of insights you can put on a Disrupt Pattern attack.Where does one find Gloves of Disruption? Also is a cryptic supposed to be limited to 1 insight applied to his DP at a time like rogues and alchemists? Or can he have Entangling, bleeding, disabling, shining, and explosive up all at the same time basically reducing his opponent to a pile of negatives?
Get Gloves of Disruption as early as possible for that extra 2d6.
An additional note based on discussions with the DSP developers giving clarification on the Disrupt Pattern attack and the insights that modify that attack.
All insights that modify Disrupt Pattern stack but apply only to the initial target of the attack, even if there is an insight that expands that effect (see Explosive Pattern), except those that effect damage.
I'm looking for a clarification on whether bleeding pattern is expanded in it's effect with explosive pattern or not, since whether it is a "damaging effect" is questionable.