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On a side note, I personally wish ALL weapons used dex to hit (hand eye coordination and reacting to an opening) and str for damage (speed/power of stab/slash/smash/draw), but that's just my opinion.That's just what martials need, more MADness...
Rather casting should be made more mad.
Intelligence can modify spells known/prepared.Wisdom modifies concentration checks
Charisma modifies DC
If I may be so bold, it should not be an option to NOT follow update rules.
Too bad with these old type non-digitalized entertainment forms, good way to enforce it has not yet been found.
On a side note, I personally wish ALL weapons used dex to hit (hand eye coordination and reacting to an opening) and str for damage (speed/power of stab/slash/smash/draw), but that's just my opinion.That's just what martials need, more MADness...Rather casting should be made more mad.
Intelligence can modify spells known/prepared.
Wisdom modifies concentration checks
Charisma modifies DC
This...actually wouldn't be too bad of an idea, IMHO. It would definitely go a long way in evening caster-martial disparity in the area of point buy, at the very least.
I totally support this.
That would really hurt hybrids. Having four required ability scores is hard enough, needing all six would be the end with the standard point buy paradigm.
If I may be so bold, it should not be an option to NOT follow update rules.
Too bad with these old type non-digitalized entertainment forms, good way to enforce it has not yet been found.
So you want to deny people the right to choose which rules they use or don't use?
That would really hurt hybrids. Having four required ability scores is hard enough, needing all six would be the end with the standard point buy paradigm.
No, it wouldn't. It would just be a different environment, with different requirements.
So you want to deny people the right to choose which rules they use or don't use?If I may be so bold, it should not be an option to NOT follow update rules.
Too bad with these old type non-digitalized entertainment forms, good way to enforce it has not yet been found.
Yes if you consider bad rules "faulty".
Why would you let people use rules that do harm?
Rather casting should be made more mad.
Intelligence can modify spells known/prepared.
Wisdom modifies concentration checks
Charisma modifies DC
So you'd screw over all gish classes and damage the flavour of the casting classes... brilliant....
So you want to deny people the right to choose which rules they use or don't use?If I may be so bold, it should not be an option to NOT follow update rules.
Too bad with these old type non-digitalized entertainment forms, good way to enforce it has not yet been found.
Yes if you consider bad rules "faulty".
Why would you let people use rules that do harm?
It is a quite simple answer.
Because one considering something "faulty" , doesnt make it so.
Trying to preach ones subjective preference on other people tend to be a quick way to start an argument.
Hell this doesnt even come into unchained territory , to start with tons of tables already had their own houserules. Good luck telling the GM how to run his/her table.
Yes if you consider bad rules "faulty".
Why would you let people use rules that do harm?
Because this is a game that is designed to let you choose which rules you want to use. Especially with optional rules. Maybe people even have fun using rules you consider "harmful". Maybe your opinion isn't more than just thaat – your opinion.
Yes, such a system would indeed hurt the gish classes. But I think it's a necessary sacrifice in equilibrating casters and martials. Note, not many gish classes focus on spells with DC, and with actual class features separate from spellcasting, spells known/prepared is less of an issue. Concentration checks may be a problem early on, but as always, they eventually become commonplace to make (if you even need to, when you can often abuse the 5-foot step).
If it's still an issue, it's not difficult to allow partial casters use of only one mental stat, like they currently have you know.
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On a side note, I personally wish ALL weapons used dex to hit (hand eye coordination and reacting to an opening) and str for damage (speed/power of stab/slash/smash/draw), but that's just my opinion.That's just what martials need, more MADness...
In a game where armor makes you harder to hit - STR makes more sense as the baseline.
In a game where armor is DR - DEX makes more sense as the baseline. (or perhaps both added together for accuracy - STR for damage)
However - that would be an entirely different game built around the concept from the ground up and not Pathfinder at all. Trying to shoehorn armor=DR or the potential associated changes into current Pathfinder would lead to a hot mess.
Good luck telling the GM how to run his/her table.
Well PFS is already doing that.
That is kinda the conflict point in the end.
I'm pretty sure the unchained Rogue is easily seen as a must-have upgrade.
Good luck telling the GM how to run his/her table.Well PFS is already doing that.
That is kinda the conflict point in the end.
Most people do not play PFS.
Most people do not play PFS.
Good luck telling the GM how to run his/her table.Well PFS is already doing that.
That is kinda the conflict point in the end.
Well, most people like to smoke and slowly kill themself and those around them. What do you do?
You ban smoking in public places. And if they want to do it at their own home, thats their problem.That's what you do with problematic rules or classes. You ban them. And if someone whant's to play them at their home, it's their choice.
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Let's not bring smokers into this.
Indeed, no need to obscure the issue further, concealment won't help anybody.
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On a side note, I personally wish ALL weapons used dex to hit (hand eye coordination and reacting to an opening) and str for damage (speed/power of stab/slash/smash/draw), but that's just my opinion.That's just what martials need, more MADness...Rather casting should be made more mad.
Intelligence can modify spells known/prepared.
Wisdom modifies concentration checks
Charisma modifies DC
Congratulations, wizards with no-save spells (e.g. summons) are now the strongest caster in the game! Again! Only now, nobody has any reason to take anything else.
If you want to nerf casters, there are several ways to do that in the rules already. Throw in Spellblights. Use Simplified Spellcasting to chop down bonus spells considerably. Use Limited Magic. Add Esoteric Components. Require Active Casting + Overclocking, and throw in Wild Magic or Spell Fumbles. There's plenty of ways to make magic more risky and less easy without effectively banning types of caster entirely.
Limited Magic seems to hurt summoners and blasters the most, as crowd control mages don't need to worry that much about spell durations.
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Limited Magic seems to hurt summoners and blasters the most, as crowd control mages don't need to worry that much about spell durations.
It can affect controllers too - caster level affects the size of many crowd control effects (e.g. walls), dispellability, as well as the effectiveness of SR-yes control, while low DC affects control with a saving throw. The reduced CL also makes martial counters like Spell Sunder or a Dispelling weapon comparatively more effective.
If a certain kind of spell, like control, causes more problems at your tables, you can unilaterally decide to make those spells more likely to trigger Wild Magic or Spellblights too.
The point is that there are ways to make magic less reliable/less of a "win button" without going to very drastic measures.
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Most people do not play PFS.
Good luck telling the GM how to run his/her table.Well PFS is already doing that.
That is kinda the conflict point in the end.
That is a sweeping generalization. Having played in five different major cities, I will say pfs involvement by regular pathfinder players varied from very little to being THE PLACE to meet players, gms and others. And from what I could tell on a very unscientific basis was that in some cities they were the majority, with home game players at least doing a little pfs "on the side".
I can see where might get the perception that pfs is insignificant, probably being in an area where pfs is unimportant, but don't think it is something not to be considered.
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As far as unchained goes. I feel horrible for any person who wasted their money on that thing. I feel bad for the trees that were used to make the books. Only usable parts of that book were either rather common houserules from before even PF existed or unchained rogue, and upgrading that piece of garbage was hardly an achievement.
I'm sorry you feel that way but I definitely got my money's worth. Stamina and Automatic Bonus Progression alone were worth it for me, and Summoner getting slapped with the nerf bat was a blessing.
And no matter how "common" you think certain houserules are, putting them in a book still has value because you can bring them to another table or an online game (or discussion) and chances are folks have heard of them.
For every animal you don't eat Unchained you don't buy, I'll buy three *shrug*
Yeah I definitely got my money's worth, even with the extensive list of houserules and homebrew my group uses. I didn't like everything of course, but a giant amount of it was great.
As far as unchained goes. I feel horrible for any person who wasted their money on that thing. I feel bad for the trees that were used to make the books. Only usable parts of that book were either rather common houserules from before even PF existed or unchained rogue, and upgrading that piece of garbage was hardly an achievement.I'm sorry you feel that way but I definitely got my money's worth. Stamina and Automatic Bonus Progression alone were worth it for me, and Summoner getting slapped with the nerf bat was a blessing.
And no matter how "common" you think certain houserules are, putting them in a book still has value because you can bring them to another table or an online game (or discussion) and chances are folks have heard of them.
For every
animal you don't eatUnchained you don't buy, I'll buy three *shrug*
I'm in agreement. I like Stamina, and I think the Unchained Action Economy is a nice system overall. I also like most of the updates to the classes.
I don't think so, and even if—the PFS is not the Pathfinder RPG, and the Pathfinder RPG is not the PFS.
I'm getting really offended by this implications that coventional home games and non-PFS players are somehow inferior or less valuable than PFS games and PFS players, and by the fact that some seem to think that they should be able to dictate how anyone should run their game.
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And I suggest you stop telleing what to say or not to say.
Besides, how do you even know I'm not a Buddhist?
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And for a lot of people it's home game only and PFS does not even exist on their radar. And I bet those still vastly outnumber the PFS players.
I've never actually met a single person who has played PFS strangely.
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30k(assuming that this number is correct) Is not really some massive horde in the grand scale of things. With a bit of googling around I found a rather old figure of revenue of about 12mil yearly. For PFS to be majority the average PFS player would need to spend 200 dollars on average yearly. I doubt that rather severely.
Nobody at least to my understanding is saying that PFS is not a sizable part of their consumer base but trying to claim that they over number the homegamers is pretty silly.
That figure of 12 million? That's not Paizo's take.. that's the sum of everyone including WOTC, Steve Jackson Games, Palladium, who ever owns White Wolf, Shadowrun, Ars Magica, etc. that was the entire amount spent on paper and dice games for everyone.
That figure of course, is dwarfed by the nine figure numbers for any one of the big number board and card games.
Why do you say that? 12mil per year seems about right for Paizo. They have 40-50 employees, not to mention paying all of the freelancers who write so many of the modules and art etc. And remember - that sounds like gross, not net. With 50 employees (rounded up to account for freelancers) that's probably at least 2-4mil right there after not only pay, but benefits, paying 'their half' of social security & other regulatory stuff. (The general rule is that an employee costs 40-50% more than their pay after benefits and the gov taxes/regs involved.) Plus offices/computers etc for all of them - not to mention the servers to run this site, and any $ on interest for loans they may have etc. And that's just the fixed costs rather than the variable ones such as publishing costs/utilities etc.
And that gross amount would undoubtedly include their novels, accessories, T-shirts, and royalties from Pathfinder Online etc. rather than just Pathfinder itself.
However - I'm not saying that you're wrong LazarX - just that 12mil sounds like a reasonable figure - if anyone has the link to where the # is found - I'd be interested. (I work in finance - so I find that sort of stuff intriguing.)
However - even if it is the 12mil figure - while $200 is probably a bit high of an average for the median - it's not ridiculously so for the mean. Just getting the Adventure Path subscription is - I believe - $210 per year. ($25 cover price at 30% off is $17.50 per month - or $210 per year) A guy with a few different subscriptions cancels out several who spend virtually nothing in terms of a mean average.
In the end - even if PFS players aren't the majority, they're undoubtedly a sizable chunk of the player base. And even if they're only 1/5 (as low as I think possible with the #s of 30,000 vs 12mil gross revenue - putting them at only $80 per year mean spending) that's a pretty sizable focus group to base decisions off of. Very few non-service/retail companies hear from anywhere near that % of their customers.
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Just found it - in 2012 Paizo had a reported 11.2 mil gross revenue and 42 employees (not counting freelancers of course). Getting up to 12mil by now seems quite reasonable.
However - the article mentioned that there are 55k players registered formally - I can only assume for PFS
publisher's weekly article from 2013
Also of note - in the article it mentioned that there are over 150k Core rulebooks in print. I'd assume not too many more than that. So - assuming that all Paizo customers have a rulebook (not all of course - some only have PDFs - but that's a small minority - some play without a book at all, but they can hardly be considered customers) - then 55k is approx 1/3 of all players ever. (Though of course - there will be some who bought one and no longer play, as well as some who registered and rarely if ever play PFS.) And likely some of the biggest spenders.
PF has a very large FtP (free to play) side. I know of entire tables where no one has purchased a single item.
These players do not directly contribute to Paizo, but they do help make PF the norm which brings in more players who do contribute money.
PF is the McDonald's of PnP RPGs right now. It's not the best but it is everywhere. You can't be in this hobby anymore and not be aware of Paizo.
IMO: If Wotc made a 5e srd equivalent to the prd they would dethrone PF in popularity but they may not make as much money as they do now because most of their money still comes from selling rules. 5e outsold 4e in half a year.
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I think this threas has taken a turn to the left. All of this doesn't really have anything to do with Unchained.