No, you cannot act and delay.
Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order.
By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act.
You cannot act, and then not act. Either you are acting or you are not acting.
No, you cannot swipe at a minion and then delay anything. Delaying requires taking no action, as mentioned. To get at the spellcaster, you'd have to indeed spend a full standard to ready a ranged attack or a smite or whatever for when he pops his head out. OR just run over there and deal with him.
could you 5 foot step and delay?Yes you should be able to 5 foot step and then delay. Although that can and should still restrict you from moving any other amount of distance or 5 foot stepping again when your delayed turn comes up in order later. As you should still only get one turn a round, and it doesn't imply you would somehow get more, so the 5 foot step should be interpreted as still on your turn IMO.
I would not allow this. The way I read delay the text of delay, the intent is "you choose not to take your turn until later", so you can't start your turn and then decide to delay. If an action can only be performed on your turn, then by definition, taking one of those actions will start your turn.
Although a five-foot step is not an "action", you can only do it on your turn. If you take a five-foot step, you have started your turn and you either have to finish your turn or ready an action.
Now, talking can be done off your turn, as can "non-actions" like knowledge checks or reactive perception checks. So you can make a perception check, identify a creature, tell your buddy to come over and cast a particular buff on you, and then delay until your buddy does that.
Slamy has the right of it.
The other option is to hold an action, but that has to have a more specific purpose.
Slamy, the table on CRB p183 also lists a 5' step as "No Action". So, we have two sources (CRB p183 and CRB p189) with different actions (miscellaneous and no action) for the same 5' step.
However, it really does not matter, since you cannot take a 5' step and then delay.
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
Because you are not taking your other actions until you come out of delay you cannot 5' step and then delay. The 5' step must be done before, during, or after your actions.
Delaying is defined as No Action. CRB Page 183
"Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else[...]".
Talking is a Free Action, so Delaying takes less time than talking.
When your turn begins, occasionaly some things still have to happen(ending or maintaining concentration of a spell, damage effects that might happen on your turn, speaking, etc.). Your turn has to begin, and you cannot say “I delay” to avoid what needed to happen on your turn.
Since, you already had to start your turn and have things happen (free action or whatever), if you choose to delay now then you would be going against (the out of context) “you take no action”, because you have already performed actions.
“By choosing to delay, you take no [further] action [to Delay requires nothing, vs a Ready Action which requires a Standard Action. You are pausing your turn] and then act normally [performing any remaining actions of your turn] on whatever initiative count you decide to act.”
Why would the rules require you to delay your entire turn, and if that is how it worked, wouldn't they say that?
- You are not Delaying your entire turn, you begin it normally and decide to Delay during your turn.
- Rules as written do not say you have to Delay your entire turn. Rules as written uses the word "action" every time.
Makes way better strategy and sense versus...
Wizard Delays. Monster double moves to Wizard, Wizard stops delaying, 5ft steps, casts Mage Armor, and Quickens a Spell.
What if the monster had a ranged attack? The wizard is not being tactically smart by failing to prepare.
Dehkul, that is not what the rules state. There is nothing in the delaying rules that state you can break your turn up like that.
Each round’s activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character’s turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round’s worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity on page 180 and Special Initiative Actions on page 202.)
So, by the general rules, your turn happens once per round and you must perform all your actions during that turn. For you to perform actions when it is not your turn or break up your actions into other parts of the round there must be rules stating that you can do so.
The only rule that even comes close is Ready and it is not breaking up your turn, you are using it to gain an action later on in response to an event.
So, please show the rules quote that states that by delaying you can perform your turn in two or more sections per round because that is not part of the Delay rules as they are currently written.
Summary: You cannot use some of your actions and then delay the rest of your turn until a later time because of the rule on CRB p178 that states all of your round's worth of actions happens on your turn. There is nothing in the Delay rules that changes that. It changes when your turn is.
@Gauss, I will attempt to find more support than I have already offered.
But I do not understand why your quote from CRB p178 disproves what I said.
When a character’s turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round’s worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity on page 180 and Special Initiative Actions on page 202.)
That rules tells everyone to see Special Initiative Actions for exceptions to performing your "entire round's worth of actions" on your turn. And Delay is a Special Initiative Action making it an exception to that line of text.
- The Delay entry does not say you have to do nothing, then perform "an entire round's worth of actions". It says 'you take no action' meaning you stop doing things. Then it either says to act normally or perform a 'Delayed Action'(singular) implying you can delay a single action in exchange for a slower initiative point.
- Readying an Action is breaking up your turn, because you can Move on your turn and Ready an Action to be triggered. But if the action is triggered it only happens then... after your turn iniatially started and during another person's turn. You declared it on your turn(as you would have to in order to Delay) and it took a standard action(whereas Delay takes no action - CRB p182 & 183), but the Action that you readied does not happen on your turn, breaking up your turn.
- In order to Delay, your turn has to begin. It makes complete sense to able to Cease Concentration on a Spell and Delay, or Speak and Delay... To talk to someone, then wait and see how they respond. If you are performing an action (even speaking) on your turn and then choose to Delay, then you have already broken "you take no action". So by your way of thinking the character can't even talk, if they want to Delay.
But I will keep this in mind and look in to it more.
Dehkul, please show the line in Delay that provides the exception. Without that line there is no exception.
You are making several assumptions.
1) You are assuming that "you take no action" is a statement to "stop doing things" rather than a statement of "taking no actions".
2) You are assuming that your turn has begun = you have begun to take actions. That does not make sense since the decision to take actions, or to not take actions, is not an action. It is a choice.
Simply put, your turn has arrived and you are given the choice to delay your turn (taking it later) or to act.
Ready is an entirely different set of rules which specifically allow you to burn an action to take another action later. It clearly spells this out.
Delay does not have similar language spelling out anything close to splitting up your actions.
Regarding Ceasing Concentration, that is a rules contradiction. By that rule if you fail to spend a standard action to maintain the spell and you are unable (perhaps unconscious or nauseated) to spend a free action to cease concentration then you are 'in limbo' regarding the spell.
Frankly, it should not be an action at all. It is the failure to pay for the action to maintain the spell. So it is not a factor to this discussion one way or the other since it is broken (rules don't work right) either way.
Regarding not being able to speak, there is a specific exception there. You can speak when it isn't your turn, that is within the rules. So speaking when you delay is not relevant to this discussion.
Summary: Normally, you are required to spend your entire turn's worth of actions when your turn comes up.
Delay provides an exception allowing you to delay your turn.
Delay does not have wording that provides an exception to the rule that requires you to spend all of your actions when your turn comes up.
Ready does have such language.
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You cannot act, and then not act. Either you are acting or you are not acting.
Do or do not. There is no try.
The quote you provided on page 178, says it is an exception. It would have only refered to Ready an Action, not Special Initiative Actions.
No ActionDelay
By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act.
When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat. When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then,thus fixing your new initiative count at that point.
You never get back the time you spend waiting to see what’s going to happen. You also can’t interrupt anyone else’s action (as you can with a readied action).Initiative Consequences of Delaying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the delayed action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action, you don’t get to take a delayed action(though you can delay again).
If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don’t take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else/Act Normally means continue your turn.
If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent’s CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent’s CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally
Delayed Action is singular, can just be one action.
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Delayed Action is singular, can just be one action.
No. Re-read the part you bolded, you are reading them all wrong.
The relevant part is "When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally.".
The other pieces you boled don't limit you to one action, they say that if you haven't taken at least 1 action your delayed action has never come up.
Dehkul, it is an exception to when you act in the initiative count, not an exception to the rule stating that all of your actions occur one time on your turn. The phrases you bolded do not contradict that in any way. In fact, they reinforce it by stating that you act normally on the new initiative count.
As Diego stated, you are really reading it all wrong.
In the OP's case of a Mage moving from cover, taking a swift action, then moving back to cover, Delay will not help the Paladin.
Delay is to wait until a different initiative count, then take your full set of actions. Since you have no ability to interrupt another player's initiative (which you can get by a Readied Action), you can't insert your actions in the middle of the Mage's turn.
A Readied Action would let you do something as an interrupt during the Mage's turn. That's the whole purpose of Readied action.
wordelo, I think you both have a misconception on how this works. Delay does not delay part of your turn, it delays the entire turn.
Either you are going when your initative comes up or you are delaying it. There is no half measure here, the rules do not allow it.
You cannot expend a swift action and then delay because swift actions can only be spent on your turn. If you are delaying then it is not your turn until you choose to come out of delay.
The Delay rules simply do not allow you to split up your turn like you want them to. For that, you need Ready.
Gauss and Diego Rossi there is no support that Delay only works if you wait to take the entire turn. Just because you can wait your entire turn doesn't mean that the rules force you to do that.
An example of spliting your turn.
How Counterspells Work: To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing to ready an action (see Combat on page 203). In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell.
To Ready an Action, You start your turn on your normal Initiative, the finish it at a later point. Splitting your turn.
The exception that allows you to Delay to split your turn.
When a character’s turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round’s worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity on page 180 and Special Initiative Actions on page 202.)
Gauss said that line is actually making the exception to the initiative order.
The exception that allows you to change Initiative.In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions on page 202).
Delay is an action you can choose to take, that takes no time to do. It is on the list of Actions in Combat you can perform on CRB page 183. The category it falls under is defined on page 182.
Gauss pointed out Speaking is a Free Action that you can do at any point. And I agree.
Definition of Action.
Action: An action is a discrete measurement of time during a round of combat.
Note that the book again just like on p178 does not define an action as only happening on your turn.
I believe the confusion comes from the bolded line. you take no action
By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act.
Everyone has agreed, that you can perform actions (immediate or free), when it is not your turn or when it first comes to your turn(Ceasing a Spell).
The way you guys are reading that line... After you choose to Delay, you can't do anything... you take no action. Then that means after you choose to do the Delay Action, you can't do Immediate Actions or even Talk- you must take no action. By your interpretation... if you are Delaying, then you Speak in game - at that point you would stop Delaying(Because you took an Action).
The other pieces you boled don't limit you to one action, they say that if you haven't taken at least 1 action your delayed action has never come up.
I agree with what Diego Rossi said here, but I disagree with both Gauss and Diego - the wording also does not force you to wait to take your entire turn.
The bolded line is telling you to stop your turn, and it also refers to the type of action it takes.
By choosing to delay, you take no action[by stopping your turn] and then act normally[by finishing your turn] on whatever initiative count you decide to act.
Dehkul, you are still seriously misreading the rules.
Yes, the general rule on page 178 tells you that you perform your entire round's worth of actions when your turn comes up. Then it states that there are exceptions on page 202.
So then you MUST reference what those exceptions provide an exception to. Delay is not providing an exception to the entire thing, like you seem to think.
It is specifically providing an exception to when you are allowed to act.
If you believe delay is providing an exception to how you are allowed to spend your actions then please cite that specific exception. Note: that exception citation must be in the text of Delay. What you keep citing is not an exception to how you are allowed to act.
In short, you and your friend are both seriously misreading the rules. Perhaps you should go ask James Jacobs in his ask JJ thread if you can do this. I am pretty confident that if he should choose to answer, it will not go your way.
Simply put, I have never heard of anyone running it that way. There is no rules support for it.
In any case, continued debate with you and the OP appears to be fruitless. You two came in, asked a question, and have then argued with every person that has clearly shown you why it doesn't work that way.
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Gauss and Diego Rossi there is no support that Delay only works if you wait to take the entire turn. Just because you can wait your entire turn doesn't mean that the rules force you to do that.
An example of spliting your turn.
How Counterspells Work: To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing to ready an action (see Combat on page 203). In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell.To Ready an Action, You start your turn on your normal Initiative, the finish it at a later point. Splitting your turn.
Bolded something that you have missed of you refuse to see:
"You do this by choosing to ready an action (see Combat on page 203)." The action you need to take to split a turn is clearly stated in counterspelling, it si the ready action.
The exception that allows you to Delay to split your turn.When a character’s turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round’s worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity on page 180 and Special Initiative Actions on page 202.)
You must read what each, special initiative action do, that isn't a blanket statement that allow all special initiative actions to split the turn.
Read the text:
"When a character’s turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round’s worth of actions."
And then read what delay do:
"By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act."
It is using an exceptions to "When a character’s turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round’s worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity on page 180 and Special Initiative Actions on page 202.)"
It allow the character not to act when his turn come up in the initiative sequence. So yes, Delay is an exception tot eh whole phrase, but it only allow you to take all your actions at a different initiative.
wordelo, I apologize for lumping the two of you together, it appeared you were on the same page. Now I understand why there was that appearance.
Oh I'm not with dehkul on this. I only asked this question because he was asking.I could have been wrong in my assumption that you cannot split up your turn and I read the actual ruling in the rulebook and dehkul is right in saying that the rulebook says nothing about delaying your whole turn.(meaning the word turn and whole are never used.)
That is why I came here, maybe I have been playing D&D/pathfinder wrong for the last 15 years. after the first few responses I told him it can't be done and then directed him to this thread. Then he started chiming in.
in fact in the session we had last weekend right after I told him he couldn't use smite evil on the bad guy. I had two enemies adjacent to each other and him but not flanking. They had the same initiative count so to save time I moved them at the same time to flanking position.
from
XO
Xto
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Xhe pointed out that only one would get the flank bonus and I said "you're right." and did that.
You could get a double flank in this scenario by using the ready action with a trigger of 'attack when the opponent is flanked', but doing so would limit that particular attacker to a single attack, and not the full iteratives of a full attack.
You understand the situation perfectly wordelo.