
Djinnistorm |
Hello!
My friends and I are about to start Hell's Rebels. My fellows have yet to decide exactly what they are playing, but my plan was to defend them from harm by way of a Sword Board build of some kind. I was originally planning to go Scimitar and Shield, but one of my friends asked me "Why not use a Heavy Shield with a cestus or punch dagger offhand instead?" After some googling (I see that shield bash doesn't need to be offhand now) I'm not sure anymore.
Has anyone experimented with a Heavy Shield/light weapon combo vs the usual 1 hand weapon / light shield setup? Maybe using the brawler archetype instead of base fighter? I've been trying to weigh pros and cons of each, but I'm getting lost in all the theory since I'm not a particularly experienced player.
Any advice on the question or the build idea in general is greatly appreciated, and let me know if I can clarify this in any way.
Thanks!

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As someone who's played the scimitar and light shield fighter, let me tell you, you want to use a ranger to do this, or a slayer. Both ranger and slayer get early access to the shield mastery feat, which is by far the best feat you can get for a shield bashing build.
Usually, the best build is actually a 2 light shield build, if you're going to use 2 weapon fighting, but a heavy shield and cestus isn't a bad choice, since any round you aren't 2 weapon fighting, you can technically 2 hand the shield for 1.5 str to damage.

Djinnistorm |
Thanks for the replies thusfar. I was under the impression fighter was superior to ranger for this task due to the feat intensity of a sword and board build. I guess I need to take another look and plan it out perhaps.
Swashbuckler does look interesting, but I was kind of looking to use shield bashes (and Greater Bull Rushes) for enemy control and fun. I'm not sure what options a swashbuckler has to control enemies, but maybe control in itself isn't a good idea? I'll try and figure some of that out as well.
Thank you so far!

Cheburn |

Thanks for the replies thusfar. I was under the impression fighter was superior to ranger for this task due to the feat intensity of a sword and board build. I guess I need to take another look and plan it out perhaps.
Ranger gets to bypass the requirements for feats. A Ranger can pick up Shield Master at level 6 (5 levels before Fighter), without any needing the prerequisite feats. You can build a 'Shield Fighter' with a Fighter also, but Ranger has some advantages.

Devilkiller |

Using a shield is a great way to boost your own AC. You'll need something more though if you want to protect your fellow PCs directly rather than just standing in front and hoping that the monsters attack you. The Bodyguard feat can be nice. There's a halfling trait which can make it even better ("Helpful" I think)
You could look at the Honor Guard Cavalier and Order of the Dragon to boost Bodyguard or maybe play a Fighter with Cautious Defense and Blundering Defense. Adding Crane Style to the latter would be nice though that's a lot of feats. If you had a shield in one hand and nothing in the other you could even use Crane Wing for a little extra AC boost and then Shield Slam enemies away. A light shield can work with Weapon Finesse and Shield Slam.

Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |

It's an urban adventure, so both urban ranger and Stalker are highly useful. FE: Humans will come in very handy, FE: Urban will, and being able to use CLW wands is always nice.
If you want to take fighter afterwards for the extra feats, that's fine. However, usually one level of TWF for a Shield Build is enough.
==Aelryinth

Cheburn |

Using a shield is a great way to boost your own AC. You'll need something more though if you want to protect your fellow PCs directly rather than just standing in front and hoping that the monsters attack you. The Bodyguard feat can be nice. There's a halfling trait which can make it even better ("Helpful" I think)
Depending on your party composition, Ally Shield could be useful if other frontliners take it. You'd want to pump your AC up so you don't get hit when they use it, but a +4 AC (and maybe another +2 AC from Bodyguard – total of +6) can really do a lot to help a lower AC party member avoid attacks.

Melkiador |

I really like using an aberrant bloodline Bloodrager's increased reach to take AoO shield slams, which bull rushes the enemies back out of your threatened area.
As a bonus, aberrant can help you get the tumor familiar, which you can add the protector archetype to. This means you almost always take half damage, while the tumor familiar's fast healing takes care of the damage it receives.
The main problem with this build is that it is very feat intensive and doesn't really start going until level 7. Also, this build requires you to have a dex of 15+ for the TWF prerequisites.
Human
Dex: 15+
1st: Power Attack(Human), Imp Shield Bash
3rd: Two Weapon Fighting
5th: Aberrant Tumor(add Protector Archetype)
6th: Combat Reflexes(bloodline feat)
7th: Shield Slam
If you choose to not be a human, you will need to lose Power Attack as everything else is even more required.

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Also of note (don't think anyone has mentioned) if you want to use a scimitar with a heavy shield - just take the Shield Trained feat so that the shield is treated as a light weapon.
But - I'll also put down another vote for Slayer/Ranger. Shield Master is an amazing feat - and getting it at level 6 is huge so that you never have to bother enchanting your shield as a weapon.

Melkiador |

Upping your shield's damage is fine, and there are a few ways to do that, but most shield builds won't do as much damage as you could have done by using a weapon meant for damage. What I like about the reaching Shield Slam build is that its damage is present, but isn't as important. Rather, it's ability to bull rush enemies away from your allies is where it shines.

Djinnistorm |
Wow, a ton of responses, thanks for weighing in!
My original desire to try this out came from the Defender of the Weak section of Rogue Eidolon's fighter guide. I was skimming over how one might optimize a 2-hander fighter and I saw that section. The way he suggests "defending" your allies was interesting: being enough of a threat that enemies can't ignore you, preventing enemies already fighting you from escaping, and being somewhat tanky so that doing the above doesn't kill you.
I understand that this will do less damage than a 2 hander build would, and I'm fine with that. I was planning to maybe use Stand Still and Greater Bull Rushes to keep enemies under control (this is why I was considering Brawler for its synergies with such, using a heavy shield and a cestus or something) while still being threatening with TWF to deal damage (getting imp critical and staggering critical if I go scimitar or rapier). The brawler setup would also defend other melee near me with the reduced chance to hit...but I wonder if a heavy shield and cestus will kill damage too much compared to base fighter scimitar w/ light shield?
I see what people mean about shield master and slayer/ranger. Getting that at lv 6 vs lv 11 would be pretty nice...something to consider at least, along with urban ranger as was pointed out. I am worried about whether these classes get enough feats overall, as well as if they will end up tanky enough, but it is worth looking into for sure.
I...think that responds to most of what's been mentioned. Thanks again for all the advice so far!

Devilkiller |

I haven't felt the draw of Shield Master as much as I thought I would. Perhaps that's because the DM sets an upper limit on the "plus" value of magic items. It was +2 until recently, but now that it has gone up to +3 Shield Master is looking a little nicer.
If you had a heavy shield that's +3 as a shield and +1 Cruel and Furious as a weapon what would you end up with for the weapon enchantment if you took the Shield Master feat and entered a Rage? Would it be a +3 Cruel shield or a +5 Cruel shield? With +3 Cruel I'd be pretty much in the same place I am now (besides getting rid of the -2 penalty for TWF of course)

Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |

The two enhancement bonuses DO NOT STACK. Weapon and Armor enhancements are totally independent of one another.
So, you'd end up with a +3 Cruel Shield...but you wouldn't have to be Raging.
Shield Masters look at two enhancements on the weapon side - Defender and Guardian. This allows them to put all the weapon enhancements towards an AC bonus, OR a save bonus, at will, since they don't need the +enhancement.
After that, everything else is gravy.
FYI, I believe there is also a Guardian armor enhancement that raises the bonus by +2 against a specific foe (like, an anti-Bane). So, if you're going into a demon or undead heavy module...
Depending on whether your DM lets spiked and Bashing still stack (Per FAQ, ATM they do not), your target shield as a SHield Master is: +5 Large Spiked Bashing Shield, +5 Guardian Defender (Henceforth, an Uber SHield).
2-12 (or 1-8) x/20 dmg, no TH penalty.
+7 Shield AC all the time.
Up to another +5 AC or Saves when in melee, your choice.
==Aelryinth

Devilkiller |

We've disagreed about the Defending bonus before. I think the intent is that you have to be affected by the attack penalty to enjoy the AC bonus. This certainly seems to align with the intent of the FAQ which said you need to attack with a Defending weapon to gain the AC bonus. I'd imagine that Guardian would probably work in a similar way.
Either way, I wonder how other enchantments which don't affect the enhancement bonus would work. I mean, if the weapon side is enchanted as +1 flaming shocking I'd kind of expect that you would end up with +3 flaming shocking and still get the extra 2d6 damage on each attack. If it were +1 holy I'm guessing you'd end up with +3 holy, beat DR/good, and get the extra +2d6 damage against evil creatures.
I suppose Bane might be a mixed bag since the +2 boost might or might not apply but I'd expect that the +2d6 damage probably would. I guess this is kind of a derail, but it seems like stuff a PC aiming to take Shield Master would want to know. For my PC I guess the most important part is understanding if the Cruel enchantment would still work or if it somehow gets displaced by Shield Master.

Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |

The +2 Enhancement bonus of Bane would not apply if you are relying on the Armor Enhancement to do the damage. The +2d6 would, however, just like it would still be holy.
Defender says you have to be in melee and attack with the shield. Not that you actually have to be penalized on the attack roll. Shield Master conveniently gets around the problem.
So, yeah, it's completely possible to have a +5, +1/+9 Shield and get a lot of carrier effects if you want to do so.
But, come on, it's a shield. It's never going to be the best weapon out there, but if you're going to spend 300k on a piece of gear, it better be freaking WORTH 300k to use.
It takes 108k to buy a +5 bashing, +5 Defender shield. That's the equivalent of a +7 weapon. It had BETTER be good!
==Aelryinth

Devilkiller |

I don't think we're likely to agree about the Defending property. I guess maybe other people could offer their views, but even If Jason Buhlmann popped in and said it works the way you say my DM would probably just kill the PC flat out if i tried to use that.
Anyhow, I can't spent 300K since I have a +3 limit. If you're right about the enhancement bonuses then I suppose maybe I should start looking for a +1 bonus to replace Furious with though.
Setting aside my own derail for a moment, if the OP doesn't use a two-handed weapon he or she might want to consider various options for raising one-handed damage. I had a non-TWF PC with a sword and light shield who did good damage when he was smiting evil but sometimes had trouble putting up exciting damage totals against the campaign's many Neutral enemies. The Bane Baldric was a great help to that PC, and the Deliquescent Glove helped too. Adding 3d6+2 damage per attack can be enough to take you from nuisance damage to a real threat. If you have high enough AC to stay up and keep dealing damage for a long time you might even end up doing more damage in the long run than a two-handed Power Attack PC who sometimes falls down or runs away.

Darksol the Painbringer |

I don't think we're likely to agree about the Defending property. I guess maybe other people could offer their views, but even If Jason Buhlmann popped in and said it works the way you say my DM would probably just kill the PC flat out if i tried to use that.
Anyhow, I can't spent 300K since I have a +3 limit. If you're right about the enhancement bonuses then I suppose maybe I should start looking for a +1 bonus to replace Furious with though.
Setting aside my own derail for a moment, if the OP doesn't use a two-handed weapon he or she might want to consider various options for raising one-handed damage. I had a non-TWF PC with a sword and light shield who did good damage when he was smiting evil but sometimes had trouble putting up exciting damage totals against the campaign's many Neutral enemies. The Bane Baldric was a great help to that PC, and the Deliquescent Glove helped too. Adding 3d6+2 damage per attack can be enough to take you from nuisance damage to a real threat. If you have high enough AC to stay up and keep dealing damage for a long time you might even end up doing more damage in the long run than a two-handed Power Attack PC who sometimes falls down or runs away.
I don't see what the problem is. RAW, here's the breakdown:
You're getting 2 sets of +5 Enhancement Bonuses to hit and damage; one is from the actual Weapon Enhancements, the other is from the Shield Master feat, adding your Shield's Enhancement Bonus to Attack and Damage Rolls (as an Enhancement Bonus). These two do not stack with each other, so only one of them applies at a given time. But that doesn't mean you don't have that weapon normally enhanced as a +5 Weapon. It's not much different than a +5 Weapon and GMW. If I chose to dispel or pull some Mage's Disjunction crap on your +5 Weapon, your GMW would then apply.
Now, let's throw the Defending property into the mix. Here's what the Defending property says:
A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon's enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the bonus to AC lasts until his next turn.
The only way the Defending property benefits would not apply is if he's not making attacks in the same round, or he doesn't have a Weapon Enhancement bonus (which is normally not possible anyway). I mean, the weapon is normally enhanced at a +5, so by RAW, it is allowable to transfer, unless you're going to say that the Weapon Enhancement that it innately possesses, does not exist.
A more ambiguous argument would be if the increased enhancement bonuses from the Furious or Bane properties would be applicable for the Defending property to allocate. If that's the case, tacking on the Guardian property, you're looking at up to 9 AC to either Saves or AC, which is insane. Even splitting it down the middle, a +5 AC/+4 Saves, or inverse, is still very nice.
But that takes a lot of investment. Quite frankly, the Shield Master feat chain (as well as the investment of other shield feats, not to mention dual-enhanced shields) are perhaps one of the only few Martial investments that don't completely suck, and are also the most expensive/feat taxing ones there are. If you're going to nerf one of the few strong points for taking this weapon option, then you might as well obliterate both Sword and Board and TWF from the game; because this is practically the only good option besides just Two-Handing. And practically every single optimized build uses Two-Handed Weapons.

Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |

The main reason 2 weapon fighting falls behind a 2h'er is the penalty to hit.
That's it. that's the biggest thing. that -2 to hit is what costs 2wf the damage crown.
A Shield Master does not suffer that 2wf penalty. So, he may have an inferior weapon...but he hits just as frequently with it!
Thus why people say to use the shield as the primary attack, and have your other weapon be the off hand. If you are a fighter, you'd make it from the close combat group. Another class, just make it a light weapon.
A shield is also a large enough weapon to be wielded with 2 hands.
A +3 Shield is also barely more expensive then a +2 weapon, meaning a Shield Master gets a better weapon, faster then a normal weapon wielder...and so actually hits MORE often.
Shield Master is a very strong feat all the way around.
==Aelryinth

HeHateMe |

Personally, I'd go with a Ranger or Slayer (I like Slayer much better, but up to you), choose the Weapon and Shield style, bash with a heavy shield in your main hand and a high crit range weapon (I like kukri) in the off-hand. Take Shield Slam, Shield Master, TWF and Bashing Finish and have a great time.