I'm creating a PC who will be going into D. Disciple soon, and I read up on Blindsense (not to be confused with blindsight).
Am I missing something? The description reads, pretty much verbatim, "This is just like Blindsight. It does not however let you see through anything at all that might make it harder to see things." If it didn't have a range limit then I guess I could see the use of it.
Does it really only remove the distance penalties to perception checks within it's range? Which isn't very far to begin with, I might add. As that's what my reading of it tells me.
Edit: In case this comes across as overly negative, I'd like to clarify that I do think the rest of the classes abilities are pretty cool and clearly useful, but as a sometimes-GM, I'd like to know if I'm missing something important for future reference as well.
Just think of it like tremorsense, but without the enemy needing to touch the ground. You can pick out which square enemies are in, but that doesn't change the miss chance if you can't actually see them with eyes.
What it removes is the perception check to notice the enemy is in that square. It is like trying to stealth on someone in bright light in an open field. They can tell exactly where you are.
Blindsense (Ex) Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
You're still affected by miss chance normally.
Blindsense basically just allows you to automatically locate what square an enemy is in without needing to make a perception check to do so.
It's still a useful ability against anything trying to sneak around you because you know exactly what square it's in. Which allows you to direct allies to its location and enables you make attacks against it (albeit with the miss chance still in play). It's better than trying to poke around blindly not knowing where the enemy is.
Yeah, Blindsense basically makes you impossible to sneak up on in melee, and that's about it.
Does this mean an invisible opponent would still deal sneak attack damage? Or because the PC knows where they are they would need to flank, catcch the PC flat-footed, Etc...?
Blindsense doesn't stop you from losing your Dex bonus versus an opponent you can't see.
Another way to look at it- it is like a stronger, faster scent ability.
Useful for locating enemies' squares, but that doesn't stop things from being invisible.
Hmm, I think I get it now. It's better than it looked, like I thought. Still best for a caster who only needs to know what square to target with an AoE. Thanks for the help everybody!
And it is also useful for casters so they can shoot out a glitterdust.
Admittedly, anyone with a cl 1 wand (750g) can do that. Or maybe use that old flour pouch trick.
Still yes- useful so you can make the invisible thing more obvious to your friends too.
Does Blindsense help against Illusions? For example, say a group enters a room where a Wizard is waiting for them. Among his buffs are Stoneskin, Project Image and Invisiblity. All but one fails their Will save and believes the Wizard is where he appears to be. The dragon (yes dragon) attacks the wizard (image) but can't seem to hit. Would he know there's another person in the room beyond his party and the apparent wizard?
Does Blindsense help against Illusions? For example, say a group enters a room where a Wizard is waiting for them. Among his buffs are Stoneskin, Project Image and Invisiblity. All but one fails their Will save and believes the Wizard is where he appears to be. The dragon (yes dragon) attacks the wizard (image) but can't seem to hit. Would he know there's another person in the room beyond his party and the apparent wizard?
Project image?
Yeah, that one might stick. Unlike lower level illusions, this includes sight, sound, and scent.
I doubt it would fool tremorsense though (since the image has no real substance to cause tremors, while the real body does).
The invisibility wouldn't shut you down though. Actually, blindsight makes invisibility a relatively poor move. Your blindsight should still sense the dragon, and you know visually there should not be a dragon there. So aim for the invisible dragon standing next to the visible dragon (...yeah, who needs spell craft check to spot each spell cast to tell what is going on). At that point, invisibility is purely just for the concealment...so why bother have the project image up?
No, if you want to take advantage of project image, you need to be as visible as possible when dealing with blindsense, since that means there are two equally visible dragons.
So overall...blindsense doesn't solve all the problems here, but it does add enough of a complication that such combo of spells would no longer work well together. So net win.
Does Blindsense help against Illusions? For example, say a group enters a room where a Wizard is waiting for them. Among his buffs are Stoneskin, Project Image and Invisiblity. All but one fails their Will save and believes the Wizard is where he appears to be. The dragon (yes dragon) attacks the wizard (image) but can't seem to hit. Would he know there's another person in the room beyond his party and the apparent wizard?Project image?
Yeah, that one might stick. Unlike lower level illusions, this includes sight, sound, and scent.
I doubt it would fool tremorsense though (since the image has no real substance to cause tremors, while the real body does).
The invisibility wouldn't shut you down though. Actually, blindsight makes invisibility a relatively poor move. Your blindsight should still sense the dragon, and you know visually there should not be a dragon there. So aim for the invisible dragon standing next to the visible dragon (...yeah, who needs spell craft check to spot each spell cast to tell what is going on). At that point, invisibility is purely just for the concealment...so why bother have the project image up?
No, if you want to take advantage of project image, you need to be as visible as possible when dealing with blindsense, since that means there are two equally visible dragons.
So overall...blindsense doesn't solve all the problems here, but it does add enough of a complication that such combo of spells would no longer work well together. So net win.
One thing to clear up. The Wizard was the opponent and was projecting an image of himself on the opposite side of the room from himself, and the dragon was a part of our party.
I believe Project Image's inclusion of sound would make it trick Tremorsense.
Blindsense would not let you "see thru" the Illusionary Project Image,
You failed a Will Save which already covered using all your faculties, so you are believing the Illusion.
But you could sense the location of the Invisible character.
You of course don't know what it is unless you have actual Blindsight.
FYI: It's only Perception DC 20 to "Sense the presence of an Invisible creature within 30'" (under Invis rules, not Perception)
And you can even pin-point the square with a DC 40 check which may be do-able at high levels.
Blindsense is just making those checks auto-pass, and/or extending the range (in some cases).
Blindsense gives automatic notice of someone in your 30' sensing radius. I remind our GM of this whenever I think it may be relevant.
If you walk into the room with the Wizard and fail the will check, you believe in the Projected Image. Blindsense doesn't let you auto save for a Project Image type illusion that includes sight, sound, and scent. If you specifically asked does it detect to your Blindsense, then the DM could give you a bonus to your save.
If the real wizard is also within 30', then you know something invisible is in that separate square.
Since the Blindsense kicks in after your DD already has a breath weapon, breathing on the square is one obvious response. Not necessarily best, but doesn't require pre-equip with wand or having the spell known.
I believe Project Image's inclusion of sound would make it trick Tremorsense.
Blindsense would not let you "see thru" the Illusionary Project Image,
You failed a Will Save which already covered using all your faculties, so you are believing the Illusion.
But you could sense the location of the Invisible character.
You of course don't know what it is unless you have actual Blindsight.FYI: It's only Perception DC 20 to "Sense the presence of an Invisible creature within 30'" (under Invis rules, not Perception)
And you can even pin-point the square with a DC 40 check which may be do-able at high levels.
Blindsense is just making those checks auto-pass, and/or extending the range (in some cases).
I think that everyone might give at least a little priority to the invisible guy hanging out with the wizard.
I might as well ask "Who is that invisible guy?" Then I could do sense motive when he says "IGNORE THE MAN BEHIND THE INVISIBLE CURTAIN".