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So I had a few players who were interested in teamwork feats, but they were each looking at DIFFERENT feats and couldn't afford the feat tax to cover the different things everyone wanted. That got me to thinking that it would be nice if teamwork feats could be based on a team working together to support each other's skills rather than all having to develop the SAME skills;
Your team members know how to support each other's strategies.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, One teamwork feat
Benefit: All allies who have this feat are treated as if they possessed all teamwork feats solely for the purpose of determining whether each ally receives a bonus from their own teamwork feats. Any positioning and action requirements for teamwork feats must still be met, and no ally receives any benefit from teamwork feats they don't actually possess.
Basically, it is like the Inquisitor 'Solo Tactics' ability, but only works with other allies who also have this feat.
Would this be unbalancing? Is it still not enough to make teamwork feats more commonly used? Would it cause problems with any of the classes / archetypes that already have special handling for teamwork feats? Should there be different prerequisites / limits on how it works?
I would loosen up the requirement a bit (remove the prereq) so that you always count as having the teamwork feats that your allies have, with the stipulation that you can only gain the benefit of one at a time. Work it out somehow so that having the actual teamwork feat is still better, but taking this feat allows someone to dabble.
Have you tried a cavalier?
Maybe just houserule that you can use your Teamwork Feat if an ally does the positioning thing, but you only get half the benefit. If your ally has any Teamwork feat, you get the full benefit of your Teamwork feat, and your ally gets half the benefit of your Teamwork feat.
It seems like most Teamwork feats give out bonuses in multiples of 2, so this might work.
There's several classes that gain the benefits of teamwork feats without having allies take them.
So I had a few players who were interested in teamwork feats, but they were each looking at DIFFERENT feats and couldn't afford the feat tax to cover the different things everyone wanted. That got me to thinking that it would be nice if teamwork feats could be based on a team working together to support each other's skills rather than all having to develop the SAME skills;
Your team members know how to support each other's strategies.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, One teamwork feat
Benefit: All allies who have this feat are treated as if they possessed all teamwork feats solely for the purpose of determining whether each ally receives a bonus from their own teamwork feats. Any positioning and action requirements for teamwork feats must still be met, and no ally receives any benefit from teamwork feats they don't actually possess.Basically, it is like the Inquisitor 'Solo Tactics' ability, but only works with other allies who also have this feat.
Would this be unbalancing? Is it still not enough to make teamwork feats more commonly used? Would it cause problems with any of the classes / archetypes that already have special handling for teamwork feats? Should there be different prerequisites / limits on how it works?
I love this. You are a genius.
I love this. You are a genius.Agreed. A feat like this can clearly give more interrest in the teamwork feats.
Have you tried a cavalier?The main issue with Cavalier is that you actually force a player to shoulder all the "Teamwork" abilities of the group. It's not really characters that helps each others, but rather one char that helps everyone.
The advantage of a feat like the one proposed by the OP is that it allow the whole group to "share" the cost of teamwork feats, rather than force it all on one character.
+1
Archives of Nethys
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You could consider being a group of Druman Blackjackets.
Might not pan out for a longterm game, but for something shorter getting a group of these guys seems like it could be a lot of fun, especially if you all take different teamwork feats.
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Thoughts on various suggestions;
Half benefits - I thought about something like this, but there are also several teamwork feats that don't provide numeric bonuses at all. I didn't want to get into figuring out alternatives for each feat so I stuck with existing mechanics.
No feat required - Just letting anyone with any teamwork feat support any other teamwork feat is nice because it eliminates a one feat 'tax'. However, it would effectively mean that all characters have the equivalent of Inquisitor's 'Solo Tactics', making that class ability largely or completely redundant.
Benefit w/o teamwork feats - This is a nice idea and goes hand in hand with eliminating the teamwork feat pre-requisite. It also extends the idea of a team supporting each other beyond just teamwork feats and makes it plausible even for someone with no interest in taking teamwork feats to take this one to support the rest of their group.
Teamwork classes - Yep, there are other ways to make teamwork feats viable, but I was looking for a way to make them more useful for characters who aren't playing one of those classes.
Druman Blackjackets - Again, the goal is to make teamwork feats viable for all classes. That said, modifying 'Blackjacket Tactics' into a general feat would achieve similar results. Could even have multiple 'team working together' type feats... one like the OP which only benefits the character with the teamwork feat, another like 'Blackjacket Tactics' which benefits multiple parties but has other limitations, another where you can share a teamwork feat with one ally, et cetera. Basically, taking versions of the different class abilities which extend teamwork feats and turning them into feats.
I would remove the prereqs, to be honest.
Have you tried a cavalier?The main issue with Cavalier is that you actually force a player to shoulder all the "Teamwork" abilities of the group. It's not really characters that helps each others, but rather one char that helps everyone.
The advantage of a feat like the one proposed by the OP is that it allow the whole group to "share" the cost of teamwork feats, rather than force it all on one character.
Not necessarily, not only does the cavalier get free teamwork feats, but he also gets free combat feats (which can be used to purchase teamwork feats) on top of the fact that most cavalier builds aren't feat intensive. Most groups also don't need every teamwork feat. I agree it would be entirely on the cavalier to have all these feats, but the cavalier was designed to do that without burden and now the rogue can join the teamwork party without losing even more build strength.
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My thought is that teamwork feats should simply work like Solo Tactics, and Solo Tactics is what should be altered. Maybe teamwork feats require regularly drilling with a team to gain the benefit if they don't have the fest, and Solo Tactics allows the Inquisitor to effortlessly gain the benefit with allies outside the party? Or they could have an ability to take advantage of enemy positioning for teamwork feats? O maybe expand her ability to alter her Teamwork feats on the fly?
I agree it would be entirely on the cavalier to have all these feats, but the cavalier was designed to do that without burden and now the rogue can join the teamwork party without losing even more build strength.The cavalier can take care of it, true, but does that means that a group without a cavalier can't have any teamwork ? No.
Rather than asking every players to take a feat, you'd rather force one single player to play a cavalier, when none of them would want that ?The main issue of teamwork feats are that despite being "Feats", they functionally are in fact class features for a small set of class&archetype that possess Solo Tactics or Tactician.
You could tell every player to make a 1-level dip in cavalier if they want to benefit of a chosen teamwork feat, but then again, more that one build would prefer to burn a feat rather than a whole level for this.
That said, I find the current concept of Teamwork feat incredibly clunky and unpractical. Despise its faults, I preferred the system proposed by 3.5's PHB II. I think it actually was a good idea, but not well implemented. Pathfinder's way of teamwork doesn't feel anything like teamwork.
Sometimes its better for the fighter to reflavor (or recrunch depending on how you look at it) his character than the rest of the feat starved party to choose to miss out or lose other benefits.
Personally, I've always ran it so if I have the outflank feat, anyone who flanks with me along with myself get the benefit but that same guy and another guy flanking together still get regular flanking rules. The rest of the feat would follow a similar style, otherwise teamwork feats are another feat tax with pretty meh benefits for the entire party picking it up.