You can't travel more than your move with a jump, so you'd have to somehow double your move first without the aid of magic.A normal character can move 60ft a round.
No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round.
120 feet a round. Running is normal movement, you just have to be in a straight line.
You can jump as part of normal movement. A running jump, surprise! even requires a running start.
So even a normal person could jump 110' in a round without violating movement limits.
==Aelryinth
And what makes those distinguishable from running as fast as an arrow (which you can do in pathfinder with the right build).What build gives you a move speed of 300'?Well, you said 200 ft/sec. So that's 1200 feet per round.
The fastest I can get is 990 feet in one round - without magic.
So not quite up to speed as I originally thought. But pretty darn close! That guy is moving at 165 ft/sec. Or 112.5 mph. Usain Bolt hit around around 23-24 mph as the fastest human.
Someone could probably build a faster guy than me.
Elf. Martial Artist Monk 14. (w/ FCB). Cleric 1 (travel domain). Oracle 1 (Cinder Dance). Barbarian 4 (rage powers: swift foot, sprint). 10 fleet feats. Total movement = 165 with a x6 sprint = 990 ft in one round. And none of these speed bonuses are magical.
Of course, per second is a weird thing in PF.
Because after you've run your 990' in the round, you stop and then the next however many people are involved each get to do their full action. All of which happens sequentially and takes only 6 seconds.
The more people you have on the field, the faster you cover those 990 ft and the more time you spend standing around. :)
You could, for example, run an entire relay race in one round, assuming you staged runners properly.
Lets not get into the 'pass me the baton' railgun, please!
==Aelryinth
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It's worth noting that in the West here, superhuman martial events of legend and myth are usually ascribed to heroes with great magical treasures and/or divine bloodlines.
In the East, working your way up from normal human to godhood is a part of the standard mythology, and favors the warrior over the caster, even!
==Aelryinth
Repeating the questions:
1) If someone, say, has 20 or more Con, Dex, or Str would they qualify for having super unrealistic things without explanation?
2) Whats the general limit of power for an at-will magical ability? You can express this in terms of spell level, number of feats and/or level limits.
3) Would you count Stamina as an at-will resource when determining the power of abilities that use it?
4) Would it dilute the concept of the fighter if he could learn magic symbols to place on his sword/armor that would grant things like a temporary fly speed, elemental damage, or bonuses to a save?
5) Given that a fighter, thematically, is just a regular guy what do you expect him to do against magic things that happen at high levels if he is high level?
6) Same question as #4 but with alchemical items.
Envall
Repeating the questions:
1) If someone, say, has 20 or more Con, Dex, or Str would they qualify for having super unrealistic things without explanation?
2) Whats the general limit of power for an at-will magical ability? You can express this in terms of spell level, number of feats and/or level limits.
3) Would you count Stamina as an at-will resource when determining the power of abilities that use it?
4) Would it dilute the concept of the fighter if he could learn magic symbols to place on his sword/armor that would grant things like a temporary fly speed, elemental damage, or bonuses to a save?
5) Given that a fighter, thematically, is just a regular guy what do you expect him to do against magic things that happen at high levels if he is high level?
6) Same question as #4 but with alchemical items.
Envall
1) They certainly would be almost unnaturally strong/tough/agile right? 10 is "average" but 20 is the best that any race can achieve without alteration so I would say that it doesn't need explanation. Some elves (rare clearly) are that smart, some dwarves that tough or wise, etc etc etc.
2) Given that it completely dependent on the effect I would say "it depends"
3) I certainly would and it (to my mind) is slightly more appealing than being based on class, stat or other mechanical feature that is static. I think things like this and "grit" that have a way to get replenished via multiple routes are good.
4) I would say "it depends". As noted in the thread some folks want heroes that maybe gain abilities but aren't steeped in "magic". I think systems that allowed what you are describing makes sense and could be a good mechanical compromise (basically you can craft magic without having magic) but I can see that some folks want the perception that the fighter achieves via "skill" not outside power. Of course even Achilles had his ass dunked in supernatural water and Thor is not human so how a "normal" individual achieves that without some sort of interference might be up for debate.
5) See my answer to 4. Though I will note that if there were hard baked "social" or "plot" hooks baked into level progression a la Ad&D and other systems this might help too. Say you hit level 10 and one of your level up benefits is "Warrior's Journey" this can be handled in game, out of game, explicitly or implicitly (much in the same way suddenly getting followers and a castle used to be handed down at certain levels) once that journey is complete you are now "level 10"...the substance and detail of said journey are of no mechanical benefit save to mark the level but narratively it establishes that Odysseus has returned home or Conan has wandered the earth or what have you and the next set of journeys are now by a creature who is somehow more than he/she/it once was. It provides something to explain "how does that person fell beasts of myth?" with the response "ah they went on a journey and returned something more than normal" or what have you.
6) But its science! Of course its different? Anyone can do alchemy...if they have skills...which fighters don't...but I think the idea of treating weapons with "stuff" to make them do "things" is all well and fine but it causes thematic issues for folks who merely want their folks to do the things themselves.
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Hawkeye and Widow are not the same level as Hulk or Thor so comparing them seems strange? A level 18 fighter who is capped within the realm of what those two (Hawk and BW) characters can accomplish points to the heart of the issue.
To my mind the Marvel universe is a great analog to PF/D&D. BW and Hawkeye are level 7-10. Hulk and Thor are 18-20. Most of the time Spiderman is clocking in around 13? Same as Cap? That is a universe with a martial/caster disparity and I will be interested to see how the movies integrate Strange who is generally dealing with a whole other scale of power.
Although it also reveals a very essential factor to this dynamic that gets convoluted - the presence of tech. Martial power can be amplified through the application of technology. Its not the same as magic (though it might functionally be the same a la Thor) but inbetween "normal" and "magic" is X
For most folks X is an event or an alteration - spider bites, gamma rays, super injections.
For others its high int scores and great crafting.
PF seems to want to offer the physical achievements of someone like BW or Hawkeye without the tools to make Iron Man (or even the modest alterations to someone like Hawkeye's gear like a rotating quiver) without the presence of someone like Dr. Strange. And BW and Hawkeye have to expend way more resources to be as good as they are. Something is missing?
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PHysical abilities are overpriced in PF and mental abilities are underpriced.
If you use Marvel Thor, whose base Str lifting is about 100 Tons, that's Str 65 or so.
Since the PF scale is x4 per ten points, someone like Spiderman, who can lift and throw a car a short distance with a 15 ton rating, is about Str 52 or so.
Reasonably, the max most melees can hope for at the end of a career is the 32-33 range, which is about a ton.
maximum human standard str for weightlifters (you know, those guys with base 18's, who picked the +2, and then spend their whole lives training strength), is 22-23.
Human mental stats, on the other hand, max out to about 26 because of AGE.
We can basically assume that 22-23 is the 'normal' human maximum (world record level), with +3 to mentals tacked on for age and experience.
36 is a HUGE intelligence modifier. +13 to INt mods means with one Rank you are probably better then someone who trained their life in a discipline. Add a few levels and feats on there, and yeah, I could totally believe Tony Stark and Reed Richards and Lex Luthor are in the 36-40 Intelligence range of mad scientists. That level of intellectual ability just boggles the mind. Reed Richards saying to Hank Pym, "Hank, you're the best biophysicist on the planet. It would take me at least a week of uninterrupted study to equal you." Doesn't that just say something to you?
But they are dwarfed by the physical abilities of those they associate with, score wise. What Paizo considers 'max physical stats' doesn't even measure up to Ultimate Captain America, and is only marginally past 'classic' Captain America. Captain America can see bullets. He basically doesn't get tired. He can beat Tony Stark at chess and strategy games without a problem.
Physical stat heroes are marginalized by PF game design. That's all there is to it. The very, very weakest of superhuman comics hereoes are stronger then the strongest Paizo heroes, and likely faster, tougher, more coordinated. And this is VERY unequal for people who put power into themselves, instead of the toys around them.
Technically speaking, Thor isn't that high a level. He's an Asgard with a Super Stat Template. Cap, BW and pointedly Mantis can all defeat him with pure martial skills. Hercules is better at grappling and fisticuffs, Thor's power is, quite literally, his stats and his hammer.
Same with Superman. Superman is maybe level 4, 5 is stretching it. He's got the Kryptonian Under a Yellow Sun racial template. His stats are godly. Comparing him to someone who is legitimately high level, like Batman, is a non-starter (Bats being in the 6-9th level range or so, depending on Author).
==Aelryinth
Reading back on what I wrote I was speaking to what I thought would be right not what is and I wanted to clarify that.
I think it is the case that right now BW and Hawkeye (The Punisher?) are what PF imagines as level 20 characters and in some cases that is only with external aid of magic yet at the same time you have someone pulling a Kang and bouncing throughout time, pulling heroes from other realms and shooting someone with "laser beams"...your level X wizard.
I said this in another thread like this long ago but I think the biggest boon to the "modern" wizard is that now they don't have to expend anything to get their power. In older systems items cost literal blood sweat and tears thus hampering progress of other abilities. Magic had a price.
Character progresses on separate tracks to level. Now the math on that is funky and it makes things complicated but it used to be common that the fighter was higher level than many others (save the rogue) and that helped offset the disparity. If a fighter reached level 20 twice as fast as a wizard then would that alleviate some of the feelings of being less relevant? Probably not and its not necessarily the best solution but I certainly wonder...
Okay, so say feats like this existed, specifically in the case of throwing;
Mighty Throwing
Prerequisites: BAB+1, Str 15, Stamina Pool
Benefit: You may spend up to your BAB of stamina to increase the range increment of thrown weapons by five feet for each five stamina you spent. When doing this you may use your strength modifier in place of your dexterity modifier for attack rolls made with thrown weapons.
Penetrating Shot
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Str 17, Mighty Throwing, Stamina Pool
Benefit: If you successfully damage a creature using a thrown weapon you may damage more creatures behind it. You may make another attack against another creature in range, You may repeat this process until you miss. Each creature must be in a straight line leading away from you.
Giant’s Hurling
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Str 19, Mighty Throwing, Throw Anything, Stamina Pool
Benefit: By spending 6 stamina you may use objects of up to your light load as thrown weapons. Throwing this way takes a standard action. Objects thrown this way have a weapon damage equal to 2d6 plus another 2d6 for each size category above small. This damage is dealt to the object and the target. If you miss only the object takes damage. You can only throw unattended objects. Creatures can only be thrown as part of a standard action to maintain a grapple.(You are both no longer considered grappled after this.)
Would that be considered too magical for approching 20 str?
Penetrating Shot is pretty much a wtf? non-magical ability. A halfway normal person can't just throw a knife through someone, nevermind inflicting full damage on the next guy, and the next guy, etc. Making thrown weapons into something like an AoE Line attack is an interesting idea, but not at BAB +6.
The other two feats seem to be limited in terms of usefulness, and I couldn't see Giants' Hurling coming in handy often enough to actually want to take it.
Making thrown weapons relevant is tricky. They either need to be a sort of standard opening attack, as they were in real life (think Roman Legion with the pilum), or they need to actually do enough damage and be somehow useful enough to justify not just whipping out a bow or closing with a sword and thwacking your enemies from up close.
The first function (standard opening attack) can be solved by giving out Quick Draw as a free feat for martials. This way, having a thrown weapon on hand is quite useful. You hit a surprise round (or a non-surprise round in which you close to just outside of the enemy's movement range), let fly with your whatever, and then draw your melee weapon as a free action. It achieves a sort of historical feel for thrown weapons without making them all that useful except as an opener. This is my preferred method.
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Magic Denialist StuffIt feels a bit odd to be on the opposite side of this discussion when we have agreed on so much elsewhere Secret Fire, but everybody has different views and perspectives so really this was bound to happen sooner or later.
The first question I must ask you, is
We don't actually disagree, kyrt. Like you, I see leveling in D&D/PF as a slow process of evolution into a "higher form". For magic users, this manifests as greater skill and power in the use of magic, and for martials, it manifests as greater "martial badassery".
Sure thing...but this "badassery" is not normal. You mention Thor as a model for a high level martial, and while I might not go that far (I'm happy with Achilles), I would point out that Thor is a god, full stop, and gods are magical. One way or another, you can't get around the fact that high level martials are either magical creatures or they are, as you said, dust.
Once we admit that they are explicitly magical creatures then giving them explicitly magical abilities (and I don't mean throwing hadoukens around) becomes a lot easier to justify, and the hideous zombie of martial realism can finally be put down.
With no magic at all, a Monk has so perfected their body that they can literally never get sick - even to the point of figuratively punching magical diseases in the face, gain spell resistance through sheer willpower, speak any tongue - again without a shred of magic, and STOP AGING.
Humans can do impossible extraordinary things with the right mental and physical state, they don't need magic or even supernatural abilities. Irori literally ascended to godhood through nothing except pure physical and mental harmony/perfection. Monks get a capstone that turns their subtype into outsider but fighters do not.
High level martials are not explicitly magical, nor do they need to be. Human history is littered with legends who were not magical but accomplished super human feats.
Penetrating Shot is pretty much a wtf? non-magical ability. A halfway normal person can't just throw a knife through someone, nevermind inflicting full damage on the next guy, and the next guy, etc. Making thrown weapons into something like an AoE Line attack is an interesting idea, but not at BAB +6.
The other two feats seem to be quite limited in terms of usefulness. Increasing the range increment by 5' for five stamina spent is an awful cost for what you get, and I couldn't see Giants' Hurling coming in handy often enough to actually want to take it.
Would Penetrating Shot be more believable if the prerequisite was 20 Str and BAB + 11?
Don't forget that the 5 stamina gives STR for attack as well. but I can see it going for 1 stamina for each 5 ft.
Would Penetrating Shot be more believable if the prerequisite was 20 Str and BAB + 11?
Let's go full on realism! GURPS like - if piercing ranged attack deals more damage than X it can carry all damage over X to next target.
Size Damage
Colossal 160
Gargantuan 80
Huge 40
Large 30
Medium 20
Small 15
Tiny 10
Diminutive 5
Fine 2
Magic Denialist StuffIt feels a bit odd to be on the opposite side of this discussion when we have agreed on so much elsewhere Secret Fire, but everybody has different views and perspectives so really this was bound to happen sooner or later.
The first question I must ask you, is
We don't actually disagree, kyrt. Like you, I see leveling in D&D/PF as a slow process of evolution into a "higher form". For magic users, this manifests as greater skill and power in the use of magic, and for martials, it manifests as greater "martial badassery".
Sure thing...but this "badassery" is not normal. You mention Thor as a model for a high level martial, and while I might not go that far (I'm happy with Achilles), I would point out that Thor is a god, full stop, and gods are magical. One way or another, you can't get around the fact that high level martials are either magical creatures or they are, as you said, dust.
Once we admit that they are explicitly magical creatures then giving them explicitly magical abilities (and I don't mean throwing hadoukens around) becomes a lot easier to justify, and the hideous zombie of martial realism can finally be put down.
With no magic at all, a Monk has so perfected their body that they can literally never get sick - even to the point of figuratively punching magical diseases in the face, gain spell resistance through sheer willpower, speak any tongue - again without a shred of magic, and STOP AGING.
Humans can do impossible extraordinary things with the right mental and physical state, they don't need magic or even supernatural abilities. Irori literally ascended to godhood through nothing except pure physical and mental harmony/perfection. Monks get a capstone that turns their subtype into outsider but fighters do not.
Why are you quoting Pathfinder rules and "Golarion mythology" to me? This is circular reasoning (the rules justify themselves?!), and not in any way germane to the conversation.
High level martials are not explicitly magical, nor do they need to be. Human history is littered with legends who were not magical but accomplished super human feats.
Who are these legends of myth who accomplished superhuman feats without magic, magical items, a magical lineage, or divine intervention?
Do legends matter in this conversation? At Str 23 you are literally superhuman in strength according to world record weightlifting compared to carrying capacity and only the fighter, cavalier, and swashbuckler have zero in class capability of doing something supernatural or magical.
If we're talking about tropes in general I agree that super strength in legend is often accompanied by some kind of magic thing but the trope still exists. Just google up Charles Atlas Super Powers for a comprehensive list.
Do legends matter in this conversation?
Of course they do. Without some sort of underlying explanation as to what is going on and why, you may as well be playing a board game. Of course, you can deviate from existing mythology all you like, but it's an impoverished game world in which characters just do things because the rules say they can without any sort of rhyme or reason to it. I cite legend and myth because these stories always offer some sort of accounting for superhuman abilities. Arthur had a magical supersword. Perseus was the son of Zeus. Gilgamesh was a demigod. Odysseus had Athena on his side. Sigfried had his father's magic sword, and gave himself magical powers by eating a dragon's heart (f&*$ing badass).
What's important here is that the mechanics don't just stand alone as an arbitrary system - all sound and fury, signifying nothing.
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It's a game.
Not a simulator.
It's on the players and the table to decide where things come from.
Up to and including no reason.
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As far as I'm concerned, non-magical people can do superhuman (by our standards) stuff specifically because it ISN'T superhuman in Pathfinder. People are capable of getting that stronger the same way I can get stronger, their ceiling is just higher. Physics works differently in PF, period. End of story.
If you want to make your own explanation (magic, the gods, titanic amounts of amphetamines, etc.), awesome, more power to you. But it's not necessary to be codified.
That said, I never understood why some people are so adamant about keeping the martials "mundane," as if them having some form of magic would suddenly ruin everything...
Why are you quoting Pathfinder rules and "Golarion mythology" to me? This is circular reasoning (the rules justify themselves?!), and not in any way germane to the conversation.
How is that circular reasoning? The Pathfinder setting states humans can became super human without magic - therefor it is possible. If this is 'unwarrented' or 'circular reasoning' then all fiction is an exercise in pointlessness. Granted, Paizo could certainly have done a lot better job separating the difference between what should count as Extraordinary and what shouldn't (one of their devs wrote an article complaining about Ex and Su being a thing) but that's not the point. The point is that any class should be able to accomplish impressive feats without magical aid. Hell, look at a lot of the monsters you fight, many of them do things just as exotic and unnatural without magical aid.
Who are these legends of myth who accomplished superhuman feats without magic, magical items, a magical lineage, or divine intervention?
Beowulf, Ajax, maybe Hector, I certainly wouldn't count magic weapons against what a martial would be expected to use - so Seigfried too.
Do legends matter in this conversation?Of course they do. Without some sort of underlying explanation as to what is going on and why, you may as well be playing a board game. Of course, you can deviate from existing mythology all you like, but it's an impoverished game world in which characters just do things because the rules say they can without any sort of rhyme or reason to it. I cite legend and myth because these stories always offer some sort of accounting for superhuman abilities. Arthur had a magical supersword. Perseus was the son of Zeus. Gilgamesh was a demigod. Odysseus had Athena on his side. Sigfried had his father's magic sword, and gave himself magical powers by eating a dragon's heart (f!*@ing badass).
What's important here is that the mechanics don't just stand alone as an arbitrary system - all sound and fury, signifying nothing.
What I mean is that old legends isn't the only source of explanations for abilities like that or at the very least leave them to be ambiguous enough to let you figure that out for yourself. In some cases people can shoot laser beams out of their hands simply because they trained really really hard so would it be so far-fetched if Valeros, who is depicted as using anvils on chains to exercise, could wield bastard swords as light weapons if he does that all day and has like 25 Str?
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It's a game.
Not a simulator.
It's on the players and the table to decide where things come from.
Up to and including no reason.
Appealing to "gamism" does not necessarily obviate the simulationist aspects of an RPG. It's a game world, and as a world it functions according to internal logic and consistency...or at least, it's a lot more immersive (and fun) when it does.
In that sense, it'd be nice if the game did a little more of the heavy lifting in that regard.
The world is entirely how you, the player, defines it.
It has never pretended to do otherwise.
The setting, the world, are all suggestions to inspire and give flavor to work from as a base. No more. No less.
It's like, a gun enthusiast getting up set because the action hero shot 10 shots before reloading when his gun holds 9 at best. Or a martial arts expert getting annoyed because you can't "death touch" a person by caressing them softly on their chest.
Those people who allow their experiences to be ruined by thsoe details are missing the point.
It's for fun. Not science.
Immersiveness isn't broken by a lack of explanation and information It's broken by focusing on the ammo in the protagonists gun rather than the tension of the story.
No one should be focusing on why a noble knight's shield doesn't melt before stone melting dragon fire. They should focus on the fact that there's a freaking armored knight going toe to toe with a dragon. Everything else is superfluous to bother about and cynical to whinge over.
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I wonder if part of the problem is that because magic is so inherently detailed in what it can and cannot accomplishall the other sources of abilities seem less defined therefore less mechanically satisfying?
Magic in Pathfinder has a lot of moving parts. There is a lot to manipulate and there are many variables to consider in how it is applied, created and accounted for. That gives it more mechanical weight but it seems like that weight also reflects then on how much more time and effort is spent enhancing and fiddling with it from a design perspective.
I guess I am circling around the notion that to give martials better things they need ways to exercise mechanical flexibility and creativity on par with the legwork done for casters already.
Secondary to that (and more important to some over others) is potentially explaining the source of said mechanical sophistication. I agree with Tark that it might be best defined within the narrative of the group but as PF often harkens to Golarion a lack of any sort of "reason" makes the disparity between martial accomplishment and caster ability more glaring in my eyes. (In that setting)
What I mean is that old legends isn't the only source of explanations for abilities like that or at the very least leave them to be ambiguous enough to let you figure that out for yourself. In some cases people can shoot laser beams out of their hands simply because they trained really really hard so would it be so far-fetched if Valeros, who is depicted as using anvils on chains to exercise, could wield bastard swords as light weapons if he does that all day and has like 25 Str?
...how? How does one train and get to shoot laser beams? Is it focusing ki or just .. ow, no, now my brain hurts.
No problem with the Valeros part, however.
The whole train till you shoot laser beams reminds me of this quote in From Dusk Till Dawn:
Did they look like psychos? Is that what they looked like? They were vampires. Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits them, I don't give a %#%^ how crazy they are!
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The world is entirely how you, the player, defines it.At least some of the players are defining it as "the game rules seem to be indicating that the world has its own definition for how things work, but doesn't actually come out and tell us what it is," and they wish that it would.
It has never pretended to do otherwise.And that's the problem. The game world, as suggested by the Pathfinder rules, has never even pretended to tell us how unnatural-yet-non-magical powers actually work.
That leaves a blank space, and while we could fill that blank space in by ourselves, that's something we could do anyway. The game not bothering to do so is not an instance of "giving us more freedom." Consider:
Game A does not explain how its world functions. Players who care about that aspect of the game world now have to do that work on their own.
Game B does explain how its world functions. If the players like that explanation, then there's no more work left to be done in this regard. If they don't like that explanation, then they can toss it out and make a new one on their own.
Even if game B does not give an explanation that the players care for, the results will be no worse than the situation that game A is already mandating. Since RPGs are, by their very nature, malleable, failing to provide for an aspect of the game world does not create any more freedom for the players than defining that aspect would. It just necessitates more work on their part, which seems a bit counterproductive when you're the one paying for the game.
The setting, the world, are all suggestions to inspire and give flavor to work from as a base. No more. No less.Quite a few posters in this thread have said that the suggestions are nebulous and confusing, rather than inspiring. To them, more should be done.
It's like, a gun enthusiast getting up set because the action hero shot 10 shots before reloading when his gun holds 9 at best. Or a...
My argument more accurately boils down to the fact that all the fluff in the world can't fix bad mechanics. Demanding fluff explanations for good ones is a waste of time until we get them fixed.
Let's get that in order first, then we can fuss over the details as to whether a barbarian getting super mad is magical or not.
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I actually really like the explanation "just that good" for the crazy stuff that some fictional characters have
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I actually really like the explanation "just that good" for the crazy stuff that some fictional characters have
It's kind of like Garet Jax in "Wishsong of Shannara". He's a weaponsmaster with absolutely no magical talent, yet he kills both a kraken and a demon called a jachyra, both creatures that should have been impossible to defeat without magic. The only explanation ever given for how he accomplishes these feats is basically "He's just that good", and that pretty much works for me.
The real logical inconsistencies for me are things like guys who can bench press Toyotas and wrestle dinosaurs but still can't jump more than 6 feet straight up without magical assistance.
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I actually really like the explanation "just that good" for the crazy stuff that some fictional characters haveIt's kind of like Garet Jax in "Wishsong of Shannara". He's a weaponsmaster with absolutely no magical talent, yet he kills both a kraken and a demon called a jachyra, both creatures that should have been impossible to defeat without magic. The only explanation ever given for how he accomplishes these feats is basically "He's just that good", and that pretty much works for me.
The real logical inconsistencies for me are things like guys who can bench press Toyotas and wrestle dinosaurs but still can't jump more than 6 feet straight up without magical assistance.
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It's 'cause they're white.I actually really like the explanation "just that good" for the crazy stuff that some fictional characters haveIt's kind of like Garet Jax in "Wishsong of Shannara". He's a weaponsmaster with absolutely no magical talent, yet he kills both a kraken and a demon called a jachyra, both creatures that should have been impossible to defeat without magic. The only explanation ever given for how he accomplishes these feats is basically "He's just that good", and that pretty much works for me.
The real logical inconsistencies for me are things like guys who can bench press Toyotas and wrestle dinosaurs but still can't jump more than 6 feet straight up without magical assistance.
So if I use a negative color character sheet and silver ink pens, my character will jump good.
So if I use a negative color character sheet and silver ink pens, my character will jump good.It's 'cause they're white.I actually really like the explanation "just that good" for the crazy stuff that some fictional characters haveIt's kind of like Garet Jax in "Wishsong of Shannara". He's a weaponsmaster with absolutely no magical talent, yet he kills both a kraken and a demon called a jachyra, both creatures that should have been impossible to defeat without magic. The only explanation ever given for how he accomplishes these feats is basically "He's just that good", and that pretty much works for me.
The real logical inconsistencies for me are things like guys who can bench press Toyotas and wrestle dinosaurs but still can't jump more than 6 feet straight up without magical assistance.
Why does the vine not break the second time? Oh wait, it does...but Jack jump good.
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Why does the vine not break the second time? Oh wait, it does...but Jack jump good.So if I use a negative color character sheet and silver ink pens, my character will jump good.It's 'cause they're white.I actually really like the explanation "just that good" for the crazy stuff that some fictional characters haveIt's kind of like Garet Jax in "Wishsong of Shannara". He's a weaponsmaster with absolutely no magical talent, yet he kills both a kraken and a demon called a jachyra, both creatures that should have been impossible to defeat without magic. The only explanation ever given for how he accomplishes these feats is basically "He's just that good", and that pretty much works for me.
The real logical inconsistencies for me are things like guys who can bench press Toyotas and wrestle dinosaurs but still can't jump more than 6 feet straight up without magical assistance.
Exactly, he just jump good. That's all there is to it :)
I actually really like the explanation "just that good" for the crazy stuff that some fictional characters have
Well good for you.
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I presume you feel otherwise Envall?I actually really like the explanation "just that good" for the crazy stuff that some fictional characters haveWell good for you.
Envall doesn't need to feel otherwise. He doesn't need to feel anything at all. He is above feeling, because he's just that good.
"Feeling otherwise" is for lowly mortals like TOZ.
To take a simple example from a novel I'm currently reading, Shen Yin Wang Zuo- wherein there are ten 'Steps' of power each of which representing an increase of roughly two D&D levels, our protagonist Knight aka Paladin of the 5th Step [aka level 9, he's only just broken into the 5th step so he wouldn't be level 10] during a tournament leaps 30 meters in the air on his physical prowess alone.
It is a misunderstanding of eastern religion/culture to assert that the tales of eastern heroes involve "non magical ascension". Eastern mythology is almost always coming from an animist base, in which all people, and indeed all things, are inherently infused with magic, spirits, energy. The world is not held to be less magical than that of western myth, but more so. Martial ascension in this context is an awakening and perfection of latent magical abilities which had always been present.
"He's just that good" is a late-20th century fabrication.
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edit: what superhuman feats do Hector and Ajax actually accomplish? Also, the document you reference is in error about the heritage of Achilles. Peleus was not a mortal. Diomedes wore armor crafted by Hephaestus, and received large amounts of divine intervention from Athena, who also aided Odysseus on many occasions. Greek myth is not a source for non-magical martial superpowers.
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To take a simple example from a novel I'm currently reading, Shen Yin Wang Zuo- wherein there are ten 'Steps' of power each of which representing an increase of roughly two D&D levels, our protagonist Knight aka Paladin of the 5th Step [aka level 9, he's only just broken into the 5th step so he wouldn't be level 10] during a tournament leaps 30 meters in the air on his physical prowess alone.It is a misunderstanding of eastern religion/culture to assert that the tales of eastern heroes involve "non magical ascension". Eastern mythology is almost always coming from an animist base, in which all people, and indeed all things, are inherently infused with magic, spirits, energy. The world is not held to be less magical than that of western myth, but more so. Martial ascension in this context is an awakening and perfection of latent magical abilities which had always been present.
"He's just that good" is a late-20th century fabrication.
Doesn't make it any less awesome. To assume that it's bad because it's a "20th century Fabrication" is definitely some sort of fallacy.
For some reason the idea that someone, through continuous effort, is able to transcend human limits by their own power is strangely uplifting. I personally very much like the idea that someone can become amazing without any supernatural origins or power base.
