What is a strength check?

[Michael Grate]

I know this seems obvious but in my campaign we've never used it. Recently I've been looking at things like a net which is a basic weapon anyone can obtain or a bear trap which is a CR 1 trap. They have the ability to use a strength check to escape (DC 25 and 26 respectively).

So I'm assuming rolling a D20 is involved, but what is added? Would it be the modifier or the raw score? If it's the modifier then that seems like a little much because even a character with 30 strength would have to roll a 15 to escape a net. And the Grim Reaper would have some serious issues with a few Bear traps with Ghost touch. But other checks use the modifier plus a skill bonus.

So would the full score be used because it's a pure strength check so that is the skill bonus (sort of like putting ranks in strength) or is it the modifier that's added to the D20?

Also, I'm assuming the answer applies to all raw ability score checks, correct?

[Bill Dunn]

You use the modifier. The very end of page 15 of the Core Rulebook (continuing to page 16) describes this.

And that does apply to all ability checks.

[Michael Grate]

Bill Dunn wrote:

You use the modifier. The very end of page 15 of the Core Rulebook (continuing to page 16) describes this.

And that does apply to all ability checks.

Thank you. It seems like a fairly high DC then for those items but I guess it is what it is.

[jbadams]

Michael Grate wrote:

It seems like a fairly high DC then for those items but I guess it is what it is.

That's correct, the DC to accomplish this sort of task via a strength check will normally be difficult but not impossible (depending of course on the character).

Note that by making a strength check you're attempting to do these things by brute strength rather than taking a more intelligent approach; in most cases there will be lower DCs presented for a related skill check such as Escape Artist, and for a correctly trained character these are much more achievable. Allowing a strength check presents an option for characters that aren't so well suited to the task.

[Michael Grate]

jbadams wrote:

Michael Grate wrote:

It seems like a fairly high DC then for those items but I guess it is what it is.

That's correct, the DC to accomplish this sort of task via a strength check will normally be difficult but not impossible (depending of course on the character).

Note that by making a strength check you're attempting to do these things by brute strength rather than taking a more intelligent approach; in most cases there will be lower DCs presented for a related skill check such as Escape Artist, and for a correctly trained character these are much more achievable. Allowing a strength check presents an option for characters that aren't so well suited to the task.

That makes sense. I guess it's just weird to me that a character who could normally lift up to 1600 lbs (3200 if they're large) only has a 25% chance of breaking out of a medium sized net and a 20% chance to open a CR 1 trap. Or a 5% chance for the reaper (strength of 24) assuming the right enhancements were put on either. I guess in both cases they could just attack the item directly but still...

[Ciaran Barnes]

Use the maximum lift weight when time and risk are not factors. The die roll is for when you're rushed.

Ability checks are still present in the system, although their prevalence diminishes with the passing years.

[chbgraphicarts]

Michael Grate wrote:

That makes sense. I guess it's just weird to me that a character who could normally lift up to 1600 lbs (3200 if they're large) only has a 25% chance of breaking out of a medium sized net

Radically different muscle groups.

Also, PHYSICS!!!

When you lift something above your head, you're using Momentum, which is Force times Time.

Force, in turn, is Mass times Velocity.

The Mass is the overall Mass of all muscles used, while Velocity is the speed at which you can expand your muscles from relaxed to flexed.

The longer you can produce continuous Force, the greater your Momentum. When you are unconstricted, you have a much greater range of freedom of movement, thus you can radically increase the number of muscles used and so increase the overall Mass to increase the total amount of Force; simultaneously, you lengthen the amount of Time this Force is applied, thus increasing your Momentum substantially, and so you're able to lift significant amounts of weight overhead.

When you are constricted, however, the Time of your Force is next-to-none, and since your Mass is a constant, the Velocity must be explosive. This is EXTREMELY hard to do, however, as you are limited by a number of biological factors, including overall muscle size and strength of your muscle fibers, amount of lactic acid, etc.

Breaking bonds, then, is unbelievably difficult, because it requires you to flex a very large number of muscles in your body all at once, all in an explosion of force, with a very, very short amount of time with no real ability to build up momentum.

It's for this reason why men who're able to pull plains in real life can't easily burst through ropes wrapped tightly around them.

Then you have the issue of tearing a rope Net. Rope, when not taut, is a very flexible material, therefore it can absorb an incredible amount of Force and Momentum before snaps despite its relatively low mass; when you form it into a net, you are increasing the total area of material that can absorb this energy and disperse it throughout, while at the same time constricting your movement and limiting the number of muscles you are able to use, decreasing the Mass you are able to apply, thus decreasing the Momentum.

A Barred Door, also a CR25, however, is a very rigid material, and will not disperse the energy nearly as well - the wood, which cannot flex, will crack and break despite its large mass.

Also, since you are able to use more muscles and apply more energy over a larger area, you are able to apply more Thrust to your action (Thrust = Momentum x Area), and overall expend less effort doing so; tearing a Rope, on the other hand, is applying Momentum over a very, very small Area, thus meaning you need to expend more Momentum, and thus Effort, in order to gain the same amount of overall Thrust.

In other words, you'll probably actually be much more tired when trying to tear a net apart than breaking a door down, according to real-world physics.

So, in that regard, there is a bit of sense as to why the amount of "Effort" (i.e. CR), that needs to be expended by a character is relatively equal.

[chbgraphicarts]

By the way, I use this equation for figuring out the Strength Checks necessary when producing an effect:

Check = (Minimum Modifier Value needed to perform the action, rounded up) +20

So Push/Drag 1500 Pounds is a DC24 Strength check. Meanwhile Lifting 300 Pounds also requires DC24 Strength check.

This is because out of combat you can always Take 20 and receive these values. Meanwhile, in the midst of Combat or when you can't focus, you are extremely unlikely to be able to perform these difficult tasks.

[Bob Bob Bob]

There's a reason it gives HP as well as a strength check DC to break. It's much, much easier to just attack the net. The strength check is only if you have no other way to harm the net (don't have a slashing weapon?), you need to do something to it hard enough to break it. Presumably you're just grabbing it and pulling in opposite directions. It's also fairly well in line with the DC to break rope, which is 23.

Basically, break DCs exist to allow characters who are "strong enough" to instantly destroy things (barbarians, always barbarians). For the most part, they're ridiculously hard to do, even for monsters. Even the Tarrasque can't break a 3 foot thick hewn stone wall. You need at least 30 Str to break a masonry wall.

As for effectiveness... well, nets are actually pretty brutal. If they can't attack the net it's a full-round action to escape, you can just keep whipping nets at a single opponent until they spend every turn trying to get out or just give up and stay entangled.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The DC represents the chance to break free while in combat in a single round. You can keep trying until you succeed. While you normally can’t take 20 on an ability check, I would allow this. Since taking twenty is basically a way to speed up the game instead of making the character actually keep rolling until they get a twenty it amounts to the same thing.

So that means that any character with a STR score of 20 will eventually get out of a net. The trap requires a STR score of 22.

[Sauce987654321]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The DC represents the chance to break free while in combat in a single round. You can keep trying until you succeed. While you normally can’t take 20 on an ability check, I would allow this. Since taking twenty is basically a way to speed up the game instead of making the character actually keep rolling until they get a twenty it amounts to the same thing.

So that means that any character with a STR score of 20 will eventually get out of a net. The trap requires a STR score of 22.

yes you can take 20s on an ability check.

[Joesi]

One final thing to realize is that things like nets and bear traps don't disable a target. They just give a penalty, meaning a netted reaper is still 90% as dangerous as a non-netted one.

Some people would probably be annoyed at me breaking RAW so blatantly, but in my opinion it makes no sense whatsoever for a net or bear trap to limit the movement of a creature that flies without wings. I'd accordingly rule that such a creature wouldn't lose any movement to being netted or being in a bear trap.