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Not surprised by the number of Scout and Enforcer builds.
The bomber build looks interesting but no I don't believe the splash damage gets sneak attack. I also question whether or not it can be applied to bombs at all.
Has anyone managed a decent ranged build?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/warning-shot-combat
Human Rogue (Swashbuckler, Thug)
14/16/14/10/10/14 (with gear, at level 12: 14/24/14/10/12/16)
1: Point-Blank Shot
1b: Precise Shot
2t: Weapon Focus
3: Warning Shot
4t: Surprise Attack
5: Dazzling Display
6t: Combat Trick : Rapid shot
7: -
8t: Combat Trick (Swashbuckler): Shatter Defenses
9: -
10t -
11 -
12t -
Sneaky +3 Composite Longbow (+2 Str)
Another Intimidate build. 3 spare feats and 2 talents. First round you use Dazzling Display. Next rounds you just Full attack everybody/everything. Warning shot is not needed unless you still want to full attack this round. With haste it could be potentially devastating.
9/3 (bab) + 7 (dex) + 3 (enhancements) + 1 (Point blank shot) + 1 (haste) - 2 (rapid shot) = +19/+19/+19/+14 (3 possibility of sneak attacks w/ warning shot.)
1d10 + 2 (str) + 3 (enhancements) + 1 (Point blank shot) = 1d10+6+6d6 each times.
A TWF thrown weapon build could be viable too I guess, but I know nothing about these kind of builds.
^How do you get d8s on Sneak Attack? Only way I know of is Knife Master, but that only works with daggers, Starknives, and similar weapons. I do not see any mention of alteration of Sneak Attack die size in Skulking Slayer.
Bold Strike (Ex)
At 3rd level, when a skulking slayer charges and makes a sneak attack with a two-handed weapon, she rolls d8s instead of d6s for her sneak attack damage.
The unchained rogue makes the carnivalist rogue slightly better, but other relatively recent changes - the mauler familiar archetype and dirty trick tactics' feat for additional sneak attack - have at least as much effect. Beware the wrath of my mighty housecat!
The best Ranged Rogue I've built was a Firearms based one exploiting Gun Twirling.
I started level 8 though.
Swashbuckler archetype
Human
S10 D16+2 C14 I8 W15 CH10
LV1. Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot
LV2. Firearm Training
LV3. Gunsmithing
LV4. Weapon Training
LV5. Quick Draw
LV6. Grit (Gun Twirling), Combat Trick (Dazzling Display)
LV7. Rapid Reload
LV8. Combat Trick (Two-Weapon Fighting)
LV9. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
LV10. Feat (Extra Grit)
LV11. Improved Critical
LV12. Slippery Mind, Hunter's Surprise
Preferably use Pistol Daggers to switch hit better.
The Dirty Tactics toolbox includes a new and super easy method for acquiring a flying familiar for worshipers of calistria.
Assuming it can take the mauler archetype you've got yourself an always on and flying flanky friend for the cost of one feat. Also it grants a +4 bonus to initiative, that ought to be solid...
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Not surprised by the number of Scout and Enforcer builds.
The bomber build looks interesting but no I don't believe the splash damage gets sneak attack. I also question whether or not it can be applied to bombs at all.
Has anyone managed a decent ranged build?
As to Bombs, I've never seen them referred to as anything other than a Splash weapon so I'd be curious what causes you to question it? Honestly curious, perhaps I've missed something?
As to the Splash Damage w/SA. Well I've always gone on the following lines:
Throw Splash Weapon:
"A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. If the target is Large or larger, you choose one of its squares and the splash damage affects creatures within 5 feet of that square. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature)."
Precise Splash Weapons (Ex):
"At 4th level, an underground chemist can deal sneak attack damage with splash weapons."
But I can see why there may be disagreements.
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In any case, a decent ranged build can be built around sniping now with the Dirty Tactics Toolbox:
I) Expert Sniper (Feat), requires 3 ranks in Stealth and reduces the negative modifier to sniping by 10 so it stacks with Stealthy Sniper (Rogue Advanced Talent), which sets the negative modifier to stealth at -10. It also stacks with Unchained Stealth via Rogues Edge so by level 5 you can happily Snipe every round with no negatives.
II) Master Sniper (Feat), requires 6 ranks in Stealth, Expert Sniper and Rapid Shot, let's you fire two shots at full BaB-2 as a full-round action before stealthing again. Since it's a Combat Feat you could always grab Expert Sniper and Rapid Shot from level 1-5, then at level 6 go for the Combat Trick and so, by level 6, you'll be firing a pair of SA Arrows at full BaB-2 for no penalty.
It's not the end to a build but those two feats, combined with Rogues Edge into Stealth, give you a good basis for a Sniping Ranged UnRogue.
As an aside, Expert Sniper/Rogues Edge (Stealth) with Stealthy Sniper into Master Sniper (Rogue Advanced Talent) will effectively give you a Full-Attack, followed by Stealth, for no penalty at all at level 11 at the earliest.
To that end, here's a small sample build:
Swashbuckler UnRogue 1-6
1: Point Blank Shot, Martial Training: Longbow, Feat
2: RT: Combat Trick (Deadly Aim)
3: Expert Sniper
4: RT: Snipers Eye
5: Rogues Edge (Free), Rapid Shot
6: RT: Combat Trick (Master Sniper)
As you can see, good few free feats and talents for you to mess around with, this is just a half-hours theory crafting.
Edit:/ Just noticed the UnRogue can't grab the Master Sniper Talent, so adjusted the above build to only take advantage of the new Dirty Tactics Feats.
-snip-
For a build that uses enforcer or cornugon smash, check out "Mask of the Grinning Skull." It's a scaling magic item, so ymmv, but it increases the shaken penalty to -4 when dealing with the intimidating creature (the PC).
Not particularly rogue related, but definitely makes things a little more fun.
Where is everyone getting their information that Unchained Rogues cannot use non-Unchained rogue talents? I do not recall reading that anywhere in the Unchained book. Nor is that said anywhere in Unchained FAQ, nor in the Additional Resources for PFS.
In the PFS unchained blog. Anything that is not in the new list or in the sidebar is not allowed for the unchained rogue and barb. And then the statement that unchained can't use any talents/rage powers unless it says it's for unchained.
So the first is for PFS only. The second statement you made; where is that located exactly? I don't have access to my Unchained book right this moment, so if that's in there I would like to find it.
If that restriction is to PFS only, then let's make that clear in our builds here. Just a suggestion.
Thing is, if I recall correctly, PFS said that all the Unchained stuff they implemented were the rules and not PFS changes.
Some links to make things easier:
* "PFS Additional Resouces" only says the classes are legal, with no further commentary.
* "Unchained FAQ" which is still quite sparse, has nothing to say on the subject.
* The actual Unchained book itself has clarifying language that's pretty unambiguous, so one should have the book handy.
The rogue talents in this chapter include replacements for all of those in the Core Rulebook, along with selected revised rogue talents from other sources. The following rogue talents can be used without modification.
Rogue Talents: Assault leader , black market connections , canny observer , cunning trigger , deft palm , distracting attack *, fast getaway , firearm training , getaway artist , grit , iron guts , ninja trick , positioning attack , quick disguise , quick trapsmith , rope master , strong impression , strong stroke , survivalist , swift poison , underhanded , wall scramble .Advanced Rogue Talents: Another day , confounding blades *, deadly cocktail , familiar , fast tumble , frugal trapsmith , getaway master , hide in plain sight , hunter’s surprise , knock-out blow , redirect attack , rumormonger , stealthy sniper , unwitting ally , weapon snatcher .
So, no CRB talents, because they're all restated in Unchained.
The vexing dodger archetype is one of the stronger Rogue options.
The vexing dodger archetype is one of the stronger Rogue options.
You forgot to mention stronger "if you're small or smaller".
In fact I want to mess with that one a bit. Reduce Person is soemthing you can get with major magic afterall....
I didn't forget. I chose to let the reader read.
Fox Shape(Kitsune) looks interesting if you do explore Vexing Dodger.
I haven't fleshed out an optimized build for Vexing, but I see the potential if you're allowed to always be flanking what you climb.
There isn't a "small or smaller" prereq to the archetype (that I saw in the SRD link, anyway), .... I was actually considering combining it with Fox Shape.
Fox Shape can be pretty powerful in its own right. I've seen some characters that "accidentally" took it too early (w/o +3 BAB), and the Dex bonus and size modifiers can start to overpower things at early levels.
Bold Strike (Ex)
At 3rd level, when a skulking slayer charges and makes a sneak attack with a two-handed weapon, she rolls d8s instead of d6s for her sneak attack damage.
Dain bramage! How did I miss that after going through the whole thing 2 times? :-P
The vexing dodger archetype is one of the stronger Rogue options.You forgot to mention stronger "if you're small or smaller".
In fact I want to mess with that one a bit. Reduce Person is soemthing you can get with major magic afterall....
It's like Mouser Swashbuckler: Technically you don't have to be Small, but a non-Small Swashbuckler isn't going to be much good (until you can get Reduce Person regularly) except in a campaign with a lot of Large opponents (for instance, Giantslayer -- and the Vexing Dodger Rogue archetype came from the Giant Hunter's Handbook, so this makes sense for it too).
The teeth behind Unchained Rogue is Finesse Training – DEX to damage with finessable weapons. Vexing Dodger synergizes nicely here, mitigating the weapon damage loss due to smaller size. You gain an added benefit of bonuses to AC, stealth and acrobatics. You do lose trapfinding and to trapsense. Vexing Dodger also synergizes with Goblin Foolhardiness, a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls when facing an enemy that’s larger than you are.
These things, in no small way, make unchained Rogue the strongest Vexing Dodger combination.
What I would like to see is, a way for any rogue subtype to effectively deal with: 1) their poor will saves, 2) multiple opponents.
I'm finding it interesting that Dex rogues could prove to be far stronger than Str rogues in terms of combat if purely for no other reason that they still benefit from 1.5 strength.
In contrast though it does mean if you want to go small or smaller that a lot of the advantage from having a larger threatened area essentially disintegrates in favor of bigger numbers.
Your CMB is gonna blow though.
What is bothering me about these builds is that they're making rogues that dps, but they still seem to have the fragility of the old rogue. Anybody got any ideas for better defense? I feel like the finesse training, debilitating injury, and the slow reactions talent abilities make for a viable TWF damage and debuff offense by level 4 if you have somebody that will reliably help you flank.
How are we going to stay alive? I may post a build later.
With Debilitating Injury and Slow Reactions, of course. Also, Twist Away and good investments in CON/WIS.
PSA: The Sneaking Critical Feat is mandatory for high level Rogues
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With Debilitating Injury and Slow Reactions, of course. Also, Twist Away and good investments in CON/WIS.What is bothering me about these builds is that they're making rogues that dps, but they still seem to have the fragility of the old rogue. Anybody got any ideas for better defense? I feel like the finesse training, debilitating injury, and the slow reactions talent abilities make for a viable TWF damage and debuff offense by level 4 if you have somebody that will reliably help you flank.
How are we going to stay alive? I may post a build later.
Escapologist is a great way of breaking out of conditions imposed by a poor will save.
hiiamtom, unless the rule changed, you cant use power attack with finesse training. I think you want piranha strike.
Why can't you use Power Attack with Finesse Training? What rule are you talking about?
As long as you have 13 STR, you can do it. It's pretty neat for Estoc builds.
PSA: The Sneaking Critical Feat is mandatory for high level Rogues
That is the feat that adds a number of Sneak Attack dice to a crit equal to the weapon's crit mod? So a x2 crit weapon adds 2d6 Sneak Attack dice on a critical hit?
On average, that would be adding 7 damage to a critical attack (assuming that the attack is also a Sneak Attack). Knife Master ups that to 9.
Hm... yeah that seems pretty good overall.
hiiamtom, unless the rule changed, you cant use power attack with finesse training. I think you want piranha strike.
The only downside of Power Attack is the Strength 13 requirement. I don't think anything prevents use of it with light or finessable weapons (in 3.5 I think you could not use it with light weapons).
Your CMB is gonna blow though.actually the cmb will be up the roof (surprise maneuvers, elven branch spear, imp dirty, ioun stone, flanking bonuses, etc)
i still have 1-2 kinks to work over, but in most part, it should be solid.
once i'm done, i'll post that over
Do you have a means to add Dex to your CMB instead of Str?
PSA: The Sneaking Critical Feat is mandatory for high level RoguesThat is the feat that adds a number of Sneak Attack dice to a crit equal to the weapon's crit mod? So a x2 crit weapon adds 2d6 Sneak Attack dice on a critical hit?
On average, that would be adding 7 damage to a critical attack (assuming that the attack is also a Sneak Attack). Knife Master ups that to 9.
Is that it? I misread it then. I thought it allowed you to crit your sneak.
Is that it? I misread it then. I thought it allowed you to crit your sneak.PSA: The Sneaking Critical Feat is mandatory for high level RoguesThat is the feat that adds a number of Sneak Attack dice to a crit equal to the weapon's crit mod? So a x2 crit weapon adds 2d6 Sneak Attack dice on a critical hit?
On average, that would be adding 7 damage to a critical attack (assuming that the attack is also a Sneak Attack). Knife Master ups that to 9.
As in multiply your Sneak Attack dice by the crit multi? I don't think it was that good. I could be wrong.
It's better than nothing.
I don't see the point of going rogue with either of those builds. Whatever bonus you are getting through Surprise Maneuvers will only compensate your lower BAB in comparison to a full BAB class. I'd much rather do that build with an Untamed Barbarian who also has access to Savage Dirty Trick.
I don't see the point of going rogue with either of those builds. Whatever bonus you are getting through Surprise Maneuvers will only compensate your lower BAB in comparison to a full BAB class. I'd much rather do that build with an Untamed Barbarian who also has access to Savage Dirty Trick.
Hmm
You'd actually exceed the BAB on some levels.
Like Level 5 when you are likely to get it.
BAB for martial would be 5.
Bab for Rogue would be 3. But you add +3 from surprise maneuver. So a 6.
In the end surprise maneuver nets you a +10 bonus by itself exceeding the full BAB by 5.
1. Neither of you factored in Rage, you made all your calculations as though the full BAB class had no features. You also have several Rage Powers that can boost that further. Plus, there's the Untamed Rager feature that boosts CMB further.
2. For some reason you are assuming Surprise Maneuvers is always on.
3. Finesse is neat when you are stuck with light armor and have meh HP. If you are not, there's really no point to it.
4. 1.5x DEX-to-damage is ultra awesome and the one thing that makes Finesse worth it for Rogues. It still doesn't compensate for the fact that Power Attack is needed to have respectable output.
5. Skills and Trapfinding is a good excuse. But I still believe you are losing out on CMB, damage, HP and accuracy for that.
6. Where is the basis for this claim??
7. Untamed Rager can both disable and deal good damage.
1. Neither of you factored in Rage, you made all your calculations as though the full BAB class had no features. You also have several Rage Powers that can boost that further. Plus, there's the Untamed Rager feature that boosts CMB further.
2. For some reason you are assuming Surprise Maneuvers is always on.
3. Finesse is neat when you are stuck with light armor and have meh HP. If you are not, there's really no point to it.
4. 1.5x DEX-to-damage is ultra awesome and the one thing that makes Finesse worth it for Rogues. It still doesn't compensate for the fact that Power Attack is needed to have respectable output.
5. Skills and Trapfinding is a good excuse. But I still believe you are losing out on CMB, damage, HP and accuracy for that.
7. Untamed Rager can both disable and deal good damage.
Thank goodness we're not competing with Barbarians. That's not the point.
If someone is playing a Barbarian in the group for that than we have no good reason to use this tactic regardless of class choice.
Also, I wasn't arguing that they would be better than a FULL bab class at it, merely refuting the assertion you only make up for your lower BAB. Clearly, that's not entirely true.
But more relevant.
6. Where is the basis for this claim??