Making the Rogue Work 2: Unchained Vengeance!


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Secret Wizard wrote:

1. Neither of you factored in Rage, you made all your calculations as though the full BAB class had no features. You also have several Rage Powers that can boost that further. Plus, there's the Untamed Rager feature that boosts CMB further.

2. For some reason you are assuming Surprise Maneuvers is always on.

3. Finesse is neat when you are stuck with light armor and have meh HP. If you are not, there's really no point to it.

4. 1.5x DEX-to-damage is ultra awesome and the one thing that makes Finesse worth it for Rogues. It still doesn't compensate for the fact that Power Attack is needed to have respectable output.

5. Skills and Trapfinding is a good excuse. But I still believe you are losing out on CMB, damage, HP and accuracy for that.

6. -4 AC does not translate to -4 CMD. Where is the basis for this claim??

7. Untamed Rager can both disable and deal good damage.

from crb:

Quote:

CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier

The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers. A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.

also, i'm assuming nothing. surprise maneuver WILL trigger every time, that is why you feint, to deny the dex bonus of your opponent, thus triggering it till the start of your next round.

the best way to build an untamed barbarian is with unchained barbarian (since accurate stance would increase your cmb)

assuming same base stat and equip:
@lvl8 you have
+2 from the bab
+2 from rage
+3 from accurate stance
+2 from greater dirty
+1 from untamed rager
-4 rogue debilitating
-4 surpise maneuver
----
net profit:
barbarian has +2 cmb compared to rogue.
or, if you went with a nomral barbarian, you would have
-1 on your cmb compared to rogue, but 1/rage +7 on it, more or less the same (assuming 4 round battles in which you use dirty trick 1/round)

with the barbarian, you also have lower dex, meaning less AoO from combat reflexes.

edit:
i'm not saying barbarian is a BAD option. It might even be a little better. What i'm saying, is that they are actually comparable. so if you want to play a rogue, you CAN.


another way that this might work, alas, again a small race:

ratfolk

r1)finesse, ewp,
r2)dirty fighting
r3)imp dirty
r4)kitsune style
r5)wasp familiar (mauler)
r6)scurring swarmer
f1/r6)surprise maneuvers, kitsune tricks
f2/r6)kitsune vengeance
f2/r7)evolved familiar (reach)

so, this one is funny:
a)with mulebackcords you actually can get a flying mount
b)even when not mounted, the very fact that you are in the same square as your medium sized wasp familiar means that you flank opponents that you both threated/attack

this, with a menacing aomf on the wasp (or on you), means a constant +6 on your attacks, as well as enabling surpise maneuver to every single opponent that comes into your reach.

i was kinda hoping to somehow make this one with an eldritch guardian, for the fun factor that your familiar could also dirty trick as an aoo alongside you, gaining all of your feats, but a)it comes online too late for my taste, and b)it won't have sneak attack, so it won't benefit from surpise maneuver, and lacking your equip, it's cmb will be trashy.

on the + side, after you blind/entagle/whatever them, the familiar actually stands a chance to actually damage them a bit (and by a bit, i mean tickle them^^)


I have a WIP hafling defense build. I'm posting it here in case I don't have time to actually build the level 12 and see what the numbers are.
I'm going for adaquate TWF sneaking eventually dealing crippling strike in high quantity, and stellar defensive abilities. I also try to always do my builds not dependent on golarion specific stuff

Halfling unchained rogue (scout) level 12 20pt buy
Str 10, Dex 26(19 +3 level, +4 Belt), Con 14, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 11

Alternate Racial Traits:
Fleet of Foot
Adaptable Luck

Traits:
Dirty Fighter
Adopted (rapscallion[gnome])

Feats:
1 Improved Initiative
3 Two Weapon Fighting
5 Fortunate One
7 Iron Will
9 Twist Away
11 Quicken Spell Like Ability (Major Magic)

Rogue Talents:
2 Weapon Training
4 Minor Magic (acid Splash)
6 Major Magic (vanish)
8 Combat Trick (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
10 Feat (Adaptive Fortune)
12 Crippling Strike

Skills:
Acrobatics (Edge 10)
Disable Device
Escape Artist
Perception
Stealth (Edge 5)
Use Magic Device

Magic items of note:
quick runner's shirt, menacing short sword, courageous short sword

further development
13 ERT Double Debilitation
14 Opportunist
15 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16 Dispelling Attack
also sneaking critical feat chain...


I stand corrected on the AC to CMD thing. That makes it much more appealing.


Secret Wizard wrote:
PSA: The Sneaking Critical Feat is mandatory for high level Rogues

Is this another Dirty Tactics Toolkit feat that we're not allowed to see yet?


This is a build i recently got started on for PFS. gets in a lot of sneak attacks. It doesn't work for a few levels, but gets really fun after that.

Kitsune

Traits: Berzerker of the society
Birthmark

1) Urban Barbarian: Feat: Raptor scale (+5 feet of move and 6 hp)
2) Urban barbarian Totem: bestial claws
3) Mouser Swashbuckler Feat: Fox shape
4) Vexing dodger Unchained rogue
5) Unchained rogue: Dirty fighting. Rogue talent traded in vexing dodger, gets improved dirty fighting.
______Here there be theory________
6) Unchained rogue
7) Unchained rogue Greater dirty fighting. Trapspotter?
8) unchained rogue

Even unchained rogue starts to look a little sparse after 5 levels.

The mouser, foxform, and rogue have an absurdly nice synergy. Being tiny lets you go into someone's square. Being in the square means that you flank with anyone adjacent, which is easier than flanking with someone and magnitudes easier to set up a full round sneak attack. I've gotten more full round sneaks on this fluffy bundle of death in a few scenarios than i did on my gang up ninja claw claw bite tengu's whole career.

The -4 to hit anyone else combined with the -2 -4 debilitating strike means that foes are at -6 to hit your friends, and you can give up one of your sneak attacks to make them blind until they spend a standard action to get rid of it. (Greater dirty trick seems to be the break even point: no need to go down the line more than that) It makes a very neat scout/tank combo.


Spare de Bonaire

Strait unchained rogue

Kitsune (+dex and bite attack)

1) Exotic weapon prof: Elven branched spear
2) Rogue talent Combat talent: Combat reflexes
3) Extra feat rogue talent Surprise strike (everyone is flat footed to you in the surprise round)
4) Rogue talent: Skill focus stealth
5) Phalanx formation (point blank shot for reach)
6) Weapon training, elven branched spear
7) Hellcat stealth
8) Rogue talent: hope they make something worth it by then.
9) Hellcat pounce
10)
11)

The Elven branched spear gives you Dex X 1.5 to damage.

Surprising this overcafinated kitsune and moving towards him gets you attacked (combat reflexes) , sneak attacked (surprise strike) and at higher levels hit again (without the sneak attack though). He can hide behind his own spear, move into the middle of the room so you don't know where he is, and trigger aoo's at teh worst possible times.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

The mouser, foxform, and rogue have an absurdly nice synergy. Being tiny lets you go into someone's square. Being in the square means that you flank with anyone adjacent, which is easier than flanking with someone and magnitudes easier to set up a full round sneak attack. I've gotten more full round sneaks on this fluffy bundle of death in a few scenarios than i did on my gang up ninja claw claw bite tengu's whole career.

Hmm I really like the mouser dip. However Halflings might be better at this as they can turn tiny with the help of reduce person and they also have the added benefit of the risky striker feat.

If you can stomach the worship of urgathoa and are willing to spare 50 gold a pop potions of reduce person and potion glutton really help on action economy.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Spare de Bonaire

Strait unchained rogue

Kitsune (+dex and bite attack)

1) Exotic weapon prof: Elven branched spear
2) Rogue talent Combat talent: Combat reflexes
3) Extra feat rogue talent Surprise strike (everyone is flat footed to you in the surprise round)
4) Rogue talent: Skill focus stealth
5) Phalanx formation (point blank shot for reach)
6) Weapon training, elven branched spear
7) Hellcat stealth
8) Rogue talent: hope they make something worth it by then.
9) Hellcat pounce
10)
11)

The Elven branched spear gives you Dex X 1.5 to damage.

Surprising this overcafinated kitsune and moving towards him gets you attacked (combat reflexes) , sneak attacked (surprise strike) and at higher levels hit again (without the sneak attack though). He can hide behind his own spear, move into the middle of the room so you don't know where he is, and trigger aoo's at teh worst possible times.

You don't qualify for EWP until level 2. This build is better left to Half-Elves or Elves.


Hmm hellcat pounce looks interesting and fun aswell. I might have to incorporate that somehow into my sap master build


Secret Wizard wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Spare de Bonaire

Strait unchained rogue

Kitsune (+dex and bite attack)

1) Exotic weapon prof: Elven branched spear
2) Rogue talent Combat talent: Combat reflexes
3) Extra feat rogue talent Surprise strike (everyone is flat footed to you in the surprise round)
4) Rogue talent: Skill focus stealth
5) Phalanx formation (point blank shot for reach)
6) Weapon training, elven branched spear
7) Hellcat stealth
8) Rogue talent: hope they make something worth it by then.
9) Hellcat pounce
10)
11)

The Elven branched spear gives you Dex X 1.5 to damage.

Surprising this overcafinated kitsune and moving towards him gets you attacked (combat reflexes) , sneak attacked (surprise strike) and at higher levels hit again (without the sneak attack though). He can hide behind his own spear, move into the middle of the room so you don't know where he is, and trigger aoo's at teh worst possible times.

You don't qualify for EWP until level 2. This build is better left to Half-Elves or Elves.

True, but you could make it work by interchanging Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Branched Spear) and Combat Reflexes; just use a regular Longspear or a non-reach Finessable weapon (you will probably want one for a backup even though you have Bite) at 1st level.

Actually, Elves are no better off for this than Kitsune, because they don't automatically get proficiency with Elven Branched Spears -- instead, they treat these as martial weapons, but Rogues do not get proficiency with all martial weapons. And they don't get Bite. So only Half-Elves get off the hook for needing to use a feat or a martial dip to get the weapon proficiency.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Actually, Elves are no better off for this than Kitsune, because they don't automatically get proficiency with Elven Branched Spears -- instead, they treat these as martial weapons, but Rogues do not get proficiency with all martial weapons. And they don't get Bite. So only Half-Elves get off the hook for needing to use a feat or a martial dip to get the weapon proficiency.

Elves could get off the hook with Heirloom weapon or the Swashbuckler Archetype. Still Half Elves are prolly better as they don't take the CON penalty.

Another option I was pondering was the super defenses Rogue. A halfling with Twist Away/Irrepresible/Steadfast Personality/Crane Style/Cautious Fighter reaches double digit saves on all fronts by level 5 and can rock a 30ish AC with a shield. Your damage output would be unspectacular but far from pathetic.

Traits: Irrepresible, Vessel between

1 Steadfast Personality
2 Ninja Trick: IUS
3 Twist Away
4 Ninja trick: Crane Style
5 Cautious Fighter

As to fixing up your WIL save I feel like Irrepresible/Steadfast Personality prolly works better for races with a CHA bonus than Escapologist. Early on the DC for Escapologist require considerable investment.


You need Dodge to qualify for Crane Style.

Also, you don't have Shield Prof, so your output will be extremely pathetic.


Alex Mack wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

The mouser, foxform, and rogue have an absurdly nice synergy. Being tiny lets you go into someone's square. Being in the square means that you flank with anyone adjacent, which is easier than flanking with someone and magnitudes easier to set up a full round sneak attack. I've gotten more full round sneaks on this fluffy bundle of death in a few scenarios than i did on my gang up ninja claw claw bite tengu's whole career.

Hmm I really like the mouser dip. However Halflings might be better at this as they can turn tiny with the help of reduce person and they also have the added benefit of the risky striker feat.

If you can stomach the worship of urgathoa and are willing to spare 50 gold a pop potions of reduce person and potion glutton really help on action economy.

The action economy or bar tab is rough on that :) . Also the claw claw bite sneak attack routine is very nasty.


Secret Wizard wrote:

You need Dodge to qualify for Crane Style.

Also, you don't have Shield Prof, so your output will be extremely pathetic.

Yeah forgot about the dodge prerequsite that pushes everything back 1 level. Darkwood easily fixes the shield issues however. Your prolly best off with a one level dip at level 4 to pick up IUS for free. Either Snakebite Striker or unchained Monk would work quite well here.

As to damage output I'd disagree that it's pathetic. A build as above can easily afford the following stat array after racial mods:

STR 8 DEX 19 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 16

Assuming a +1 rapier and a dex belt at level 6 you have a +12 to hit while flanking and deal 1d4+6+3d6 damage. Percision isn't gonna be lower than for builds employing PA although damage is. In exchange you become practically unhittable and can easily troll around and get into flanking positions all day.

On a whole I'd agree however that you should prolly invest into some additional offensive abilities here. I'm just not sure how. A two handd weapon as well as risky striker would help. I'm totally not a fan of investing 7 points in 13 STR for PA however that's just a poor trade off in my book.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

The action economy or bar tab is rough on that :) . Also the claw claw bite sneak attack routine is very nasty.

Hmm yeah agree claw claw bite it a big deal. However in your above build you have to jump through hoops to get it and delay your sneak attack progression as well as dex to damage forever.

Sadly there are no small races that get access to claws racially.


Alex Mack wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

The action economy or bar tab is rough on that :) . Also the claw claw bite sneak attack routine is very nasty.

Hmm yeah agree claw claw bite it a big deal. However in your above build you have to jump through hoops to get it and delay your sneak attack progression as well as dex to damage forever.

Sadly there are no small races that get access to claws racially.

Ratfolk do.

They also have access to bite
And they also use (for free) tailblade as a secondary narural


shroudb wrote:


Ratfolk do.
They also have access to bite
And they also use (for free) tailblade as a secondary narural

And I wish they were PFS legal :( that new feat from DTT is also quite sweet...


Alex Mack wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

The action economy or bar tab is rough on that :) . Also the claw claw bite sneak attack routine is very nasty.

Hmm yeah agree claw claw bite it a big deal. However in your above build you have to jump through hoops to get it and delay your sneak attack progression as well as dex to damage forever.

Sadly there are no small races that get access to claws racially.

Agile amulet of mighty fists came online at level 3-4ish. Wouldn't get dex to damage on claws and bite till 11? Dex on bite is handy though because if i don't have the claws grown the bite does dex and a half damage, so its move up bite on round 1 then grow claws and shred on 2.


two more builds, fresh from the oven:

The Tempest
"...and then, he was no longer in front of me, instead, he dashed around me like a friggin hurricane, and i was in it's eye, unable to defend as the wind swept me off my feet."-Captured Slaver

human rogue (whatever archetype you wish)/fighter 2:

r1)finesse, dodge, dirty fighting
r2)ninja trick: ius
r3)twf
r4)ninja trick: janni style
r5)janni tempest
f1/r5)surpise maneuvers
f2/r5)mobility, spring attack
f2/r6)slow reactions, combat trick: circling mongoose

starting next to an opponent:
circling mongoose
1st attack
2nd attack (flanking, sneak attack, applying -4 to opponent's ac, slow reactions)
3rd attack trip (+4 from dirty, +4 from janni, +3 from surpise, +4 from debil, +2 menacing etc... )

Scaredy-cat
"Someone kill that friggin halfling already!"-Enemy captain

halfing escapologist rogue/moms-mountain-katamaster monk 2
stats: (start with 16 cha)
traits: irripressible

r1)finesse,
r2)minor magic
r3)twist away
m1/r3)ius, crane style, panache
m2/r3)toughness, jabbing style, cautious fighter
m2/r4)major magic: vanish
m2/r5)skill unlock: escape artist, open (focus: escape artist, iron will, accomplished sneak attacker, ambush awareness, blundering defence, there are quite a few posibilities here)
m2/r6)lunge

so, basically, a super defensively build rogue, better than average saves (+3from 2lvl monk dip, +1 from halfling), very good ac (you ARE holding a buckler right?), twist away for fort saves, good will defences through irripresible+escapologist (which is now a standard action instead of a full due to skill unlock).

to top things, he really doesn't like melee combat, his 15feet reach (blue swordmaster's flair+lunge), alongside his immediate action 5ft dodge through kata master means that, even if anyone manage to close the distance, opponents will have a hell of a time to actually land full attacks on you.

jabbing style is there just to add a little extra damage, with haste and/or twf feats later on.

his escape artist score, by this point, should be something like:
8ranks+6competance+5alchemical+3class skill+3escapologist+2ring+6dex: +33 (+36 if you went with skill focus), so his effective "will save" vs mind-affecting and etc with escapologist (at round 2) is +13,

lvl12, picking skill mastery should mean autosuccess vs DC's:~35-37 and he can negate failed reflex saves or attack rolls in the range of DC/Attack roll of 45-47


Hehe scardy cat is quite the amusing build :). Multiple style feats put major preasure on your swift action economy however.


I like the idea of a defensive based halfling type of rogue who basically is built to get into and out of places. The problem is the constant 5% success rate you are working against built into the system.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Cross-posting from another thread. It's a 25-point build as shown, but can EASILY be made with a 20-point build, since the important aspects are the feats.

Ravingdork wrote:

Just worked out an amazing combat build that I wanted to share with all of you.

The only rogue you will ever need:

Kujo the Butcher, 9th-level seascarred unchained rogue [scout, thug]

There are few pirates more feared throughout the Inner Sea than the one known as Kujo the Butcher. Infamous for his vicious and bloody fighting style as well as his excessive cruelty, Kujo revels in the violent dismemberment of his foes, never missing a chance to put on an especially gruesome display for enemies and allies alike. Many are the stories in which he slowly carved into his prisoners with his many knives or consumed their flesh in an orgy of blood.

Though many a jest and rumor claim that Kujo has shark blood in his veins, few outside of his immediate crew are actually aware of Kujo’s heritage as one of the abominable seascarred—distant cousins to true weresharks. He is loath to reveal this secret to outsiders and is quick to devour anyone who might question him on the matter. Kujo has always felt an almost spiritual connection with the ocean and, like most seascarred, makes his living on or near the open sea (as a pirate in his case, or as a butcher when the need to lay low arises). The sea is his god and it constantly demands sacrifice and blood-stained waters, and Kujo is all too happy to oblige.

Nearly as famous as Kujo himself, is the giant hooked axe he carries with him at all times. Called “Wavesplitter,” the axe is said to have been a war trophy taken from a river giant lord with which Kujo once had a dispute. After butchering its former owner, Kujo had the axe head modified to look especially menacing, to better fit his frightening personality. He even went so far as to hang a stylized ribbon made of its former owner’s hair from its haft—a constant reminder to all that none are too big to be cut down to size.

As a strength-based rogue, if his enemies don't get to him first, Kujo favors charging ahead, axe leading; very much like a shark darting after a fish. After landing his first blow his foe must suddenly contend with a host of horrible side-effects including bleed damage, debilitating injury penalties, demoralization, penalties to natural armor, the and the sickened condition. He is, in effect, the ultimate rogue debuffer.

What's more, as Kujo flenses his enemy, the horrific display not only terrifies surrounding foes as well, but also emboldens his allies to serve him better. With a single charge attack and a half way decent intimidate roll, it is quite possible for Kujo to send an entire deck full of enemies diving overboard in blind fear.

Should his enemies not flee in terror or die too quickly, Kujo bides his time, circling like a shark with his allies and hacking chunks off of his foe with his menacing axe (which boosts everyone's ability to flank).

Meant for an aquatic campaign, Kujo's ability to breathe underwater or swim like a fish is sure to serve him well. Even in a land-bound adventure, his ferocity and bite attack are sure to make him a fearsome foe.

Though some of his archetype abilities (brutal beating) are somewhat redundant with his flensing strike feat, the latter only works on living creatures susceptible to bleed. Thus, when fighting a creature immune to bleed damage, brutal beating still proves quite useful to have on hand.

Note that this isn't even 100% optimized. You could do much better with a different weapon that can be finessed and uses less feats, or choose a race that has a Charisma bonus and doesn't actively penalize a key skill. I made certain decisions for fun and flavor, but I think the heart of the build is still represented quite well here.

At higher levels, you could also take the Power Attack and Hurtful feats, or perhaps Disheartening Display, Gory Display or Shatter Defenses.

In any case, I call it the Rogueking ball. (Because he's king of the rogues and something of a wrecking ball.) I hope you will help spread it around. Perhaps it will help to restore some faith in rogues.

EDIT: I recognize that the title is something of a misnomer, as you may still think you want a trap finder or a poisoner or some other meaningless niche rogue. :P

(Original appearance from Ravingdork's Crazy Character Emporium)


Alex Mack wrote:
Hehe scardy cat is quite the amusing build :). Multiple style feats put major preasure on your swift action economy however.

He doesn't have that much of a swift action problem:

Surpise you won't be able to attack usually, so you open either crane (if you are able to attack) or flair (if you dont)
1nd round you open the one you didn't open in surpise, position yourself, sneak attack
2nd round: it's usually now that you are in position for full attacks, so jabbing, full attack

At next lvl you can pick combat style master if you want, but I feel that twf is a safe option since you have good attack bonus already
(6+2moms+1size+2brawling+1haste+6dex-2fd:+16)

hiiamtom wrote:
I like the idea of a defensive based halfling type of rogue who basically is built to get into and out of places. The problem is the constant 5% success rate you are working against built into the system.

While a nat 20 will hit you, you are more likely to not get critted. The build has both toughness and fcb:hp, so you can certainly take a few stray 20s and not worry.

After lvl 10, if you need, you can easily negate most non-20 attacks through escapologist's. And his ability doesn't actually disallow ring of ferocious action, so there's that as well


Ravingdork, how does Kujo the Butcher gain any significant benefit from being unchained over say a Slayer?


I put some more thought into how to fight on the defensive and found that the madu is a less feat intensive option to pull it off.

You need only EWP Madu but then you also have to find a way to negate the ACP and that sadly means dishing out 1000 GP for a mithral version.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Havoq wrote:
Ravingdork, how does Kujo the Butcher gain any significant benefit from being unchained over say a Slayer?

The unchained rogue has more debuffs with which to stack onto enemy targets and can qualify for certain feats earlier. Also, though I didn't do it with Kujo, one could easily focus on Dexterity with this build and have generally higher defenses than that of a similarly built slayer.


OK im going to throw my lot in and I know you said 1-2 level dips arent really a solid argument. However if you even 1 level dip into Mesmerist, pick up False Flanker as the trick, And take Scout and knife master as rogue archetypes, take dual kukri's, at 5th level you can have +2d8+1d6 with your stare/SA, Get a single SA on your charge, use acrobatics to end up on the other side of the monster, next round activate false flanker and full round attack, thats 2d4+Dex x 2+2d8+1d6 (stare) with a crit of 18-20, for that one round, by this time a friend should now be able to flank with you. if not then acrobatics away and place False Flanker on your self again, next round charge and round after that activate False Flanker.


Alric Rahl wrote:

OK im going to throw my lot in and I know you said 1-2 level dips arent really a solid argument. However if you even 1 level dip into Mesmerist, pick up False Flanker as the trick, And take Scout and knife master as rogue archetypes, take dual kukri's, at 5th level you can have +2d8+1d6 with your stare/SA, Get a single SA on your charge, use acrobatics to end up on the other side of the monster, next round activate false flanker and full round attack, thats 2d4+Dex x 2+2d8+1d6 (stare) with a crit of 18-20, for that one round, by this time a friend should now be able to flank with you. if not then acrobatics away and place False Flanker on your self again, next round charge and round after that activate False Flanker.

A mesmericist dip also removes the Feat and abilty score tax from feint feats.

However in your above build critting isn't that exciting as percision damage isn't multiplied.


Alex Mack wrote:
Alric Rahl wrote:

OK im going to throw my lot in and I know you said 1-2 level dips arent really a solid argument. However if you even 1 level dip into Mesmerist, pick up False Flanker as the trick, And take Scout and knife master as rogue archetypes, take dual kukri's, at 5th level you can have +2d8+1d6 with your stare/SA, Get a single SA on your charge, use acrobatics to end up on the other side of the monster, next round activate false flanker and full round attack, thats 2d4+Dex x 2+2d8+1d6 (stare) with a crit of 18-20, for that one round, by this time a friend should now be able to flank with you. if not then acrobatics away and place False Flanker on your self again, next round charge and round after that activate False Flanker.

A mesmericist dip also removes the Feat and abilty score tax from feint feats.

However in your above build critting isn't that exciting as percision damage isn't multiplied.

Even though it seems like its not, that extra d4 per blade plus the x 2 Dex per blade is still better than nothing. so if you crit on both weapons in a full round your total damage would look like this: 4d4+Dex x 4 + 2d8 + 1d6 = an average (with Dex 20) of 37 hp per round at level 5. Might not seem that impressive, but when you can effectively do it every 2 rounds with no help or every round with a flanking buddy it can be quite deadly. Especially when a 2handed raging barbarian with a Greatsword and 20 (24 raging) str, and power attack is only doing an average of 23 damage (I feel like im forgetting some bonus) per round with only a 19-20 crit. I think it stands up, especially since with that SA damage the target is also taking a -4 to AC vs the rogue with Bewildered Debilitating Injury, making him easier to hit.

Not to mention if you took Minor and Major Magic and Quicken Spell like ability, at level 10 you would have 4 castings of Quicken Vanish. think the monster is almost dead but dont want to wait a round to cast false flanker on yourself, use quicken vanish as a swift action and kill that sucker.


and I just found the Perfect Gestalt character for me.... haha....


Alric Rahl wrote:

OK im going to throw my lot in and I know you said 1-2 level dips arent really a solid argument. However if you even 1 level dip into Mesmerist, pick up False Flanker as the trick, And take Scout and knife master as rogue archetypes, take dual kukri's, at 5th level you can have +2d8+1d6 with your stare/SA, Get a single SA on your charge, use acrobatics to end up on the other side of the monster, next round activate false flanker and full round attack, thats 2d4+Dex x 2+2d8+1d6 (stare) with a crit of 18-20, for that one round, by this time a friend should now be able to flank with you. if not then acrobatics away and place False Flanker on your self again, next round charge and round after that activate False Flanker.

ehmm, how?

you CANNOT charge and then acrobatics on the other side (on the same round at least)

so your actual sequence would be something like:
round1: charge: 1 sneak attack.
round2: tumble+ ?

also stare damage is only +1, not 1d6. you get 1d6/3lvl but there isn't a clause "min 1d6"
also, you only have like 1+cha, so 3-4 tops tricks/day.
lastly, it shouldn't be 2d4+dex *2, it should be:
1d4+dex for main hand, and 1d4+ (1/2)dex for offhand


I'm always curious why more Knife Master Scout builds don't use Horizon Walker for high level versatility. Getting dimension door for the dimensional dervish chain adds a lot of fun to late level play, though I know this thread is focused on <10.


ok, i think i'm done with most of DTT stuff, so i'll post my last build for this thread, a mobile human rogue focused (once again) on dirty trick maneuver:

str 7 dex 19 con 13 int 8 wis 10 chr 16

monk (kata master)/ Urogue (swashbuckler)

m1)dodge, agile maneuvers, mobility
r1/m1)finesse
r2/m1)dirty fighting, imp dirty
r3/m1)
r4/m1)canny tumble, dastardly trick
r5/m1)
r6/m1)confounding tumble deed, (open talent)
r7/m1)
r8/m1)surprise maneuvers, (open talent)

basically:

*edited due to some mistakes:

tumble, sneak atatck and spend 1 panache for confounding tumble deed, denying your opponent his Dex to AC vs everyone, including your allies until the end of your next round and debilitating strike

next round:
dirty trick, (if you managed to get flank with the tumble that's another +4 to the roll, but still, you should reliably hit a ton with all the bonuses you get, +2 from canny, +4 from surpise, +2 from imp dirty, +4 from equp, +1 trait, +dex, +bab, +2 menacing, etc), and spend a panache point, unless it's a high Will creature (your DC to remove the dirty trick should be ~18, not great, not garbage either)

you can either wear armor, and put a brawling enchat on it for extra att/damage/ac, or you can be naked, especially if you have a friendly mage armor casting buddy, for flurry on the next round to bring on the pain.

another variation of the build, has lower CMB (loses surpise maneuvers, whch it will pick up at lvl11) is to pick up a single level of mesmerist, add in kitsune style+tricks, and now you also inflict sicken alongside blind. This means, that even though your DC is still 18 to remove, the opponent has -4 to his saves (-6 if you went for shaken too) to actually remove it, so effective DC of 22-24


OK I actually statted out a rogue build. 20 pt buy, standard wbl at level 12. This one is ready to play, and should be PFS legal and mostly all PRD stuff. Thoughts?

Halfling Rogue (scout) 12
N Small humanoid (halfling)
Init +17; Perception +20

DEFENSE
AC 26, touch 20, flat-footed 18 (+5 armor, +8 Dex, +1 Size, +1 deflection, +1 natural armor)
hp 99 (12d8+36)
Fort +7, Ref +17, Will +10 (+2 vs fear)
Defensive Abilities evasion, danger sense +4

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Menacing Dueling Shortsword +19/+14 (1d4+8/19–20), Courageous Shortsword +19/+14 (1d4+4/19–20)
Ranged acid splash +18 (1d3) 30ft touch
Special Attacks debilitating injury (bewildered -6/-2 AC, disoriented -6/-2 attack, or hampered ½ speed), sneak attack +6d6
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th; concentration +12)
At will—acid splash
3/day—quickened vanish
3/day—vanish

STATISTICS
Str 8, Dex 26, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 9
Base Atk +9; CMB +7; CMD 26
Feats Improved Initiative 1, Two Weapon Fighting 3, Fortunate One 5, Iron Will 7, Twist Away 9, Quicken Spell Like Ability (Vanish) 11, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Adaptive Fortune
Traits Dirty Fighter, Adopted (Rapscallion)
Skills Acrobatics +23, Disable Device +29, Escape Artist +29, Intimidate, +17, Perception +20, Sense Motive +18, Stealth +32, Use Magic Device +17
Languages Common, Halfling
SQ fearless, adaptive luck +4 (5/day), fleet footed, weapon familiarity, keen senses, finesse training (shortsword), trap finding +6, evasion, rogue talents (weapon training 2, minor magic 4, major magic 6, combat trick(ITWF) 8, feat(adaptive fortune) 10, double debilitation 12), danger sense +4, debilitating injury, scout’s charge, rogue’s edge (stealth 5, acrobatics 10), skirmisher
Combat Gear acid, alchemist's fire, smoke stick (2); Other Gear Shadow Slick Determination Mithral Chain Shirt +1, Menacing Dueling Shortsword +2, Courageous Shortsword +2, Cloak of Resistance +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Ring of Deflection +1, Ring of Ferocious Action, Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4, Quick Runner’s Shirt, Handy Haversack, Goggles of Night, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, Circlet of Persuasion, Feather Step Slippers, hooded lantern, oil (5), silk rope (50 ft.), thieves' tools, 18pp

TACTICS
Round 1: Get Haste and Heroism(or any other minor morale) buffs up from party. Fire a sneak attack acid splash with double debilitation using skirmisher movement, by winning initiative, or from stealth. Move into flank with invisibility, scout abilities, or quick runner's shirt.
Round 2 on: ITWF sneak attacks with double debilitation. Swift cast vanish if necessary. If targeted, use adaptable luck on saving throws.
Ranged acid splash +21 (1d3) 30ft touch
Melee Menacing Dueling Shortsword +27/+27/+22 (1d4+8+6d6/19–20), Courageous Shortsword +27/+22 (1d4+4+6d6/19–20) vs AC~25 with bewildered.
With Adaptable Luck and twist away: Fort +24, Ref +24, Will +17 (+2 vs fear), effective AC 32 with disoriented, Invisible, 50% miss chance.

DPR reliably over 100 on full attacks with a flanking buddy. Can still disarm your magic traps.


i don't really see the point of courageous weapon after the errata.

i find your stats a bit high, maybe you claculated that it still affects all the morale bonuses? (it only affects morale bonuses vs fear) (i can see: 9bab+8dex+2weapon-2twf+1haste+2heroism+1size: +21/+25 when flanking, with BOTH haste AND heroism AND flank, which isn't something you can count on all the time)

your saves also seem high:
4/8/4 base, +1 cloak, +2 heroism, stats (2/8/3), iron will: 9/19/10 i have no clue how you got 27/27/22, even with adaptive, it should be something like 13/23/16, so you seem to lack a bit more to reach the numbers you posted

(you can't use twist away + ring of ferocious action, that also got erratta'ed)

if you fire the ray for your sneak attack, by the time you play again, the debilitating has worn off, so you need to hit that first hit in order to reapply, usually making that 1st attack one of the most important for the rogue to hit

as for actual thoughts:

get rid of courageous
get rid of ring of ferocious action
bump cloak of resistance to at least +3, preferably +4 (you dont want to use twist away except for save or suck, since staggered kills your action economy)
get rid of determination and pump your base ac a bit higher
get a jingasa for the crit negation and ac
i'm personally a big fan of vest of escape for skill boosting
eyes of eagle are also sweet, probably would prefer them over darkvision, or at least keep both sets and switch


Wait I thought quicken spell like ability was a monster feat. Can anyone use it?


Woodoodoo wrote:
Wait I thought quicken spell like ability was a monster feat. Can anyone use it?

Outside of PFS yes.

Scarab Sages

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Woodoodoo wrote:
Wait I thought quicken spell like ability was a monster feat. Can anyone use it?
Outside of PFS yes.

With GM approval. While it's not forbidden, not everyone smiles on pcs with monster feats.


Guess I need to go back and look at the erratas. Actually that might free up enough cash to get a magic item with blur on it.


Imbicatus wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Woodoodoo wrote:
Wait I thought quicken spell like ability was a monster feat. Can anyone use it?
Outside of PFS yes.
With GM approval. While it's not forbidden, not everyone smiles on pcs with monster feats.

Yeah, because reasons. Sometimes I feel like some GMs should just write up everyone's character and cut out the middle man.


^Somewhat off-topic, but those are otherwise known as homebuilt pregens. I don't know how much anyone has done that, except that I did this once myself in an attempt at a campaign where I was trying to introduce D&D (1st Edition) to some new people in a group that also contained some experienced some labeled Chaotic Neutral/actually Chaotic Evil players (yes, I mean players, not just PCs), and I wanted to steer the latter types into away from their evil behavior (I had the most likely forlorn idea that if I gave them Chaotic Good pregens, I might get actual Chaotic Neutral out of the deal).

Somewhat back on-topic, that was back when Thieves (they didn't call them Rogues until 2nd Edition) had d6 hit dice and 1/2 BAB (worse than Cleric on both counts, while the Wizard precursor known as Magic-Users had d4 hit dice and 2/5 BAB), but you had pretty much NO build options with which to fix this. Which -- rambling back off-topic again -- reminds me of a different campaign at close to the same time in which I played a Thief, Rolled 00 (Royalty) for Social Status, and rolled 1 for initial hit points . . . .


The Sczarni Swindler Archetype

This Archetype is probably one of the best defensive Rogue Archetypes that I can think of.

Quote:
No Fool (Ex): At 4th level, the Sczarni swindler gains a +1 bonus on Will saving throws. This bonus increases by 1 for every 4 levels beyond 4th (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level). This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

You give up trapfinding for what ammounts to a good will save progression

Its "Let Fate Decide" ability can be really good too, but has issues with getting it to work reliably.


Deadkitten wrote:


You give up trapfinding for what ammounts to a good will save progression

Its "Let Fate Decide" ability can be really good too, but has issues with getting it to work reliably.

Actually it's a full prgoression -2. Also most of the other abilities are pretty bad. Let fate decide would be cool if it weren't for the work standard action in there. With that it might be nice out of combat some times but in combat it's useless.


Alex Mack wrote:
Deadkitten wrote:


You give up trapfinding for what ammounts to a good will save progression

Its "Let Fate Decide" ability can be really good too, but has issues with getting it to work reliably.

Actually it's a full prgoression -2. Also most of the other abilities are pretty bad. Let fate decide would be cool if it weren't for the work standard action in there. With that it might be nice out of combat some times but in combat it's useless.

5+6=11 but that hardly matters.

It's biggest flaw is that it cannot be combined with any other archetype.

And honestly, the abilities it trades out aren't that good to begin with so I don't think it's too big of a problem.

All you really need for let fate decide to work is have some form of invisibility up and you should be good. It can be a great way to boost accuracy.

I will take a free reroll of any d20 1-3 times a day over improved uncanny dodge any day.

Poker face isn't really that good but you give up trap sense so I see that as a eqaull trade.

Quicker than the eye is the only real hit in the archetype bit it only replaces evasion.

Scarab Sages

UnArcaneElection wrote:


Somewhat back on-topic, that was back when Thieves (they didn't call them Rogues until 2nd Edition) had d6 hit dice and 1/2 BAB (worse than Cleric on both counts, while the Wizard precursor known as Magic-Users had d4 hit dice and 2/5 BAB), but you had pretty much NO build options with which to fix this. Which -- rambling back off-topic again -- reminds me of a different campaign at close to the same time in which I played a Thief, Rolled 00 (Royalty) for Social Status, and rolled 1 for initial hit points . . . .

At first level, they were pretty terrible, but back then the Thief earned levels at twice the rate as anyone else. When a Fighter or Ranger was second or third level a Thief was a fifth or sixth. 5d6 hit dice compared to 2d10, and close to the same THAC0 thanks to the XP difference.


So does anybody have an unchained rogue in any of their campaigns for active playing?

We have one at first level. It's already an improvement with the finesse training allowing for more dex and less str and basically a free feat. The ac and initiative bonuses have been noticeable, as well as the ability to land hits from a flank at level 1.

Sovereign Court

I play an Unchained Rogue 3. Loving it so far. It will be an absolute blast at level 4 (TWP, Quickdraw, Weapon Focus: Dagger... if lands 2 sneaks per round, 1st one to reduce opponent's AC by 4, and 2nd one to reduce the opponent's attacks by 4... :) )


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
I play an Unchained Rogue 3. Loving it so far. It will be an absolute blast at level 4 (TWP, Quickdraw, Weapon Focus: Dagger... if lands 2 sneaks per round, 1st one to reduce opponent's AC by 4, and 2nd one to reduce the opponent's attacks by 4... :) )

You can only deal 1 type of debilitating injury at a time at that level, in your example above: If your second attack lands and you choose to reduce the to-hit bonus of your target, the penalty to his AC would immediately end.

Later you may take an advanced talent to deal out 2 at a time.

Of course you may be aware of that and merely wanted the second attack to have a higher chance to land.


Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

My 9th-level unchained rogue, Kujo the Butcher, is easily the scariest martial in the party, not because of his damage per say, but because of his horrible, debilitating debuffs.

And he isn't even optimized for Dexterity! He could be SO much meaner if I wasn't married to the axe-wielding shark butcher concept.

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