In all of this, I'm wondering- can anyone think of an example in which a penalty to an ability/skill (other than initiative) retroactively influences the result of a check made with that ability/skill?
I can't think of anything right now, though someone might know a case... But as far as I know this goes or the entire system; once you've rolled for a check and the results have been applied (so taking rerolls and other immediate actions into account), that's it.
So for initiative checks, roll to find your starting initiative- and your initiative can be altered by readying and delaying throughout combat, but the result of your check can't be altered once applied, as far as I know.
Please, read again:
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects. Characters act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).
Let's break it down, line by line:
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check.
We're clear on this, right? At the start of a battle, you make an initiative check.
An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects.
Okay, so now we know what that initiative check involves: a dex check, which is a d20 roll plus your dex mod, plus anything else that affects your initiative modifier, including any spell effects, feats, and so on.
So we have determined: at the start of battle, you roll a d20 and add your dex mod, plus spell effects, feats, and anything else that modifies your initiative. This includes things like deafness, which gives -4 to the initiative check.
Characters act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest.
Pretty simple -- highest total init roll goes first, and characters act in order of their results from highest to lowest.
In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order
This part means that the order does not change, exceptions notwithstanding. The exceptions are in the parenthetical statement that follows this one.
(unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).
These actions include delayed actions and readied actions. There's not much to this section; I linked to it above. It does not include changes to initiative modifier in the text anywhere in that section.
So, you roll your initiative once and add your initiative mod to it. That determines combat order. Combat order stays the same unless a readied action or delayed action changes it. Changes to the initiative modifier do not change the initiative order because the initiative check, which is performed once at the beginning of combat, has already been made. You don't check initiative at any point after combat has begun, thus you do not modify the initiative order after combat has begun, unless a readied action or delayed action would change the initiative order.
The rules-team, by the look of it, made it so that initiative order can't change mid-combat by initiative numbers being changed, because it's simpler that way. You don't have to keep track of the numbers and update them. You don't have to deal with the confusion over someone increasing initiative past the current-initiative marker and missing their turn. Unconscious players continue to 'act' at the same point in the sequence. You just keep track of the order, and change the order when someone delays.
This leads to some slightly odd results - for example, if there was a spell that did nothing but reduce an enemies' initiative, in order to get any benefit from it, you'd have to cast it on them, break off combat, and then attack them again. That may be why no such spell exists.
It is a fairly easy house-rule to run it the other way.
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Okay, so, to reiterate what I was trying to say, there are two camps here. Let's cut down on the fuel for the fire.
@ kinevon, Gauss, and others on "that side":
You need to avoid using your houserules when answering the OP's question. Removing numbers, however common the practice is, is still a houserule, and is not supported anywhere.
When you keep defending that view, it only lends alex and kyrt and others on "their side" credibility that the other points you're making are likewise houserules.
Your points do nothing to answer the question of "Do conditions modify Initiative mid-combat?", so for the sake of this argument, just avoid using them.
@ kyrt and alex:
It is of your belief that the spell Unprepared Combatant modifies someone's Initiative when cast on them mid-combat, correct?
Would it be safe to assume that you believe that all mid-combat Initiative penalties modify someone's place in Initiative?
If "yes", then it logically follows that all mid-combat Initiative bonuses likewise modify someone's place in Initiative, correct?
So, what happens in the following situation?
Wizard goes on Initiative 10
Enemy goes on Initiative 9
Wizard casts Cat's Grace on the Enemy, moving their Initiative to 11.
Does the Enemy effectively "lose" their turn, because their place in Initiative has already come and gone?
In all of this, I'm wondering- can anyone think of an example in which a penalty to an ability/skill (other than initiative) retroactively influences the result of a check made with that ability/skill?
I can't think of anything right now, though someone might know a case... But as far as I know this goes or the entire system; once you've rolled for a check and the results have been applied (so taking rerolls and other immediate actions into account), that's it.
So for initiative checks, roll to find your starting initiative- and your initiative can be altered by readying and delaying throughout combat, but the result of your check can't be altered once applied, as far as I know.
The exception I tend to make is for skills that are "in progress". If you make a Stealth roll, I'll figure out when you're found by when the distance modifier stops being enough to have you beat their Perception. The other example where I would do it is if you were in the middle of, say, balancing and an opponent's readied action zapped you with a Dex penalty. I would figure out if your Acrobatics was still enough to make it across and have you fall/stop then if not.
So the concept of reevaluating a completed roll isn't outside of the things I would consider. It's more that I consider the initiative roll done when we determine initial reactions and that it's "taking turns" after that.
Okay, so, to reiterate what I was trying to say, there are two camps here. Let's cut down on the fuel for the fire.
@ kinevon, Gauss, and others on "that side":
You need to avoid using your houserules when answering the OP's question. Removing numbers, however common the practice is, is still a houserule, and is not supported anywhere.
When you keep defending that view, it only lends alex and kyrt and others on "their side" credibility that the other points you're making are likewise houserules.
Your points do nothing to answer the question of "Do conditions modify Initiative mid-combat?", so for the sake of this argument, just avoid using them.
@ kyrt and alex:
It is of your belief that the spell Unprepared Combatant modifies someone's Initiative when cast on them mid-combat, correct?
Would it be safe to assume that you believe that all mid-combat Initiative penalties modify someone's place in Initiative?
If "yes", then it logically follows that all mid-combat Initiative bonuses likewise modify someone's place in Initiative, correct?
So, what happens in the following situation?
Wizard goes on Initiative 10
Enemy goes on Initiative 9Wizard casts Cat's Grace on the Enemy, moving their Initiative to 11.
Does the Enemy effectively "lose" their turn, because their place in Initiative has already come and gone?
Please do not misrepresent my point of view, especially if you are not going to bother reading my posts. I specifically stated that I do not use that and that it is not a house rule. I stated it as game theory, not as rules.
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@ kyrt and alex:
Would it be safe to assume that you believe that all mid-combat Initiative penalties modify someone's place in Initiative?
Nope. Only the ones that are Specific Rules altering Initiative. Your example of an offensive-use of Cat's Grace doesn't work because the general rule of Initiative Doesn't Change unless Changed overrides something general like the change of a dexterity modifier in either direction.
It's only when an effect specifically references Initiative that it overrides that.
Can you point to an effect that specifically references initiative order and not initiative checks? Because I don't think you'll have much luck finding anything of the sort.
kyrt-ryder, there is only one time you are allowed to apply modifiers to initiative, during the initiative check. That is spelled out in the rules that have been quoted several times now.
Do you have a rule that states otherwise? If so, please show it.
I think if you cast cat's grace on someone and gave them a bonus to initiative, under no circumstances could it force them to lose their actions...
Also, keeping track of initiative isn't exactly rocket science, it's just another number.
Lastly, unless you don't use specific>general, why WOULDN'T stuff that modifies initiative, you know, modify it?
I don't disagree that you only roll initiative once, but NOWHERE does it say you just toss that number away after you figure out order in relation to other people.
In fact, as I keep saying, actions like Delay and Ready CHANGE YOUR PLACE IN INITIATIVE.
Clearly keeping track of initiative is (at the very least) a good idea, if not required...
Anywho, I never really considered what changing DEX would do before this thread, it's given me a lot to think about. We DO have things that explicitly state they modify initiative (such as Deafness) do what they say, starting when they begin affecting you...
Table variances obviously happen, but it is my opinion that initiative (the number) should be tracked, and can be changed mid-combat. Just because you only roll at the start doesn't mean the number ceases being important after that.
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Your initiative modifier can be changed by certain conditions (like deafness).
Your initiative roll at the start of combat is static unless you delay or ready an action.
Giving a penalty to a modifier does NOT retroactively apply to previous rolls.
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I think if you cast cat's grace on someone and gave them a bonus to initiative, under no circumstances could it force them to lose their actions...
So, what happens?
Also, keeping track of initiative isn't exactly rocket science, it's just another number.
Hopefully that's settled now. Pretend that discussion never happened. Indeed, you need to keep track of what everyone rolled, especially since other combatants could enter in at their own Initiative in later rounds.
Lastly, unless you don't use specific>general, why WOULDN'T stuff that modifies initiative, you know, modify it?
There's nothing to imply that Deafness, Dex penalties, or Unprepared Combatant modify your position in Initiative mid-combat. This isn't a matter of "specific>general". All of those conditions can exist pre-combat.
In fact, as I keep saying, actions like Delay and Ready CHANGE YOUR PLACE IN INITIATIVE.
Nobody's disagreeing with you, but as I stated up thread, Actions and Conditions are 2 separate things. Just because conditions don't modify your Initiative mid-combat doesn't mean Actions can't.
Anywho, I never really considered what changing DEX would do before this thread, it's given me a lot to think about.
Indeed. I'd like to know what conclusion you come to. Sleep on it, and post again tomorrow.
Your initiative modifier can be changed by certain conditions (like deafness).
Your initiative roll at the start of combat is static unless you delay or ready an action.
Giving a penalty to a modifier does NOT retroactively apply to previous rolls.
Agreed.
If you apply a STR penalty or bonus (such as gaining a point from levelling), it doesn't affect what you rolled for strength, it affects your STR score.
Same for initiative. It doesn't modify your ROLL, it modifies the number that was produced BY the roll.
Semantics, but my example makes sense, I think...
In any case, we treat initiative as something that can change.
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If you apply a STR penalty or bonus (such as gaining a point from levelling), it doesn't affect what you rolled for strength, it affects your STR score.
Correct, now you're getting it.
Same for initiative. It doesn't modify your ROLL, it modifies the number that was produced BY the roll.
I...what...you literally just said that you understood the difference between modifiers and results. How is the number produced by your roll any different from the result of the roll?
Look at what you yourself said.
If you apply a STR penalty or bonus (such as gaining a point from levelling), it doesn't affect what you rolled for strength, it affects your STR score.
Right there. So with the same logic, giving somebody an initiative penalty does not effect what they rolled for initiative. It will only effect their initiative modifier.