| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You roll initiative once at the beginning of combat. Combat order is determined based on these rolls. The only thing that changes combat order after that event is a delayed action or a readied action. There is no room for discussion beyond that. It is as simple as can be. If you want to house rule differently, that is something you should discuss in the house rules forum.
Personally, I would do this:
1)Calculate initiative using existing rules (general)
2)If things modify initiative, apply it (specific)
But maybe that's just me.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The strength of giving an init penalty is to put it on somebody pre-combat. If you know you're about to start a barfight, slap it on all the bouncers before your fighter throws a punch. If you're listening to the BBEG monologue, see if you can hit him with it. A penalty does not retroactively apply to previous rolls. If that were the case, a ray of exhaustion would make previous attack rolls lower, changing the very timeline to recompense the effects of the spells.
The strength of giving an init penalty is to put it on somebody pre-combat. If you know you're about to start a barfight, slap it on all the bouncers before your fighter throws a punch. If you're listening to the BBEG monologue, see if you can hit him with it. A penalty does not retroactively apply to previous rolls. If that were the case, a ray of exhaustion would make previous attack rolls lower, changing the very timeline to recompense the effects of the spells.
So you are explicitly stating that no-one can affect your initiative no matter what?
Interesting.
They can kill you, but they can't delay you?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The strength of giving an init penalty is to put it on somebody pre-combat. If you know you're about to start a barfight, slap it on all the bouncers before your fighter throws a punch. If you're listening to the BBEG monologue, see if you can hit him with it. A penalty does not retroactively apply to previous rolls. If that were the case, a ray of exhaustion would make previous attack rolls lower, changing the very timeline to recompense the effects of the spells.So you are explicitly stating that no-one can affect your initiative no matter what?
Interesting.
They can kill you, but they can't delay you?
I...literally just gave examples of being able to effect initiative. You can't retroactively change what their roll is through a penalty, but you can make their initial roll have a penalty on it.
I...literally just gave examples of being able to effect initiative. You can't retroactively change what their roll is through a penalty, but you can make their initial roll have a penalty on it.The strength of giving an init penalty is to put it on somebody pre-combat. If you know you're about to start a barfight, slap it on all the bouncers before your fighter throws a punch. If you're listening to the BBEG monologue, see if you can hit him with it. A penalty does not retroactively apply to previous rolls. If that were the case, a ray of exhaustion would make previous attack rolls lower, changing the very timeline to recompense the effects of the spells.So you are explicitly stating that no-one can affect your initiative no matter what?
Interesting.
They can kill you, but they can't delay you?
Wow.
Immune to initiative modification.
Even the gods can't affect you.
A caster can literally stop time, create new planes... but they can't affect your initiative?
Ok.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I would do this:
1)Calculate initiative using existing rules (general)
2)If things modify initiative, apply it (specific)But maybe that's just me.
Only if they say, explicitly, that they modify existing Initiative rolls made before the spell is cast.
Let us consider a simple spell, one everyone knows.
Cat's Grace.
If you are under the spell before you roll Initiative, the +4 bonus to your Dexterity would also apply, indirectly, as a +2 bonus to your Initiative modifier.
However, if someone casts it on you during a combat, it won't modify your current Initiative, because, as so many have said, effects like this do not apply retroactively, unless they specify that they do.
At the beginning of combat, you roll an Initiative check. The results are resolved as your initial position in the Initiative Order chart/table/what-have-you.
During combat, the only things that can, normally, affect your place in the initiative order is the result of a Ready going off, or coming back in from a Delay in a different spot.
Note that, for the Delay, that is a very indefinite "number" that you get when you come back. If you come back after person Am whose original initiative check result was a 23, and person B, whose original initiative check result was a 13, what is your new number? All I can tell you is that it is somewhere between 13 and 23, exclusive, so adding 2 to it later, from Cat's Grace, can be really difficult to adjudicate.
And, just because we can, let's consider this in light of a very similar spell, Bull's Strength.
By taking your position out to the far end, if someone gets Bull's Strength cast on them during a combat, not only does it modify their to hit and damage rolls for the rest of combat, the new rolls; but it should also be applied to every attack and damage roll they made from the beginning of combat.
No, that way lies madness. Modifiers only modify new rolls, unless they carry an explicit reference that they also apply retroactively.
None of the spells referenced, so far as I have seen, do that.
3.5 had a set of spells that explicitly applied to Initiative for the current encounter, but they also had explicit information that that was how they worked, and they used actions for the casting in compliance with that definition.
Personally, I would do this:
1)Calculate initiative using existing rules (general)
2)If things modify initiative, apply it (specific)But maybe that's just me.
Only if they say, explicitly, that they modify existing Initiative rolls made before the spell is cast.
Let us consider a simple spell, one everyone knows.
Cat's Grace.
If you are under the spell before you roll Initiative, the +4 bonus to your Dexterity would also apply, indirectly, as a +2 bonus to your Initiative modifier.
However, if someone casts it on you during a combat, it won't modify your current Initiative, because, as so many have said, effects like this do not apply retroactively, unless they specify that they do.At the beginning of combat, you roll an Initiative check. The results are resolved as your initial position in the Initiative Order chart/table/what-have-you.
During combat, the only things that can, normally, affect your place in the initiative order is the result of a Ready going off, or coming back in from a Delay in a different spot.
Note that, for the Delay, that is a very indefinite "number" that you get when you come back. If you come back after person Am whose original initiative check result was a 23, and person B, whose original initiative check result was a 13, what is your new number? All I can tell you is that it is somewhere between 13 and 23, exclusive, so adding 2 to it later, from Cat's Grace, can be really difficult to adjudicate.And, just because we can, let;s consider this in light of a very similar spell, Bull's Strength.
By taking your position out to the far end, if someone gets Bull's Strength cast on them during a combat, not only does it modify their to hit and damage rolls for the rest of combat, the new rolls; but it should also be applied to every attack and damage roll they made from the beginning of combat.No, that way lies madness. Modifiers only modify new rolls, unless they carry an explicit reference that...
General rules don't over-ride specific ones, correct?
So stating that initiative can't be changed because of (general) isn't valid... if something specific modifies it.
1)Combat starts, calculate Initiative score (record the number, as per the book).
2)Start combat, in order according to initiative number (as previously recorded).
3)During combat, if something modifies initiative (such as Ready, or Delay), then change your initiative to the appropriate number.
4)Why can't something change your initiative during combat that is specifically made to do so? A spell, perhaps? Does specific no longer trump general for some reason?
Why does specific not trump general rules in this case? Please provide rules text to support the answer.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wow, this thread is still going?
For a modifier to affect a die roll it must be going at the time the die is rolled unless the ability granting the modifier states it can be applied after the roll.
Initiative is rolled only once, during the beginning of combat. Apply all modifiers and move on.
Wow, this thread is still going? Initiative is rolled at the beginning. It is not rolled every round. For it to affect the roll it must be on the target at the time (or via an ability that states it applies retroactively). This is basic to how the game works. You cannot modify rolls afterwards unless an ability states you can.
Ok.
Can you, or can you not, modify your initiative?
The strength of giving an init penalty is to put it on somebody pre-combat. If you know you're about to start a barfight, slap it on all the bouncers before your fighter throws a punch. If you're listening to the BBEG monologue, see if you can hit him with it. A penalty does not retroactively apply to previous rolls. If that were the case, a ray of exhaustion would make previous attack rolls lower, changing the very timeline to recompense the effects of the spells.You DO realize that targeting an unwilling person with a spell initiates combat right?
You may have a surprise round during the casting, but last I read the rules initiative is rolled the instant combat starts, including those who don't participate in the surprise round.
And clearly initiative is rolled before your spell goes off. If you didn't have surprise they could beat your initiative and bash your skull in before you even got to cast it.
Yup, you shouldn't cast it if they're aware you're an enemy. But people don't auto identify you're the caster. Throw it in a crowded room and they go "Huh, something hit me." Then drink for another minute before having the fighter punch him in the face.
Wow.
Immune to initiative modification.
Even the gods can't affect you.
A caster can literally stop time, create new planes... but they can't affect your initiative?
Ok.
Immune to retroactively changing your rolls, yes. Imagine "You hit that round, but the caster just altered reality so that you didn't".
"Oh was that a powerful 9th level spell?"
"No it was ray of exhaustion."
~~~
You can alter initiative a hundred different ways. But you can't alter a previous roll just because you altered their bonus to it. It does not retroactively apply, as kinevon puts it
No, that way lies madness. Modifiers only modify new rolls, unless they carry an explicit reference that they also apply retroactively.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
alexd1976, your question is misleading and incomplete. (Also, I was editing when you quoted me, I was rephrasing my statement.)
Yes, you can modify an initiative result when it is rolled using all applicable modifiers.
No, you cannot modify an initiative result 'someday later' because the roll is done. I know of no abilities that allow you to modify an initiative result in a later turn.
Yes, you can modify your place in the initiative order using abilities such as Delay or Ready. This still does not modify your rolled initiative result, it tosses it out completely.
Wow, this thread is still going? Initiative is rolled at the beginning. It is not rolled every round. For it to affect the roll it must be on the target at the time (or via an ability that states it applies retroactively). This is basic to how the game works. You cannot modify rolls afterwards unless an ability states you can.Ok.
Can you, or can you not, modify your initiative?
You are overgeneralizing. You can modify initiative modifiers. You cannot modify the result of a different person's previous initiative roll without some serious god-level timeline altering magic (wish, miracle, etc.)
You are overgeneralizing. You can modify initiative modifiers. You cannot modify the result of a different person's previous initiative roll without some serious god-level timeline altering magic (wish, miracle, etc.)Wow, this thread is still going? Initiative is rolled at the beginning. It is not rolled every round. For it to affect the roll it must be on the target at the time (or via an ability that states it applies retroactively). This is basic to how the game works. You cannot modify rolls afterwards unless an ability states you can.Ok.
Can you, or can you not, modify your initiative?
So you believe that someone can imprison you in time, kill you, send you to another plane, turn you into a rabbit...
But NOT affect how fast you go.
Ok.
This is a fun discussion. Explain why that is.
What you have rolled is what is being modified. There is no debate over whether or not you roll again... I don't know why people keep talking about THAT.
alexd1976, it doesn't matter why that is. What matters is the rules. Unless the rules provide for altering a roll at a later date then they you cannot do that.
Frankly, you seem attached to initiative being 'fast'. It isn't, it is 'who went first'. After that, it is a pointless value. It is a position you occupy in a circle of who is first, second, third, etc. The number is 100% irrelevant after that order is assigned.
You cannot modify a roll result after it is made unless an ability specifically states you can. This is a basic premise of the game.
1) Roll the dice
2) Add all bonuses and penalties
3) Announce the roll result.
Once the result is announced it is locked, nothing can change it, UNLESS someone has an ability that states you can modify the result after it is announced. There are a number of abilities that state this, but none that I am aware of that apply to initiative.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
3)During combat, if something modifies initiative (such as Ready, or Delay), then change your initiative to the appropriate number.
So, what is the appropriate number when you come out of Delay?
4)Why can't something change your initiative during combat that is specifically made to do so? A spell, perhaps? Does specific no longer trump general for some reason?
Why does specific not trump general rules in this case? Please provide rules text to support the answer.
Because it is not a specific you are trying to apply.
Specific would be something like the 3.5 spells I referenced, which were designed to modify your initiative for a combat. They did so, however, by being designed to be cast before you roll initiative, and had instructions on the very limited time period they could be used.
So, since Cat's Grace gives an explicit boost to Dexterity, and Initiative is a Dexterity check, does casting Cat's Grace on someone in the middle of combat modify the initiative roll they made at the beginning of combat?
If so, please cite the rule that allows it, or the reference in the spell that it changes your initiative, and not just your initiative modifier.
Let us also consider the spell mentioned earlier, Unprepared Combatant:
The target takes a –4 penalty on initiative checks and Reflex saves.
It doesn't say they take a penalty on their existing initiative, just on initiative checks. So, future initiative checks.
Consider Cat's Grace:
The transmuted creature becomes more graceful, agile, and coordinated. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity, adding the usual benefits to AC, Reflex saves, and other uses of the Dexterity modifier.
That would include giving them a +2 bonus to initiative, when such checks are rolled.
How does it modify an existing roll? It doesn't. Neither does Unprepared Combatant.
They would have to include specific language in them to allow such modification, they do not, otherwise, change pre-existing rolls.
Would Cat's Grace allow all the arrows shot earlier in the same combat, that missed by one or two, to retroactively hit? After all, that is one of the benefits of gaining a +4 to your Dex, that your ranged attack rolls go up by +2...
alexd1976, it doesn't matter why that is. What matters is the rules. Unless the rules provide for altering a roll at a later date then they you cannot do that.
Frankly, you seem attached to initiative being 'fast'. It isn't, it is 'who went first'. After that, it is a pointless value. It is a position you occupy in a circle of who is first, second, third, etc. The number is 100% irrelevant after that order is assigned.
That is an interesting opinion.
At my table (and with most initiative tracking software) the actual number is kept track of.
Altering a roll at a later date...
such as the action of "Aid another"?
Do you also not allow that?
Yes, because the number is how most people think of order. And it is needed for future entries into the combat.
But, play without the number and just the order of people and it works exactly the same.
Whether you use the number or not it doesn't change the fact that you cannot modify a result after it is announced (and usually not after it is rolled) unless you have an ability that specifically states you can.
Aid Another cannot be applied retroactively. It must be applied at the time of the roll.
Yes, because the number is how most people think of order. And it is needed for future entries into the combat.
But, play without the number and just the order of people and it works exactly the same.
Whether you use the number or not it doesn't change the fact that you cannot modify a result after it is announced (and usually not after it is rolled) unless you have an ability that specifically states you can.
So you choose to ignore the number after initiative is rolled (not a rule) and then ignore specific>general.
Correct?
Not correct, I did not say that is how I do it. I said that the number is irrelevant (assuming someone is not entering battle in a later round). Try not to assign statements to me that I did not make.
Using or not using numbers (after setting up the initiative) is irrelevant (again, assuming someone is not entering battle in a later round) because nothing changes initiative values except for Ready and Delay. Those do it in relation to another character, not in relation to a number (although you do set the value to the time they acted that is still not relevant to a functional system).
It appears I am confusing you with the game theory behind initiative rather than the rules at hand so I will go back to just a rules discussion.
The rules at hand: Roll a dice, apply modifiers, announce the roll. Nothing changes that roll at a later date unless there is an ability that says it does.
If you can find an initiative modifier that states it modifies it at a later date...then please, point it out.
shroudb, you are misunderstanding the delay rules. You can absolutely delay until after opponent 1 and before opponent 2. The section you are missing is 3 paragraphs later.
If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
alexd1976 Stop inventing quotes to strawman us.
You cannot change the result of a roll retroactively after the results of it have already occurred. If that was the case, I would throw a ray of enfeeblement at you and heal off all the damage you did to me earlier.
|
|
alexd1976, it doesn't matter why that is. What matters is the rules. Unless the rules provide for altering a roll at a later date then they you cannot do that.
Frankly, you seem attached to initiative being 'fast'. It isn't, it is 'who went first'. After that, it is a pointless value. It is a position you occupy in a circle of who is first, second, third, etc. The number is 100% irrelevant after that order is assigned.
That is an interesting opinion.
At my table (and with most initiative tracking software) the actual number is kept track of.
Sure, the number remains, as a legacy. Once it is rolled, though, it is, like most other rolls that have been completed, inviolate.
Now, there are ways to replace it, using things like reroll abilities, but those all occur at the time of the initial roll.
Please, Alex, name me ONE other spell or ability that modifies a roll made in a previous round of combat. Until you can, and until you can point out a rule, specific or general, that allows you to change a rolled result turns after it is done, you don't have a leg to stand on.
All those spells I know of, like the Bard spells, all are used as Immediate actions to change the roll immediately after it fails. Saving Finale, for example.
shroudb, you are misunderstanding the delay rules. You can absolutely delay until after opponent 1 and before opponent 2. The section you are missing is 3 paragraphs later.
If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.By raw this cannot happen due to the:
"When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally."
And:
"You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then"Raw says that you can delay on a lower initiative of the SAME round.
shroudb, you are ignoring the rest of the rule.
Initiative Consequences of Delaying: Your initiative
result becomes the count on which you took the delayed action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action, you don’t get to take a delayed action (though you can delay again).
If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
Please read the ENTIRE rule, it clearly shows that you can delay into the next round up to your normal turn.
Actually, the rules say otherwise alexd1976.
Initiative
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects. Characters act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions on page 202).
If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll to determine which one of them goes before the other.Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
Inaction: Even if you can’t take actions, you retain your initiative score for the duration of the encounter.
Black and white, there is no provision for a spell altering your initiative AFTER the initiative check. The only provisions for altering your initiative are in Special Initiative Actions on page 202. Those provisions are Delay and Ready.
If you believe a spell or ability should alter initiative AFTER the initiative check, QUOTE THE RULE.
I have clearly shown that the rule does not allow you to do this, now...
You quote a general rule, I speak of specific rules.
You ignore specific.
Ok.
Nothing, anywhere, says that you STOP using the number you rolled.
YOU have assumed that initiative is somehow static (despite several actions that allow you to change it)...
At my table, we track the number.
If something subtracts from it, you go slower... it's almost like penalties have meaning.
Go figure.
I don't need to prove anything. I use the rules.
The rules don't tell you to ignore the number you rolled, YOU ignore the number you rolled.