RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I wanted to discuss Familiars for a bit. Let's presume PFS, where they clamp down significantly on letting Familiars be combat-viable wand wielders and so on.
I would not recommend putting any familiar in combat unless they have the figment archetype; they're simply too fragile for that even if the GM does not actively focus on killing it. I'm not impressed by the Silvanshee's combat options either; +8 to strength sounds cool until you realize that his base strength is only 3... and his AC is still pretty bad even with chain barding on.
In terms of utility, truespeech and commune are likely to be useful more often than blindsense. If you want combat use, you really need an animal companion, not a familiar. Also, don't overlook the usefulness of non-advanced familiars with an archetype...
Yeah, that's kind of what I was figuring. Glad to get confirmation the numbers are what I thought they were: "If you give the GM even a tiny bit of justification for doing so, that thing is weak enough that it's absolutely going to die. Keep your tiny friend away from things that can kill it."
In such case, I would be looking for a utility ally and the holy cat seems to be the better option here. Telepathy can be hilarious for in-game trolling, I've done that a few times with summoned Pseudodragons on other characters, but oh well.
The one thing I do wonder about though is overcoming the lack of See Invisibility. How big a deal is that? All my previous characters who had Glitterdust also had See Invis. In theory, glitterdust the square the invisible attacker is in, but... how easy is it to figure out, within a 10 foot radius, where they are in order to do that? EDIT: Otherwise I can pick it up at later levels via Spell Blending Arcana. This is one way to get See Invisibility, but I'd have to ditch Resist Energy to do it. (My other slot in the arcana, Burst of Radiance, is spoken for)
This is the sole concern keeping me thinking about the Pseudodragon (and a Bat in earlier levels). Otherwise I'd be glad to go for more fun options.
It's not something I'm wild on. Most things at level 7+ are going to mulch a Pseudodragon. At least that's what the numbers tell me. Am I wrong?
Also, it's my experience some GMs get really pissy about your Familiar fighting and will go out of their way to kill it afterward. I suspect they've run into Familiars that use lots of combat wands, burning gaze spells, etc.
This kind of extreme reaction to combat familiars has admittedly discouraged me from doing more than token experiments with them, so it's possible I'm working from a very flawed data set and maybe most GMs are okay with Pseudodragons fighting. Maybe they hold up decently well at it. If so, let me know? I admit a lot of my play experience has been in very... bizarre environments.
I won't go out of my way to kill a familiar, but if one engages in combat, with a meaningful impact, and is a softer target than the owner, opponents will attack it.
Combat wands and Burning Gaze will almost certainly fall in that category.
Agreed! That general line of thinking is why I won't be sending mine into combat, but the idea was at least worth exploring to learn more.
So, upon further research it turns out the DC to figure out an invisible enemy's location will be around DC 20-ish if they're actively doing stuff in the fight. I'm actually willing to say there's a good chance my Magus can make DC 20 by the time it becomes relevant and if they can't their familiar surely can.
If the foe isn't moving or doing stuff, it's DC 40... but if they're not doing stuff, okay. I'll let them have first-strike advantage. Having a more flexible Familiar may be worth losing Blindsense 12 Squares Range.
I wanted to discuss Familiars for a bit. Let's presume PFS, where they clamp down significantly on letting Familiars be combat-viable wand wielders and so on.
Take a Nycar, give him a regeneration ring and you have the best tank ever... ;)
That does sound kind of fun. Limited to CN Alignment and thus not suitable for my build, but perhaps others can make use of the idea.
I'd been misreading the Invisibility rules all along, I thought the DC to find an active invisible foe was DC 40, not 20. That makes the entire question moot in my case, the Silvanshee is clearly the way to go for a NG Magus.
One "Sorta" nifty feature of the Nature bonded Magus is that you can give the plant familiar the protector archetype. This wouldn't be necessarily as good as the old tumor familiar combo with alchemist, but you do get the trade off of the plant effectively doubling your HP.
You only seem to loose out on the bodyguard portion of the archetype, while it seems the shield other portion is still valid.
Not saying it's great, but it's something.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Take a Nycar, give him a regeneration ring and you have the best tank ever... ;)
Why, because he has DR/5 and regenerates one point per round? I'm not sure how that makes him a good tank, he's still got mediocre defenses and poor damage.
One "Sorta" nifty feature of the Nature bonded Magus is that you can give the plant familiar the protector archetype.
Any familiar can get the protector archetype, you don't need a plant familiar to use that.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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The one thing I do wonder about though is overcoming the lack of See Invisibility. How big a deal is that? All my previous characters who had Glitterdust also had See Invis.
I find See Invis to be mostly redundant with Glitterdust. You generally have an idea where the enemy is, or if not you can ready a Glitterdust until the enemy does something (which will generally make his position pretty clear).
Hi Kurald, wanted to let you know about a bit of obsolete content in your guide. Your entry for Scorching Ray notes it's not significantly better than Intensified Snowball. This remark was written before Snowball's nerf, I'm certain it was.
Now an Intensified Snowball is strictly inferior to Scorching Ray unless Damage Type matters. Now, if it does then 10d6 Cold for a Level 2 slot isn't bad (not great, but not bad). Otherwise I'd rather take 12d6 Fire.
At the bare minimum I suspect the text for Scorching Ray needs updating, and I think I can make a decent argument that it's now 'Green rating' instead of orange; it no longer has a meaningful competitor for medium range damage in its level or from level 1 spells.
After all, Intensified Snowball is inferior aside from damage type variation. Intensified Magic Missile is nonsensical. Intensified Burning Hands is 10d4 small-cone Fire, which is useful in some cases but doesn't do quite the same job as Scorching Ray (a range of 15 Foot Cone is purely a close combat move, while Scorching Ray would reach out to 50 feet). None of the level 2 options scale as well as Scorching Ray does.
Arguably the only thing better than Scorching Ray at that point would be Admonishing Ray, which would require spending an Arcana option to pick up.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Added Wave Form, Forced Mutation, and Hellfire Ray spells; Agent of Chance and Scamper traits; Collar of Sacrifice and Tamer's Lash items; Bedrock bloodline (since a new feat lets you take mutated bloodlines similar to eldritch heritage). Based on discussion earlier, I do agree Magic Missile should be green, because of the tactical usefulness of a guaranteed hit.
At the bare minimum I suspect the text for Scorching Ray needs updating, and I think I can make a decent argument that it's now 'Green rating' instead of orange; it no longer has a meaningful competitor for medium range damage in its level or from level 1 spells.
Thanks, it definitely needs an update. I've been comparing the Magus's single-target artillery spells and I note that very little actually deals more damage than a Scorching Ray; it beats all your 4th level spells; when you're level 13 even your fifth level spells deal only 1d6 more; and even at level 16 nothing beats an Empowered Scorch (4th level slot) except for the Hellfire Ray (6th level slot). So yeah, it's pretty good.
I have a minor nitpick for the Magic Missile entry. Right now it still reads "Magic Missile (Wand)" (emphasis mine). It's true that a Magic Missile Wand might make a cute token ranged option for 750 GP at later levels, I agree with that. However, the way it's written with (Wand) in there makes it seem like its primary value is as a wand.
In light of all the recent changes, I think '(Wand)' should be removed to denote its value as a memorization since that's how you keep its damage on scale with rising enemy HP totals.
One "Sorta" nifty feature of the Nature bonded Magus is that you can give the plant familiar the protector archetype.Any familiar can get the protector archetype, you don't need a plant familiar to use that.
The one thing that the Nature bonded Magus has over other familiar granting archetypes is that, the familiar cannot be targeted or harmed while bonded, which allows you to more easily reap the benefits of the archetype because enemies can't just go after the familiar or use multi target spells.
Granted I didn't know that the "bond with familiar?" Spell was in Ultimate Wilderness so that probably makes my whole argument moot.
Kurald: Thank you, the update to Magic Missile looks good.
Stargazer remarks: I'd like to take a moment to build on your points in the Stargazer (PRC) section, too. First off, thanks for pointing out it exists! I had no idea until you mentioned it.
There's actually a few other really strong hexes available this way that weren't mentioned in the guide. In addition to some good Witch hexes (Water Lung, along with the ones you mentioned)... there's a Shaman Heaven's Hex called Heaven's Leap. It's really nice, giving yourself or an ally a 30 foot teleport. Everyone on your team can benefit from it once per day.
If someone is stuck in a bad place but you still have LOS to them (such as the edge of a Stinking Cloud), Heaven's Leap lets you yank them out. If they want to Full Attack in melee but aren't quite in range, you can drop them close enough to do it. Unconscious allies can be yoinked over to someone who can help them. Trapped in a Resilient Sphere? Not anymore.
This costs you a point of BAB, 1 HP, 1 fort save point and a Favored Class Bonus (dipping Stargazer instead of continuing a Magus level)... but there are points where this may be worth doing. Going Magus 9/Stargazer 1 may be better if Magus 10's fighter training has nothing you want, for example.
I'm strongly considering reworking my PFS-legal Bard 1 / Magus 10 build to instead be Bard 1 / Magus 9 / Stargazer 1.
The only downside to doing so is this would require a deity shift from Sarenrae (losing access to Shield of the Dawnflower) to Pulara. This kind of sucks, since Shield of the Dawnflower is a great Magus spell.
...Worse, I'd have to free up two feat slots in my build. I think I just shot down my own idea, leading to a realization that...
Regarding Dawnflower Dervish: ...I feel like this is being undervalued, that it's actually a solid Green option for a Dex-based Magus. You effectively gain two free feats (avoiding having to take Weapon Finesse, then getting Dervish Dance for free), or one free feat and 'no feat tax' on it. Granted, you might want Weapon Finesse anyway for Touch Spells and backup weapons. Regardless, it's the difference between attacking for 1d6+3 or 1d6+4 at levels 1 and 2, or 1d6+0 or even 1d6-1 or 1d6-2 depending on how severe your build is on dumping Str. That's a roughly 50% drop in damage output at the levels where it matters most. The feat slots you save this way can go to other things a Magus needs, like Combat Casting or Weapon Focus.
Additionally, you gain several useful things from this dip. You can use CLW out of a Wand (sure, Infernal Healing is better but it's an Evil spell; there are several reasons a Magus might refuse to use it even though PFS allows it) without UMD checks. You also gain some decent social skills, plus Perception and all Knowledges.
I grant that the self-buff via dancing won't be much use after the first few levels, but that's okay. You still benefit from the spells, gaining 4 more L0s/Cantrips. Along with the usual suspects, Summon Instrument and Mending are decent choices. Among the Level 1s... there are some that are worth grabbing and using even at high levels. Grease is one, two thirds of its benefits still reliably work even if opponents have high Reflex saves. Expeditious Retreat isn't bad. Remove Fear has its uses too. Solid Note has some creative value, and even Cure Light Wounds isn't a terrible choice for emergencies.
Granted, this comes at a cost. You'd need the Magical Knack trait (or else be okay with a reduced Caster Level), lose 1 class level's worth of favored options, a point of BAB, a bit of Fort save, and need Cha 11 to use the spells.
Still, I think it's a genuinely strong option. You take a modest cut to combat effectiveness but in return gain a lot of utility and save some feat slots.
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Dragonborn3: I find it very fitting your devilishly clever idea is post 666 in this thread. Just sayin'!
Been a few days, so I'm well past my edit window to add something new.
I want to toss up a hypothetical memorization list for a level 11 PFS Dex Magus, and see if folks see any room to improve it. Presume this is a Bard (Dervish Dancer) 1 / Magus (Hexcrafter) 10.
Bard Spells (Caster Level 1):
Cantrips: Dancing Lights, Grasp, Prestidigitation, Summon Instrument
(Grasp is there due to being present at level 1 and not getting any obvious chance to retrain it that I'm aware of)
1 (2/day from Bard class level plus Cha 12): Cure Light Wounds, Grease
(CLW is there due to not getting any obvious retrain opportunity I'm aware of; it would be in the build from level 1)
Hexcrafter spells/equivalents (Caster level 11 via Trait use):
At-Will: Feather Fall (Self-only)
1-day: Levitate (Self only)
11 Minutes/day: Fly, allocated in 1 minute increments.
Hex, one per recipient per day: Healing (as Cure Moderate Wounds)
Magus spells (caster level 11 via Trait use):
Cantrips: Acid Splash, Brand, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Spark.
1 (6 per day, as 5+1 per day): 1x Burning Hands, 1x Frostbite, 2x Magic Missile, 1x Shield, 1x (Intensified) Shocking Grasp.
Various Pearls of Power on hand to recharge these.
2: (5 per day, as 4+1 per day): 1x Burst of Radiance (Spell Blending used), 1x Glitterdust, 1x Mirror Image, 1x Resist Energy (Spell Blending used), 1x Scorching Ray.
3: (4 per day, as 3+1 per day): 1x Intensified Burst of Radiance (again, Spell Blending), 1x Fireball, 1x Heroism (Spell Blending used), 1x Storm Step.
4 (2 per day, as 1 + 1 per day): 1x Shield of the Dawnflower (Sarenrae worship required, this is fine), 1x Wall of Ice
I think the above set does a good mix of close and long range fighting, has a few 'control options', a few defense and hit-rate buffs, and a bit of healing and mobility too. Nonetheless, I'd welcome any suggestions on refining it!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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The one thing that the Nature bonded Magus has over other familiar granting archetypes is that, the familiar cannot be targeted or harmed while bonded
There's a cheap item for that, the familiar pouch.
Stargazer remarks: I'd like to take a moment to build on your points in the Stargazer (PRC) section, too. First off, thanks for pointing out it exists! I had no idea until you mentioned it.
I agree that Heaven's Leap is a good hex. It's one of the reasons this is one of the best prestige classes for the Magus. It is not, however, legal in PFS. Note that you can pull the same trick by moving up to your ally, then Dimension Door'ing both of you backwards.
The only downside to doing so is this would require a deity shift from Sarenrae (losing access to Shield of the Dawnflower) to Pulara.
An arcane caster does not need to worship a deity to gain spells that belong to that deity, as he can simply learn them from a book somewhere.
Regarding Dawnflower Dervish: ...I feel like this is being undervalued,
As you say, the main reason for taking this dip is to get two feats for free. At low level this is very good. At moderate level you should have plenty of feat slots to take these the normal way, which makes the dip obsolete. I don't see CLW as a big bonus; what matter is that someone in the party can use CLW wands, not that everyone in the party can use them.
Summon Instrument + Catch Off-Guard + Spell Combat and Spellstrike....
Eeeeelllll Kabong!
LOL!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I want to toss up a hypothetical memorization list for a level 11 PFS Dex Magus, and see if folks see any room to improve it. Presume this is a Bard (Dervish Dancer) 1 / Magus (Hexcrafter) 10.
Your save DC on bard spells is probably going to be low, so I'd suggest putting Grease on the Magus side. Note that you can retrain spells with the retraining rules (for 50 gp x your level, and 5 prestige).
Actually with so many damage spells I'd recommend a dip in sorcerer (orc bloodline) instead of bard. I think your spell list is fine, except that I would prepare a couple extra defense spells, e.g. mirror image or displacement or even vanish. I generally put up a defense on the first round in every combat.
...Fascinating stuff.
An arcane caster does not need to worship a deity to gain spells that belong to that deity, as he can simply learn them from a book somewhere.
Can I get a citation on this? It would be a massive increase in spell variety for a lot of classes if so, but... I look at that, compared to this footnote on Archives of Nethys: "Spell requires a requisite religion or race. If religion, spellcaster must worship the listed deity to utilize the spell."
On feats: I suppose a pure damage-oriented caster might have the feat slots to pick up Finesse and Dervish, but I'm having trouble finding it on a more versatile build. Imagine a feat set like this: Combat Casting (L1), Weapon Focus Scimitar (L3), Extra Arcana (L5), Intensified Spell (Magus 5 Bonus at L6), Improved Familiar (L7), Spell Penetration (L9), Greater Spell Penetration (L11).
Those all strike me as necessary feats, where would I find room to avoid having Combat Casting at L1? I could perhaps free up a Trait slot by no longer needing Magical Knack, but... that's only a partial fix.
On Heaven's Leap in PFS: Huh, that's not legal? Nethys has it marked as such, and a look through the legal resources list doesn't suggest otherwise. It looks legal to me?
On an Orc dip: Definitely an optimizing move, but one I can't really fit on my character concept (they're an elf, I'm not taking Orc bloodline for that). Now, what I could do is pick a similar bloodline such as Solar. That might work.
In any case, thanks for your replies!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Heaven's Leap is legal, Stargazer is not. Regarding deity-specific spells, the book Inner Sea Gods states on page 228 that "all the spells in this chapter are available to members of other faiths, though some temples or religious organizations may proscribe the use of specific spells."
Imagine a feat set like this: Combat Casting (L1), Weapon Focus Scimitar (L3), Extra Arcana (L5), Intensified Spell (Magus 5 Bonus at L6), Improved Familiar (L7), Spell Penetration (L9), Greater Spell Penetration (L11).
Well, delaying your spell access by one level isn't very nice, it means you'll be unable to use (what would normally be) your highest-level spells for one-third of the campaign.
I don't see the point of weapon focus, and I think having both SP and GSP is overkill (unless your entire build is about spamming Shocking Grasp). If you use self-buffs or no-SR spells then you don't need those. Finally, you can use 5-step-tactics and/or defensive spells to negate the need for Combat Casting.
For example, an entirely viable build would be 1.Weapon Finesse, 3.Dervish Dance, 5.Extra Arcana + Intensify, 7.Imp Familiar, 9.Step Up, 11.Spell Blending. $.02
Heaven's Leap is legal, Stargazer is not.
...Either I was really, really tired when I was reading that class on Nethys, or the legality changed. I'm inclined to believe "I was tired and overlooked that" is true. Thank you for catching this, that saves a lot of agonizing over builds for me!
Regarding deity-specific spells, the book Inner Sea Gods states on page 228 that "all the spells in this chapter are available to members of other faiths, though some temples or religious organizations may proscribe the use of specific spells."
That clearly works for ISG then, and that's cool to know. However, Shield of the Dawnflower is from Inner Sea World Guide which isn't the same thing as Inner Sea Gods (right?). ISG has a Greater version of it, but Greater is not the same as Regular for this purpose insofar as I can tell. If I'm wrong, this actually helps since I could switch deity to Yuelral and pick up a Trait of hers I rather like (the +1 vs SR one).
Well, delaying your spell access by one level isn't very nice,
Point conceded. I may rebuild and use Items to make up for some of the Skills I wanted bonuses on.
I don't see the point of weapon focus,
Accuracy, mostly. a 3/4th BAB class can use help in this regard.
and I think having both SP and GSP is overkill (unless your entire build is about spamming Shocking Grasp).
Actually the opposite; Shocking Grasp is merely one aspect of it. I'm more interested in a well-rounded 'Red Mage' (Final Fantasy parlance) character who can do ranged attack magic and melee, with a bit of healing to boot.
Finally, you can use 5-step-tactics to negate the need for Combat Casting.
How would this work with Touch spells like Brand? Would I be able to cast Brand first, then 5' step in and make the full set of attacks?
(A feat list you suggested)
I like it. I'm going to make some adjustments, but I like the overall idea you've presented. Thanks again!
Well, that solves that problem.
This just leaves Shield of the Dawnflower. While the Greater version clearly works just as you say, the regular one appears to be Religion-locked since it's from another book that doesn't have that "open to other faiths" thing.
Bah, I'm outside the edit window again. I wanted to discuss Arcane Strike, as I think people are being too hard on it.
It's true that you'll sometimes have something better to do with your Swift action. Arcane Accuracy is one possibility. Getting your Arcane Pool weapon enhancement going is a no-brainer.
However, your Pool isn't unlimited. A typical Magus will have about 9 points at levels 9-11. Let's say roughly half that (3 to 5 points) goes to pool enhancements, leaving you about that much left to use on other purposes like Arcane Accuracy and so on.
It's very possible to run out, or to realize you have no reason to spend points this round. In those cases, I'd think picking up a free +1 to +3 damage would be a pretty smart use of your Swift action and that while this might not be a "do it all the time" option... it seems like a reasonable choice?
What am I missing, that it would be rated Red?
Bah, I'm outside the edit window again. I wanted to discuss Arcane Strike, as I think people are being too hard on it.
It's true that you'll sometimes have something better to do with your Swift action. Arcane Accuracy is one possibility. Getting your Arcane Pool weapon enhancement going is a no-brainer.
However, your Pool isn't unlimited. A typical Magus will have about 9 points at levels 9-11. Let's say roughly half that (3 to 5 points) goes to pool enhancements, leaving you about that much left to use on other purposes like Arcane Accuracy and so on.
It's very possible to run out, or to realize you have no reason to spend points this round. In those cases, I'd think picking up a free +1 to +3 damage would be a pretty smart use of your Swift action and that while this might not be a "do it all the time" option... it seems like a reasonable choice?
What am I missing, that it would be rated Red?
Well let's break it down then.
As you've stated the use for it is "when you have nothing better to do" and that means that the fight has been decided and you're cleaning up.So let's say we use it 20% of combat rounds
Now let's see what it does, it would take our 100 damage and turn it into 106, is that 6 damage making a difference? Let's say it is making the difference 10% of the time.
So we have 20% of rounds having a meaningful effect 10% of the time means it's useful 2% of the time. A feat that is helpful 2% of the time is not a highly rated feat.
Now yes the numbers aren't accurate, but they are likely close enough to prove the point.
(Now I plan on taking it with my magus, but my magus plan is using lots of RED options because of the vision I'm going for and I'll probably have like 5 mental focus at lv9)
Those numbers feel incomplete. What level of character are we talking about here, and how are they doing that 100 damage a battle?
Those numbers feel incomplete. What level of character are we talking about here, and how are they doing that 100 damage a battle?
Now yes the numbers aren't accurate, but they are likely close enough to prove the point.
Drop 100 to 60, 80 or 200 whatever is normal for your game and level and the point is still there. Arcane strike only adds a little damage and you do lots of damage already, is that little more being useful? Sure sometimes, but how much is sometimes? Well that's hard to figure, but even 50% (which seems way too high that the arcane strike damage made the difference) if you only use it 1/5 rounds because you have better stuff to use and you're looking at a feat that is being useful 1/10 rounds. A feat that is hard to recommend as a good feat.
We must be looking at very different builds. For most of what I've been looking at, Arcane Strike would come up most of the time. Once you've got your weapon enchanted, it seems like most other rounds will be free to use Arcane Strike since you won't always need accuracy boosts (flanking and other help from allies can usually make up the difference, in my time with various Fighters and similar builds).
I'm not discounting your numbers outright, but it looks like we're approaching this class very differently.
We must be looking at very different builds. For most of what I've been looking at, Arcane Strike would come up most of the time. Once you've got your weapon enchanted, it seems like most other rounds will be free to use Arcane Strike since you won't always need accuracy boosts (flanking and other help from allies can usually make up the difference, in my time with various Fighters and similar builds).
I'm not discounting your numbers outright, but it looks like we're approaching this class very differently.
I was basing it off of the point that it was competing for swift actions like arcane accuracy, and since that's better and making a difference I assumed AS was for rounds that weren't using that.
But still even if it's used in 60% of rounds, how often is that much damage making the difference? If half the time that's still a feat that is useful 30% of the time. Now a feat that is useful 30% of the time has some stiff competition with extra pool points, extra arcana, metamagic, all the time combat feats, etc.
But hey, do you have a support or evidence like this to show why it's better than red for general magus builds? He's been convinced by some people laying down a solid argument that something was deserving of a higher rating.
(as I said before, I like it and it's useful on some less-optimal builds, but for a general guide I see why it's not highly rated. It's a little static bump of damage to a generally nova damage class.)
Kurald is indeed open to being convinced, and I've done it multiple times in this thread on some of the ranged-damage spells.
I just don't see a Magus using Arcane Accuracy every single round, or even 50% of the time. They'd run out of pool points quickly doing this.
That said, if Arcane Strike isn't worth it even if done 50% of the time then we may have a strong argument against the feat.
On another note, Kurald mentioned Step Up as a feat suggestion. I looked at it, and wonder if it's worthwhile without Disruptive to combo with it. It seems like at level 11, you'd find most enemies can defensively make DC 23 (15 + 8 for a level 4 spell doubled, I find this a reasonable benchmark) quite often if just Step Up is used. They'll have Caster Level 11, a casting attribute granting a +5 to +8 in all likelihood... plus whatever other misc. bonuses they might have.
...it feels like they'd just get the spell off anyway. Am I missing something here? If combined with Disruptive, then yes I'm easily convinced it's worthwhile. Step Up on its own, though? Can someone convince me of its value on a Dex Magus?
EDIT: I found a thread that does just that. Someone pointed out its value against archers and polearm fighters, as well as disrupting Flanks. I'd still love to hear some input on it in regard to messing up casters, as well as any other insights folks care to share about Step Up, though!
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It strikes me that Weapon Specialization will contribute more to your overall damage than Arcane Strike, as +2 damage all the time is simply better than +3 or +4 whenever you have a swift action to spare. And Weapon Spec already isn't a great pick.
Aside from enchanting your weapon, you could be using your swift for e.g. Hasted Assault; Spell Recall; Lingering Pain; Step Up; any quickened spell; drawing an item from spring sheaths; plus magical items like a Blood Scarab, Buffering Cap, or Spell Storing weapon or armor. So in my experience having an open swift action happens less than 20% of the time.
Regarding Step Up, I note that your 11th level caster is casting a 4th level spell with about 20% chance of failure. If you wouldn't have the feat, he'd be casting a sixth level spell with a zero chance of failure. So that's a clear win. Moreover, you can counter archers, since most archers have no way of "shooting defensively". Finally, a lot of monsters have spell-like abilities with a markedly lower caster level (e.g. royal naga is CL 9 for a CR 11 monster) or concentration check (e.g. meladaemon has +15 conc, and his best SLA is DC 31 to cast defensively!)
In addition, Step Up is simply hilarious: "I step away!" - "No you don't!" :D
Well let's break it down then.
As you've stated the use for it is "when you have nothing better to do" and that means that the fight has been decided and you're cleaning up.So let's say we use it 20% of combat rounds
Now let's see what it does, it would take our 100 damage and turn it into 106, is that 6 damage making a difference? Let's say it is making the difference 10% of the time.
So we have 20% of rounds having a meaningful effect 10% of the time means it's useful 2% of the time. A feat that is helpful 2% of the time is not a highly rated feat.
Now yes the numbers aren't accurate, but they are likely close enough to prove the point.
Your numbers don't even come close to matching my gameplay.
As an 11th level bladebound kensai, the only round I did not use Arcane Strike was the first round of combat, when I was using Arcane Pool to boost my weapon.
That's +3 damage/attack, 4 attacks/round, .3 crit chance, or ~16 DPR
Trust me, it made a difference way more than 20% of the time.
Yes, you can :)Finally, you can use 5-step-tactics to negate the need for Combat Casting.How would this work with Touch spells like Brand? Would I be able to cast Brand first, then 5' step in and make the full set of attacks?
That's great for round 1 but what about round 2? What about monsters with reach?
...Very good answers, thank you! With those items, I am forced to accept that while Arcane Strike might not be garbage... I can sure as hell do a lot better. That Blood Scarab is kind of amazing.
I've also been sold on the value of Step Up. This finishes a build I was rather indecisive about; would attacking at +18/+13 at level 11 (as BAB 7/2, 6 Dex, 2 enchanted weapon, 3 arcane pool enhancement), or spellstriking at +16/+16/+11 be adequate at that level of play? If so, my build is done. If not, I need to find a way to get the attack bonus up some. Those numbers don't include Heroism, Dervish Dance, or Arcane Accuracy, which I have available already but only get limited uses of all of them.
If you're curious, the Feat list ended up being Combat Casting, Step Up, Flight Hex via Hexcrafter (Arcana slot, not feat slot), Extra Arcana: Healing Hex via Hexcrafter, Intensified Spell (Magus 5 Bonus), Improved Familiar, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration. It might be overkill on the vs. SR front, but that's one of those things I want to 'overkill' and feel no guilt about. At later levels, can retrain Combat Casting for Additional Traits.
I ended up keeping the Bard level (running Dervish Dancer 1 / Hexcrafter 10), as I've played at way too many tables where 'my character happens to be able to use CLW Wands' is the sole source of healing anyone in the group brings. Ditto for social skills and a variety of other unusual skills. I simply feel like I'd be doing most PFS tables a disservice if I don't pack these in to the build, even if it costs a point of BAB and some spell growth. Thank you for outlining a very good case for what I'm missing out on though, as you made a compelling argument. It's one I only rejected in the end because I really, really care about versatility.
Well let's break it down then.
As you've stated the use for it is "when you have nothing better to do" and that means that the fight has been decided and you're cleaning up.So let's say we use it 20% of combat rounds
Now let's see what it does, it would take our 100 damage and turn it into 106, is that 6 damage making a difference? Let's say it is making the difference 10% of the time.
So we have 20% of rounds having a meaningful effect 10% of the time means it's useful 2% of the time. A feat that is helpful 2% of the time is not a highly rated feat.
Now yes the numbers aren't accurate, but they are likely close enough to prove the point.
Your numbers don't even come close to matching my gameplay.
As an 11th level bladebound kensai, the only round I did not use Arcane Strike was the first round of combat, when I was using Arcane Pool to boost my weapon.
That's +3 damage/attack, 4 attacks/round, .3 crit chance, or ~16 DPR
Trust me, it made a difference way more than 20% of the time.
Bigger numbers, doesn't necessarily mean more of a difference.
Difference, essentially, is killing an opponent in less rounds, enabling you to do something else. Killing something in 7 attacks instead of 8 at 4 atk/end isn't really making a diffe rence.
I view it as appropriatEly rated. The need to spend pool points makes it rather like a consumable buff, which id rather buy than spend feats on
Well let's break it down then.
As you've stated the use for it is "when you have nothing better to do" and that means that the fight has been decided and you're cleaning up.So let's say we use it 20% of combat rounds
Now let's see what it does, it would take our 100 damage and turn it into 106, is that 6 damage making a difference? Let's say it is making the difference 10% of the time.
So we have 20% of rounds having a meaningful effect 10% of the time means it's useful 2% of the time. A feat that is helpful 2% of the time is not a highly rated feat.
Now yes the numbers aren't accurate, but they are likely close enough to prove the point.
Your numbers don't even come close to matching my gameplay.
As an 11th level bladebound kensai, the only round I did not use Arcane Strike was the first round of combat, when I was using Arcane Pool to boost my weapon.
That's +3 damage/attack, 4 attacks/round, .3 crit chance, or ~16 DPR
Trust me, it made a difference way more than 20% of the time.
It doesn't come close to matching YOUR gameplay. But like I said before, there are builds that will get more use of it, and you have one of those. Bladebound gets less arcane pool points and less arcana, meaning that they'll be using arcane pool even less than a normal magus. But as Kurald Galain pointed out, there are lots of things the magus could be using his swift action for AND better feats to be choosing for most magi.
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That's great for round 1 but what about round 2? What about monsters with reach?Yes, you can :)Finally, you can use 5-step-tactics to negate the need for Combat Casting.How would this work with Touch spells like Brand? Would I be able to cast Brand first, then 5' step in and make the full set of attacks?
On round two, if that enemy isn't dead after eating two of your full attacks, you either 5' back and cast a buff or ranged spell; or you defensively cast a cantrip (which will almost always pass the check, and not cost you anything if it doesn't).
Against reach enemies, good counters include the Longarm and Bladed Dash spells. Or, put up Mirror Image or Greater Invis and don't cast defensively, because the enemy isn't likely to hit you with his OA. Combat Casting is by no means a trap feat but neither is it essential to any Magus.
(Forgive me, I may be treading old ground here. I cannot find my old posts on the topic if I ever did discuss it though, and my memory's basically shot from months of 80-90 hour work weeks; I truly cannot recall whether I discussed this with any of you or just imagined I did. If it is a repeat, I promise this will be the last time I ask.)
How much HP is 'enough' on a Magus? I've got a Level 11 build that has about 84 HP, calculated as...
L1 (Bard Dawnflower Dervish): 10, as 8 Class Max L1 + 2 Con (Con 14).
L2-3: 16, as 5 Class Avg + 2 Con + 1 Favored Class Option (fav. class is Magus/Hexcrafter), twice (8 x 2 = 16)
L4-9: 42, as 5 Class avg + 2 Con, taken six times (7 x 6 = 42)
L10-11: 16, using the same stuff as L2-3.
Thus 10 + 16 + 42 + 16 = 84
If you're curious, L4-9 are spent getting a new Arcana from favored class bonuses. I could drop this for 6 more HP, but I love Burst of Radiance and this is how I was able to fit it in via Spell Blending Arcana.
This leaves me at 84. I can get 95 if I pick up the +2 Con ioun stone, but this omits Blind Fight via the stone that grants it with Wayfinder Resonance.
Is 84 HP enough (presume 2x Mirror Image a day and a Vanish casting as well) on AC approx. 22 (10 Base, 6 Dex, 5 Armor, possible other +1 or 2 lying around) or would I need to get 95 in order to be viable?
The various d8 HD PFS pre-gens have comparable HP, but I've heard generally unkind things about how viable the pre-gens really are past level 3 or so.
Bigger numbers, doesn't necessarily mean more of a difference.
Difference, essentially, is killing an opponent in less rounds, enabling you to do something else. Killing something in 7 attacks instead of 8 at 4 atk/end isn't really making a diffe rence.
I view it as appropriatEly rated. The need to spend pool points makes it rather like a consumable buff, which id rather buy than spend feats on
~31 points of damage over 2 rounds is often the difference between 2 rounds of combat and 3.
Against anything other than the BBG, the difference between 110 and 126 points of damage is often the difference between 1 and 2 rounds of combat.
Even if you kill your target on swing 7 instead of swing 8, it leaves you open to cast Bladed Dash and engage a second opponent vs. casting a touch spell on the opponent you just barely failed to finish off.
Is 84 HP enough (presume 2x Mirror Image a day and a Vanish casting as well) on AC approx. 22 (10 Base, 6 Dex, 5 Armor, possible other +1 or 2 lying around) or would I need to get 95 in order to be viable?
An AC of 22 is very low at this level. Pretty much everything is going to be hitting you with every attack.
I usually tried to maintain an AC in the low to mid 30's at this point, plus Mirror Image, plus Non Detection, plus the ability to bump my AC into the low 40's vs. particularly strong opponents.
Greater Invisibility + Non Detection was available for the most dangerous opponents.
If you are already taking a level of Dawnflower Dervish, you have shield proficiency. Consider investing in Unhindering Shield. A +3 buckler is a bargain at this level and grants an extra 5 AC. As you go up in level, this goes to +7 AC and gives the option for additional armor enhancements.
Hm. Okay, how would I get my AC up? I've got the Mirror Image part. I could probably get AC up a bit higher via Shield Wand use (esp. since the Familiar could retrieve the Wand afterward), putting it in the 26 range, but what else am I missing?
EDIT: And would that be sufficient to offset HP issues, or do I need to consider 84 'too low' on the HP front no matter the AC?
Is 84 HP enough (presume 2x Mirror Image a day and a Vanish casting as well) on AC approx. 22 (10 Base, 6 Dex, 5 Armor, possible other +1 or 2 lying around) or would I need to get 95 in order to be viable?
The various d8 HD PFS pre-gens have comparable HP, but I've heard generally unkind things about how viable the pre-gens really are past level 3 or so.
Like you're seeing 84 is a good average HP for a d8 planning on melee. The pregen's get far more trash-talk than they deserve.
Now since your AC is garbage though that means HP is less effective and you'd either need a bunch more HP or AC(this really means general avoidance of hits) to survive. With such low AC mirror image will be popping on almost every attack and so if enemies have 4-5 attacks they won't last all that long.
Alright, so 84 HP is adequate if I get my AC up. How do I do that? Most of my experience is playing full casters who didn't care about AC much beyond the first few levels. My starting point is...
Base 10
Dex 6 or 7 (Dex score of 22 or 24 via +Dex items and such)
Armor 5 or 6-ish (let's say any of the higher end Light or Medium armors given some magical +s.)
Shield Wand (Spring sheath to get it in hand ASAP. Cast at start of fight while Arcane Pool'ing weapon. Familiar retrieves it after it's dropped at start of fight)
So that gets me around roughly 26-27ish.
What more can I do to improve this?
Hm. Okay, how would I get my AC up? I've got the Mirror Image part. I could probably get AC up a bit higher via Shield Wand use (esp. since the Familiar could retrieve the Wand afterward), putting it in the 26 range, but what else am I missing?
EDIT: And would that be sufficient to offset HP issues, or do I need to consider 84 'too low' on the HP front no matter the AC?
When we finished the campaign my last magus (12th level) had:
10 +9 dex, +4 AC (mage armor), +6 shield, +6 dodge, +2 deflection, +2 natural, +1 insight = 40 AC / 28 t / 25 f
Elemental Body II gave an additional +2 dex, +3 natural
Stoneskin gave DR10/admantine
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Alright, so 84 HP is adequate if I get my AC up. How do I do that? Most of my experience is playing full casters who didn't care about AC much beyond the first few levels. My starting point is...
Displacement, Greater Invis, and Stoneskin are good options.
I think with 26-27ish you'll be fine; almost all frontliners I've played with around level twelve had AC around this range. Making a character (near-) unhittable is fun but by no means necessary.
Can you break it down for me? How'd you get +6 Shield? +6 Dodge? The +2 Deflection I can guess (A ring of protection?) and the same for the +2 natural (Amulet of natural armor?), but the rest of these elude me. Same for the +1 Insight.
I may not be able to hit AC 40, my Magus doesn't have the spell slots to spare as they're built around Bard 1 (Dawnflower Dervish) / Magus (Hexcrafter) 10 and spends a fair bit of it on things like Mirror Image, Shocking Grasp, Burst of Radiance, Heroism, Frostbite, etc... but I'll clean up what I can.
EDIT: Thanks, Kurald. Looks like I just need to go for the remaining 'low lying fruit' (Ring of Protection, Armor bracers, etc.) to wring out a few more AC points in that case. So AC 26-28ish, HP 84ish looks viable, then? If so, this solves my last concern other than the hit-rate thing (I think +18/+13 or +16/+16/+11 while Spellstriking is okay, esp. since I can increase it with Heroism, Dancing, and Arcane Accuracy as is, but if I'm wrong I'd love to know about it now so I can correct it).
Otherwise, this really does look done. I've found a way to get the AC up, HP is acceptable, and picking up Blind-Fight fixes the last major hole I saw.
I really appreciate how much help everyone has offered, this really cleared things up for me!
Yes, for AC a general metric is,
Level +10 is hardly helpful
level +15 will block some attacks
level +20 is good AC blocking lots of attacks.
So having a 27 at lv12 is good enough AC.
As for your attacks the average LV12 enemy will have AC of 27 and a "boss" of CR +3 has average AC of 30.
That makes your attacks have a 60%/35% or 50%/50%/35% against a normal enemy.
Heroism adds 10% to those. But you will be missing a lot of your attacks with those numbers.
+8 bab +3 blade +2 arcane pool +5 dex
is this how you're reaching your 18?
Chess Pwn: True, but I'm not sure I see what else to toss in. Going straight-class Magus would add 1 more BAB, but guts my utility stuff.
There's an Ioun Stone that adds +1 attack, but this rules out the Blind-Fight ioun stone as a result and something tells me that's a very bad trade?
Weapon Focus Scimitar would help, but would require losing Step Up. I know this is a bad trade.
Arcane Accuracy helps, though I'd only get 3-5 uses of it a day. That will be enough for one fight.
Dancing will grant +2, but only for 4 rounds (technically 5, but one is spent just getting the stupid thing started). That's enough to cover most of a second fight.
I've already factored in Arcane Pool, running this as...
BAB +6/+1, +6 Dex, +2 Weapon, +3 Arcane Pool benefits. That's +17/+12, or +15/+15/+10 on Spellstrike.
It feels like I'm coming up a tad short. Any ideas for fixing this? Flanking obviously helps, and Heroism will last for a fight or two, but based on the math you're listing it sounds like I'm not quite where I need to be.
EDIT: Didn't see your second post. My breakdown is close to what you're saying, but my math is +6 BAB, +6 Dex, +2 Weapon, +3 Arcane Pool improvements to the weapon. Then -2/-2/-2 on spellstrike if used.