Michael Grate wrote: Cycada wrote: TOTAL 12d6+3d6+512, avg 564.5, crit 1,032.5
----------------------------------
Base 3d6 (large lance, impact, 19-20/x4 crit)
Mammoth hide +3d6...
Also, what is giving your lance a 4x critical multiplier? I'm assuming it's a lance charge with Spirited Charge with the 20th level Cavalier capstone ability.
Spirited Charge with a lance is 3x damage, and the capstone is 2x damage on the charge, which should result in 4x damage.
Michael Grate wrote: Cycada wrote: TOTAL 12d6+3d6+512, avg 564.5, crit 1,032.5
----------------------------------
Base 3d6 (large lance, impact, 19-20/x4 crit)
Mammoth hide +3d6...
Also, what is giving your lance a 4x critical multiplier? I accidentally looked at mythic improved critical feat. With this in mind, taking the improved critical feat does nothing. I will post a revised version of the build, taking both this and the FAQ on ability stacking into account.
The AoMF was kind of an afterthought. At +58, the charging Rider isn't going to miss a significant amount of the time anyway. Removing it completely does little more than reduce the to-hit value of the Rider by +2 (as I forgot to factor it in completely for the bear's bite). Thank you for calling out my mistake.
As you later discovered, the character is in fact a half-orc. The toothy trait is a racial trait, not a 'trait' as is defined separately by the rules. Paizo's choice to have both aspects of a character so closely named has likely led to confusion in other portions of the game as well.
As for using the charging trait, it wouldn't affect the overall damage of the build unless it applied a different kind of bonus. As it stands, the suggested charging trait would not stack with Dirty Fighter, and since this build utilizes attacks beyond the initial charge that still count as flanking, it is inferior. Good find, though.
Look for an updated build, with hopefully higher damage, shortly.
Michael Grate wrote:
thistledown wrote:
Hmm. This is an interesting one. I've never played PFS (in truth I'm a very new player who's addicted to the Min/Max). I'll have to look into build concepts for this.
As far as the belt and impact though, your doppelgänger posted about this and it seems to be a no. As far as replacing the saddle or a strength belt with this, I'm not so sure of how good of an option that would be. Since I don't think the charging benefits apply past the first attack (using a barbarians rage to get pounce and useing it mounted with spirited charge was denied for example)
The Belt of Thunderous Charging gives 2 STR (+1) and gives then damage of a weapon 1 size category large larger (+3.5 average dice roll). The total extra damage is 4
The STR belts give 6 STR (+3). The total extra damage is 3 which lower than the Thunderous charging belt, except that the strength is added twice (once from Mounted Mastery and once for the mounts own attack, it could be 4 times but the FAQ avr posted said no). PFS caps at around 90k gold. A +6 belt is workable, but more than a third of that. If you bought nothing else it'd be available at high level6, early 7. You might get it on mount or rider, but not both.
BTW, the other reason I like Axebeak in the comparison - free trip attempt on charge. So you and mount charge, it hopefully hits and trips, and you stab vs prone AC. The strength is a bit less though.
Cycada wrote: Michael Grate wrote: Cycada wrote: TOTAL 12d6+3d6+512, avg 564.5, crit 1,032.5
----------------------------------
Base 3d6 (large lance, impact, 19-20/x4 crit)
Mammoth hide +3d6...
Also, what is giving your lance a 4x critical multiplier? I accidentally looked at mythic improved critical feat. With this in mind, taking the improved critical feat does nothing. I will post a revised version of the build, taking both this and the FAQ on ability stacking into account.
The AoMF was kind of an afterthought. At +58, the charging Rider isn't going to miss a significant amount of the time anyway. Removing it completely does little more than reduce the to-hit value of the Rider by +2 (as I forgot to factor it in completely for the bear's bite). Thank you for calling out my mistake.
As you later discovered, the character is in fact a half-orc. The toothy trait is a racial trait, not a 'trait' as is defined separately by the rules. Paizo's choice to have both aspects of a character so closely named has likely led to confusion in other portions of the game as well.
As for using the charging trait, it wouldn't affect the overall damage of the build unless it applied a different kind of bonus. As it stands, the suggested charging trait would not stack with Dirty Fighter, and since this build utilizes attacks beyond the initial charge that still count as flanking, it is inferior. Good find, though.
Look for an updated build, with hopefully higher damage, shortly. I'd include into the build the Ring of terrible cost (+5 damage) and use a different mount (allosaurus). I'm not sure of what else to include along with this, good luck.
thistledown wrote: Michael Grate wrote:
thistledown wrote:
Hmm. This is an interesting one. I've never played PFS (in truth I'm a very new player who's addicted to the Min/Max). I'll have to look into build concepts for this.
As far as the belt and impact though, your doppelgänger posted about this and it seems to be a no. As far as replacing the saddle or a strength belt with this, I'm not so sure of how good of an option that would be. Since I don't think the charging benefits apply past the first attack (using a barbarians rage to get pounce and useing it mounted with spirited charge was denied for example)
The Belt of Thunderous Charging gives 2 STR (+1) and gives then damage of a weapon 1 size category large larger (+3.5 average dice roll). The total extra damage is 4
The STR belts give 6 STR (+3). The total extra damage is 3 which lower than the Thunderous charging belt, except that the strength is added twice (once from Mounted Mastery and once for the mounts own attack, it could be 4 times but the FAQ avr posted said no). PFS caps at around 90k gold. A +6 belt is workable, but more than a third of that. If you bought nothing else it'd be available at high level6, early 7. You might get it on mount or rider, but not both.
BTW, the other reason I like Axebeak in the comparison - free trip attempt on charge. So you and mount charge, it hopefully hits and trips, and you stab vs prone AC. The strength is a bit less though. That's right, mighty charge comes in exactly at level 11 and would require you to take the class all the way through. Also, dem caps. In that case the Thunderous charging belt would end up being better. I'll continue to look into this with this in mind.
thistledown wrote: Michael Grate wrote:
thistledown wrote:
Hmm. This is an interesting one. I've never played PFS (in truth I'm a very new player who's addicted to the Min/Max). I'll have to look into build concepts for this.
As far as the belt and impact though, your doppelgänger posted about this and it seems to be a no. As far as replacing the saddle or a strength belt with this, I'm not so sure of how good of an option that would be. Since I don't think the charging benefits apply past the first attack (using a barbarians rage to get pounce and useing it mounted with spirited charge was denied for example)
The Belt of Thunderous Charging gives 2 STR (+1) and gives then damage of a weapon 1 size category large larger (+3.5 average dice roll). The total extra damage is 4
The STR belts give 6 STR (+3). The total extra damage is 3 which lower than the Thunderous charging belt, except that the strength is added twice (once from Mounted Mastery and once for the mounts own attack, it could be 4 times but the FAQ avr posted said no). PFS caps at around 90k gold. A +6 belt is workable, but more than a third of that. If you bought nothing else it'd be available at high level6, early 7. You might get it on mount or rider, but not both.
BTW, the other reason I like Axebeak in the comparison - free trip attempt on charge. So you and mount charge, it hopefully hits and trips, and you stab vs prone AC. The strength is a bit less though. I forgot to mention before, the beast rider archetype (assuming I'm reading this right) increases your mounts damage dice by 1 die size at level 7 meaning the belt of Thunderous charging can't be used on the mount (again, I might be reading that wrong).
Cycada wrote: Base Stats: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 9, Cha 18
End Stats: Str 24 (+7), Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 9, Cha 28 (+9)
Feats: critical focus, improved critical (lance), weapon focus (lance), mounted combat, spirited charge, wild flanking, pack flanking, horde charge, snapping flank, horn of the criosphinx, ride-by attack, power attack, furious focus, spirit’s gift, evolved companion (bite), racial heritage (dwarf) (taken at 1st level),
Gear: +5 courageous impact mammoth lance, headband of cha +6, belt of str +6, mammoth hide, juggernaut's pauldrons, horsemaster’s saddle
I noticed one last issue here though it's an easy fix. For Pack Flanking you need an INT score of 13 so the Headband of CHA would have to be a CHA/INT headband to work
Charge based Cavalier (updated based on information from Cycada’s build and corrections)
Race-Anything that gives a racial charisma and/or strength boost.
Current starting race, Human.
Trait-Inspiring Rush
Racial Trait- Eye for Talent (STR)
Class-Cavalier
Archetype-Gendarme for a pure mounted charge build, Emissary for a little more mobility (note-I believe there was an errata at some point that stated that Erratic Charge should replace Master Tactician and not Supreme charge thus making this viable but consult your GM first to make sure they’ll allow it).
Along with this you should probably go Beast Rider as it will allow you to get a stronger mount but this depends on personal preference and campaign.
You’ve stated that you are looking to keep the tactician ability though so this build doesn’t include the Gendarme archetype.
Order- Order of the Sword-Probably the best option because of Mounted Mastery but that depends on how much stronger then you your mount is (If Mount STR+(2xPC STR)≥(2xMount STR) then use this Order, otherwise use the Order of the Cockatrice)
Order of the Cockatrice-Valid because it offers extra damage when threatening alone (mount not counted) as well as a similar level 15 bonus (A single round burst of everything whereas Knights challenge offers less for a longer period) but isn’t as good overall.
Order of the Flame-It’s Glorious Challenge is interesting and Foolhardy Rush helps quite a bit on charges but it doesn’t provide any damage boost like the two above.
Base stats (these are based on a 72 point system, adjust based on the stat system your game uses. The base stats can't go above 20 or below 7 but do include racial modifiers (Human, +2 Charisma)
Str-22 (+6)
Dex-14 (+2)
Con-10 (0)
Wis-9 (-1)
Int-7 (-2)
Cha-12 (+1)
End Game Stats (doesn’t include boosts from items)
Str-26 (+8)
Dex-14 (+2)
Con-10 (0)
Wis-10 (0)
Int-7 (-2)
Cha-12 (+1)
(If you are able to get the Mammoth Lance (see equipment below) then you can reallocate the STR points (base and level granted) into CON and CHA as you see fit. CHA for temporary damage additions, CON for HP)
(alternatively, you can go as a full glass cannon with the following stats. It’s not recommended, especially if you can get the Mammoth Lance, but it’s an option) (With human, use STR with this option)
Base
Str-22 (+6)
Dex-8 (-1)
Con-8 (-1)
Wis-9 (-1)
Int-7 (-2)
Cha-20 (+5)
End Game
Str-26 (+8)
Dex-8 (-1)
Con-8 (-1)
Wis-10 (0)
Int-7 (-2)
Cha-20 (+5)
Take the Favored Class bonus each level for a total of +10 on your challenge damage at level 20.
Feats-13 total (note-These feats are not in order and the order will depend partly on your individual playstyle)
Racial Heritage (dwarf)
Mounted Combat
Ride-by attack
Wheeling Charge
Spirited Charge
Horn of Criosphinx
Power attack
Furious Focus
Spirits gift (Mammoth)
Weapon Focus (Lance)
Critical Focus
Bleeding Critical
Trample, Mounted Blade or Evolved Companion (bite) (The first is useful if you need to make overrun attempts a lot to get to the BBEG, the second is useful if you encounter a lot of grouped enemies or multiple BBEG and the third is useful for most other situations, choose accordingly)
Teamwork feats gained by Tactician
Escape route
Distracting Charge
Any (Coordinated Charge if your allies tend to charge as well)
Mount
Allosaurus
Archetype-Charger
Feats:
Power Attack
Charge Through
Improved Overrun
Greater Overrun
Improved Natural Attack (2 Claws)
Weapon Focus (Natural attack) or Furious Focus
Improved Natural Attack (Bite)
Extra Item Slot (body)
Put all level up ability points into STR
(equipment can alter greatly depending on how generous or stingy your GM is. Some pieces of equipment are more important than others so make the best judgment call depending on your game)
Equipment
Armor
+5 Mammoth Hide (ISC) (Determination, Dastard or Champion depending on alignment, bolstering, Moderate Fortification, jousting (if you think ride checks will be a problem), stanching)
Mount Armor
+5 Barded Mammoth Hide (ISC) (Note-You mount isn’t proficient with medium armor. However, the Charger archetype has a class feature like the fighter’s armor training so there won’t be any penalties anyway) (Determination, Stanching, Moderate Fortification, burdenless)
Weapons
+5 Mammoth Lance (Note, I haven’t found this weapon anywhere other than this site and mentioned on a few random forums which is odd because according to the site it’s PFS legal. It’s possible that this weapon was from a previous version of the game and never made the conversion. Consult your GM) (Impact, valiant) (For the final +2 you can use two of the +1d6 enhancements for a sustained damage boost. For a burst type of bonus, take one of the burst enhancements)
+5 Cestus (Dueling, Guarding, Defending, Courageous)
(Dueling is the primary bonus you want)
+5 War Lance (Optional-buy if you can’t get the Mammoth Lance, if you want a backup or if you choose the Order of the Sword) (Same enhancements)
Other Equipment
+6 Belt of Physical Might (STR, CON)
+6 Headband of Mental Superiority (endgame item, CHA and INT are the important stats though)
Champion’s Banner
Vambraces of the Tactician
Snake skin Tunic
Crashing Boots (note, like the Mammoth Lance, this is the only site that I can find that references this item, consult your GM)
Juggernaut’s Pauldrons (has a good general use but the enlarge person spell can’t be used without increasing your mounts size as well)
Caltrop Boots (optional, buy if your GM won’t allow the Crashing Boots. They are fun to use when charging)
Crusader’s Tabard (optional, as far as I can tell the only use would be to sneak attack with a charge)
Rings
Ring of Terrible Cost
Any
Ring of Splendid Security (Optional-End game goal)
Mount Equipment
Horsemaster's Saddle
+5 Cloak of Resistance
+7 Body Wraps of Mighty Strikes (+5 enhancement, any two of the 1d6 additions)
+2 Headband of Vast Intelligence (necessary and it’s the cheapest option)
Cap of the Free Thinker (optional, who needs a mount that's been dominated?)
Headband of Deathless devotion or Band of the Stalwart Warrior (one provides a resistance to things like dominate, the other helps against fear, your choice) both are optional
Unfettered Shirt (optional)
Alpha Charge equipment (Highest in effectiveness as a glass-cannon. These items generally have a charge time that makes them useless past their initial use in an encounter. Use with the Knight’s challenge or Moment of Triumph (if the Order of the Cockatrice was chosen). You may want to have replacement items for slotted equipment so you’re not wearing something that has no effect most of the time)
Cyclops Helm
Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess (mainly if it can be used by the Mount because your only benefit would be attack rolls. It requires a command word so ask your GM if you can speak the word for it)
Ring of Terrible Cost (2x)
Greater Dire Collar
Juggernaut’s Pauldrons
Inspiring Rush (not equipment but can only be used once per day)
Now for the fun stuff, attack and damage rolls.
Attack rolls for your character
Assumes the endgame STR is 14 (20 with STR bonus from belt, 22 from using Juggernaut Pauldrons) and CHA is 24 (30 with Charisma bonus from a headband) because you have the Mammoth Lance and Moment of Triumph is active. Assumes you don’t crit. Assumes target is large enough so you don’t get height (most BBEG are size large or larger and/or fly)
BAB-20
STR-6
Weapon Focus-1
Moment of Triumph bonus-10
Weapon Enhancement Bonus-5
Crashing Boots-2
Cavaliers Charge-4
Inspiring Rush-1
If you have a Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess-4
Furious Focus Negates Power attack Penalties
Size of Large-(-1)
Total-44 (48 with a Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess)
If the Mount hits first then add 2 (effective addition because of Distracting Charge)
Mount Attack Rolls
Assumes Greater Dire Collar is used (Mount is now Huge) and the Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess works. STR totals at 48 (with Greater Dire Collar, Spirits Gift, Eye for Talent and Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess)
BAB-12
STR-19
Weapon Enhancement bonus-5
Charge bonus-2
Inspiring Rush-1
Size of huge-(-2)
Furious Focus Negates Power attack Penalties
Total-37 (first attack with pounce, iterative attacks lose the charge benefit and apply power attack penalties making their totals 31)
If the PC hit first then add 2 (effective addition because of Distracting Charge)
Damage rolls for your character
2x Mounts STR (Dire Collar in effect and assuming the Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess can be used. Also active are the Mammoth Lance and Horn of Criosphinx)-19 base, 38 total
Power Attack-18
Ring of Terrible Cost-5
Weapon Enhancement-5
Base Challenge Bonus-36 (base+Dwarf FCB+wondrous items)
Threatening alone-7 (base+wondrous items)
Moment of Triumph Bonus-10
Inspiring Rush-1
Spirited Charge and Supreme Charge-4x
Total-480
Crit. total-720
Dice Rolls (Burst used)
Impact and Enlarge Person (effectively huge)-3d6 (4x so 12d6 total, Crit. 18d6)
Mammoth Hide-4d6
Flaming Burst (or any burst)-1d6 Flaming, (Crit. 2d10 Flaming Burst)
Valiant-1d6
(Crit.-2d6 bleed)
Total Average-63 (60 piercing, 3 fire)
Crit. Total average-95 (81 piercing, 14 fire)
Overall total PC average-539
Overall crit. total PC average-809+2d6 bleed
Mount base Damage (same assumption as above) (assumes evolved companion (bite) is used)
Strength-28 (bite) (19 on claw attacks)
Power attack-8
Weapon Enhancement-5
Ring of Terrible Cost-5 (first attack only)
Challenge Bonus-15 (if Order bonus can be added then add an extra 3 when threatening alone and another 5 when Moment of Triumph is used)
Inspiring Rush-1
Total-62 first (bite), 48 on the second 2
Total if all 3 attacks hit-158
Crit. Total-124 (first attack (bite))
Crit total-96 (each subsequent attacks)
Mount Dice Rolls (Bite should be the charging hit so only it gains the mammoth hide benefit)
Standard (pounce)-3d6 (bite), 2d6x2 (2 claws) (Improved Natural Weapon and Huge)
Mammoth Hide-4d6
Total Average (Just bite)-24
Total Average (Just claw)-3 per
Total Average (all 3 hit)-31
Crit. Total Average (Bite)-48
Crit. Total Average (Claw)-6 per
Overall total mount average (just Bite)-86
Overall total mount average (just Claw)-51 per
Overall total mount average (All 3)-189
Overall crit. total mount average (Bite)-172
Overall crit. total mount average (claw)-102 per
Build was based in part on the build posted by Cycada
Note-There may be some things I missed so if I did or I messed something up then please let me know. You can look into getting a mount with a better STR score to increase the damage output though overall potential damage may be reduced (loss of pounce).
The forum ate my initial post, so I'll just post the summary here instead:
It'd be redundant to post my most recent build iteration, so the following are things that I see might make your build better.
Abbreviations: mStr = mount strength, Str = rider strength
1. If Order of the Cockatrice's challenge bonus is not applied to your mount, Order of the Sword becomes better. Apply point #3 (below) to make up for the lost morale bonus to mount damage, and use Knight's challenge to make up for the charisma bonus. In cases where 2x Str + mStr is higher than 2x mStr (ex. Str 30 Rider, Str <52 Mount), Mounted Mastery provides a higher gain than using a Mammoth Lance.
Remember that attaining 30 Str for the rider would have to be done without lowering Cha below 30 without affecting the Knight's Challenge bonus.
2. Fit in the feat Totem Beast somewhere in your build. With a base Wis of 9 and a Headband of Mental Superiority you should be fine to meet the Wis 13 prereq. It gives your allosaurus a constant +6 enhancement bonus to Str, bumping all related values obviously.
3. A couched lance requires one hand to use (but counts as two). Fill that other hand with a Banner of Ancient Kings. Take the Flagbearer feat. Most of these bonus will override your Banner ability, but it'll provide you a +4 morale bonus to attack damage, and a +2 to attack damage for your mount. Obviously this is only useful for a Order of the Sword build.
4. You are missing out on a +18 base damage for all attacks by not including the Pack Flanking + Wild Flanking combo. If you aren't familiar, it doubles your Power Attack bonus in exchange for hurting your mount in the process. This a potential 72 damage extra, not included for the lance charge alone.
5. If it is ruled that Order of the Cockatrice can be applied to your mount's challenge bonus, use a Suzerain Scepter in your offhand instead of the flag to give it an extra +1 to damage (and attack w/ banner ability)
If I think up anything else, I'll be sure to post. Hope some of this helps!
Ride-by-Attack. Charge Every turn.
Cycada wrote: The forum ate my initial post, so I'll just post the summary here instead:
It'd be redundant to post my most recent build iteration, so the following are things that I see might make your build better.
You could still post the build. Yours was done with pure optimization of the charging cavalier, mine was done with the intent of urking out as much damge as possible while still keeping the human race and tactician ability (so no Gendarme or Hoard charge)
Cycada wrote: Abbreviations: mStr = mount strength, Str = rider strength
1. If Order of the Cockatrice's challenge bonus is not applied to your mount, Order of the Sword becomes better. Apply point #3 (below) to make up for the lost morale bonus to mount damage, and use Knight's challenge to make up for the charisma bonus. In cases where 2x Str + mStr is higher than 2x mStr (ex. Str 30 Rider, Str <52 Mount), Mounted Mastery provides a higher gain than using a Mammoth Lance.
I think that given the new additions you've provided here, the Order of the Cockatrice would end up being the better of the two options (math done at the end of the post)
Cycada wrote: Remember that attaining 30 Str for the rider would have to be done without lowering Cha below 30 without affecting the Knight's Challenge bonus. I don't think this is possible since I'm getting rid of the Juggernaut's Pauldrons (see #4). With a maximum starting value of 20 to each (for my setup anyway) (dropping the rest to an average of 8), a racil bonus of +2 to one of them, level up bonuses bringing them up by 2 each and an item enhancement bonus of +6 to each that gets one with 30 and one with 28.
Cycada wrote: 2. Fit in the feat Totem Beast somewhere in your build. With a base Wis of 9 and a Headband of Mental Superiority you should be fine to meet the Wis 13 prereq. It gives your allosaurus a constant +6 enhancement bonus to Str, bumping all related values obviously. I suppose one could drop bleeding critical which then opens another feat (because why keep critical focus after that?) which would allow for the flagbearer feat as well (I personally just used them for the continuous damage but swapping them out seems to be the best option with this new feat).
Cycada wrote: 3. A couched lance requires one hand to use (but counts as two). Fill that other hand with a Banner of Ancient Kings. Take the Flagbearer feat. Most of these bonus will override your Banner ability, but it'll provide you a +4 morale bonus to attack damage, and a +2 to attack damage for your mount. Obviously this is only useful for a Order of the Sword build. I don't think this would override anything, just add where the standard banner ability doesn't affect (charm, damage rolls and non-charge based attack rolls). At level 20 the banner ability gives a +5 against fear and a +4 on attack rolls as part of a charge.
Also I forgot about the banner bonus if I'm being honest (I currently play a build that doesn't use it so I completely neglected to add it in).
However I'm not seeing where you're getting +4 to damage from, especially considering you're using the Order of the Sword for this item (unless you're adding the mounts damage roll with your own, but that would only apply to STR)
The Moral bonuses in effect in this case would be:
Standard banner-+5 on saving throws against fear
+4 on attack rolls while charging
The order's challenge bonus-+7 by level 20 with the two Champion's banner and Vambraces of the Tactician on. For the Order of the Sword this adds to attack rolls and for the Order of the Cockatrice it's to damage rolls.
Flagbearer feat and the Banner of the Ancient Kings-+2 to attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and saving throws against fear and charm effects.
The higher bonuses override one another so in total you should have this:
+7 to attack rolls so long as you remain mounted and are challenging.
If one of those two conditions is lost and you charge then +4. If one of those two conditions is lost and you're attacking normally then +2.
Your mount gains the +4 when charging and the +2 otherwise.
+2 on damage rolls.
+5 on saving throws against fear
+2 on saving throws against charm effects
Cycada wrote: 4. You are missing out on a +18 base damage for all attacks by not including the Pack Flanking + Wild Flanking combo. If you aren't familiar, it doubles your Power Attack bonus in exchange for hurting your mount in the process. This a potential 72 damage extra, not included for the lance charge alone. You are correct though it would require getting rid of the Juggernaut Pauldrons (which, given the damage increase isn't exactly a tough choice). For some reason when I was updating I didn't think that you could get an overlapping threat area even while a medium sized creature (it was late). So these two feats can be taken in place of two of the teamwork feats from the tactician ability.
Cycada wrote: 5. If it is ruled that Order of the Cockatrice can be applied to your mount's challenge bonus, use a Suzerain Scepter in your offhand instead of the flag to give it an extra +1 to damage (and attack w/ banner ability) Good call. Plus with this it would open up another feat (idk, maybe improved critical just for the extra change to get the crit).
Cycada wrote: If I think up anything else, I'll be sure to post. Hope some of this helps! This helps quite a bit, thank you.
Math (Order of the Cockatrice vs Order of the Sword) (PC damage)
First we assume the same initial stats of 22 STR and 20 CHA (who cares about the rest in this case, includes racial bonus). With level up bonuses (2 per, 1 left over) that brings us to 24 and 22. The belt and headband get 30 and 28.
We can also assume the mount has the same STR. This should be 58 (14 (base)+ 8 (level 7 advancement)+ 4 (level up ability scored)+ 6(Str/Dex level advancement)+ 8 (Greater Dire collar)+ 8 (Blood Reservoir)+ 2(Spirits Gift)+ 2 (eye for talent)+ 6(Beast Totem (bull)) (why do I feel like I added something wrong again?)
Equipment-Same as above. We can assume that the order bonus does apply to the mount for now. The flagbearer will be in effect and the Banner of the Ancient Kings is held for the Order of the Sword Equation (OoS doesn't have a morale bonus that adds damage) and the Suzerain Scepter will be used for the Order of the Cockatrice.
P=PC STR
M=Mount STR
C=Challenge damage
H=CHA bonus
E=Extra damage from the order's challenge bonus
K=Knight's challenge (K=C+H)
T=Moment of Triumph (T=H)
F=Flagbearer and Banner of the Ancient Kings boost
S=Suzerain Scepter
L=Lance damage (average dice rolls, same ability additions, +5 enhancement)
O=Other additives (Mammoth Hide, power attack, etc.)
Order of the Cockatrice Equation (mammoth lance is in use):
Damage=(2xM)+C+E+S+T+L+O
Order of the Sword Equation (any other lance, Mounted Mastery is in effect):
Damage=(2xP)+M+K+F+L+O
((2M)+C+E+S+T+L+O)?((2P)+M+K+F+L+O)
T=H, K=C+H
((2M)+C+E+S+H+L+O)?((2p)+M+C+H+F+L+O)
Remove like terms
(M+E+S)?((2P)+F)
Substitute
(24+7+1)?((2x5)+2)
Finish
31>12
Mount attack additions:
Pounce is utilized and we assume all three hit.
Everything is the same between the two save for the Scepter, the flagbearer feat, the Kinght's challenge and the Extra damage from the Order's challenge.
The extra math goes as follows
S=Scepter
F=Flagbearer
K=Half of H above rounded down (K=C+H, the C's cancel out leaving us with H)
O=Half of the extra Damage from Order of the Cockatrice's challenge
Order of the Cockatrice Equation:
Damage=3(S+O)
Order of the Sword Equation:
Damage=3(K+F)
(3(S+O))?(3(K+F))
Substitute Numbers
(3(1+3)?(3(4+2)
Finish
12<18
Total
12+31>18+12
43>30
Winner
Order of the Cockatrice (Unless I missed something else which seems likely)
Corrections to the above math:
I added the Suzerain Scepter to the player's damage rolls when I shouldn't have. Not that that mattered to the final total because my bad adding took that out anyway so the total remains 31.
I also used the wrong value for the player strength. It should have been 10, not 5 making the final player total for the Order of the Sword 22 and the final overall total for OOS 40.
With this the Order of the Cockatrice is still ahead but not by as much as I first thought meaning any slight change (more bad adding perhaps?) could tip the scales.
Michael, the +4 to damage comes from the Banner of Ancient Kings + Flagbearer + Courageous Weapon. The Banner of Ancient Kings is a morale bonus, which does not stack with the Order of Cockatrice bonus to damage from challenging. This was the reason for the pointed exclusion.
Courageous weapon also increases OotC, so we should assume both are using it with a +4 (or higher) weapon.
This means that your values should be 4 for (F), and 9 for (E). Cha bonus would be maximized at 30 since we're still using Mammoth Lance. At Str 58, the only way a non-Mammoth would be better/equal is if you had Str 32+.
So, the Rider Damage would end up as
OotC: (M+E) = (24+9) = 33
OotS: (M+F) = (24+4) = 28
Mount Damage (If we're assuming that cockatrice adds to mount challenge, to be fair Knight's challenge must do the same.):
OotC: 3(S+O) = 3(1+3) = 12
OotS: 3(K+F) = 3(5+2) = 21
Total OotC: 45
Total OotS: 49
49 > 45 : Unless my math is off somewhere, OotS still just barely eeks ahead. The reason for this is purely based on Knight's challenge offering a greater benefit (being an untyped benefit for the mount), whereas Moment of Triumph is a self-buff only, and eats up the mount's morale bonus with the charger challenge.
If the charger archetype is determined to not include these other effects, Cockatrice pulls ahead because they end up with a higher morale bonus + cha bonus. Mount damage without the additional challenge bonuses would be identical. Otherwise, OotS seems to be just barely ahead. Though, even though it's outside the scope of this theoretical charge, OotS does have the advantage in that Knight's Challenge lasts longer than one round.
Cycada wrote: Michael, the +4 to damage comes from the Banner of Ancient Kings + Flagbearer + Courageous Weapon. The Banner of Ancient Kings is a morale bonus, which does not stack with the Order of Cockatrice bonus to damage from challenging. This was the reason for the pointed exclusion.
Courageous weapon also increases OotC, so we should assume both are using it with a +4 (or higher) weapon.
That is a good weapon enhancement to have then.
This means that your values should be 4 for (F), and 9 for (E). Cha bonus would be maximized at 30 since we're still using Mammoth Lance. At Str 58, the only way a non-Mammoth would be better/equal is if you had Str 32+.
So, the Rider Damage would end up as
OotC: (M+E) = (24+9) = 33
OotS: (M+F) = (24+4) = 28
Mount Damage (If we're assuming that cockatrice adds to mount challenge, to be fair Knight's challenge must do the same.):
OotC: 3(S+O) = 3(1+3) = 12
OotS: 3(K+F) = 3(5+2) = 21
Total OotC: 45
Total OotS: 49
49 > 45 : Unless my math is off somewhere, OotS still just barely eeks ahead. The reason for this is purely based on Knight's challenge offering a greater benefit (being an untyped benefit for the mount), whereas Moment of Triumph is a self-buff only, and eats up the mount's morale bonus with the charger challenge. I had figured that OotS would use a different lance to have mounted mastery in effect (for some reason).
You are correct though, the Order of the Sword is the better option. You can also increase the by putting the racial bonus and all 4 points from leveling up into Cha which brings you up to 32.
Ok, back at my desk and picking this back up. :)
I'm afraid for the purpose of the Guide, I'm limiting my characters to paizo.com/prd stuff. So, some of those magic items (such as the banner) while fantastic ideas, won't be on the sheet.
Also, the value of the gear doesn't match the allowance of the game (as per LINK: Character Wealth by Level), so I had to chop out a LOT of extras.
I still need to add in the Mount's attacks, in addition to figuring out the feats and making sure to show all bonuses on the DPR, but the base stuff is done. I'll work on it more tomorrow, any suggestions are greatly appreciated still. :)
LINK: CAVALIER GUIDE (use the drop down box to advance in levels and see what is received per-level).
Still has a lot of work to go, but the core of it is set. :)
Question, how are you going to get all of these 'specific magic' items in the campaign your playing. When a GM is running a campaign aren't the magic items in shops supposed to be randomly generated. And other than the pc taking the feats and having the spells to craft the magic items themselves, wouldn't the GM have to place these specific items in the campaign. I find that thought very hard to accept because this is giving the players exactly everything they want.
I have heard of people talk about the wealth by level all the time, but never how they actually obtain all these specific magic items. I know that GM's will sometimes throw PC's a bone and give them something they want occasionally, but not all the time. Most of the time PC's have to settle for what then can get in adventuring, and even if they sell there loot(to get things they want to buy), by pathfinder rules you can only usually get half price.
Its awesome to discuss and min/max character on paper, but when you use them in an actual game, I ask again how are you going to get all your ideal stuff.
You're assuming 1st level advancement. Many games (I'd go so far as to say 'most' even) begin at a higher level, sometimes even level 20, which is why there's the Character Wealth by Level table. It allows you to generate your gear based on your starting level. This value is still much lower (in my experience) than you'd actually get if you were XPing your way up to the level, but enough to keep you in line with game progression.
The "Guide" is intended to make sure you have a feel for just how powerful you 'should' be by a specified level (assuming, as stated, that your goal is to pour out damage), lets you know if you're lagging behind, or doing very well.
That being said, not only do I agree with you SwordFalcon, I've even gotten into mildly heated discussions with people on these forums about how they do the same. A few people on these forums seem to have GMs that let them just pick up whatever gear they want by going to a metropolis and buying them.
Sphynx wrote: Ok, back at my desk and picking this back up. :)
I'm afraid for the purpose of the Guide, I'm limiting my characters to paizo.com/prd stuff. So, some of those magic items (such as the banner) while fantastic ideas, won't be on the sheet.
Also, the value of the gear doesn't match the allowance of the game (as per LINK: Character Wealth by Level), so I had to chop out a LOT of extras.
I still need to add in the Mount's attacks, in addition to figuring out the feats and making sure to show all bonuses on the DPR, but the base stuff is done. I'll work on it more tomorrow, any suggestions are greatly appreciated still. :)
LINK: CAVALIER GUIDE (use the drop down box to advance in levels and see what is received per-level).
Still has a lot of work to go, but the core of it is set. :)
880k is a lot of gold. Were you not looking for a level 20 build?
Also, the pfsrd is a resource available to everyone, so I see no reason to limit yourself to the paizo prd unless your DM has set arbitrary restrictions.
Lastly, @swordfalcon, most DMs who aren't extremely restrictive will work with you to get your core items as you need them. This thread is called "Most Damage Possible" not "Most Damage Possible with a Stringent DM". While the above figures are theoretical, many of the items mentioned should be available one way or another.
Items such as the Mammoth Lance, Mammoth Hide, and cavalier specific boosting items, whether reflavored or not, I would expect should be seen over the course of your character's adventures with a cooperative DM.
Sphynx wrote: You're assuming 1st level advancement. Many games (I'd go so far as to say 'most' even) begin at a higher level, sometimes even level 20, which is why there's the Character Wealth by Level table. It allows you to generate your gear based on your starting level. This value is still much lower (in my experience) than you'd actually get if you were XPing your way up to the level, but enough to keep you in line with game progression.
The "Guide" is intended to make sure you have a feel for just how powerful you 'should' be by a specified level (assuming, as stated, that your goal is to pour out damage), lets you know if you're lagging behind, or doing very well.
That being said, not only do I agree with you SwordFalcon, I've even gotten into mildly heated discussions with people on these forums about how they do the same. A few people on these forums seem to have GMs that let them just pick up whatever gear they want by going to a metropolis and buying them.
My GM does allow this sort off, but only during downtime and depending on how expensive the items is it takes that many days away from your down time because you are looking for it. We also have to pay full price for it and he keeps the loot we get form our adventurous balanced to our lvl. Although we have acquired some expensive magic rings in one of our latest sessions. But I am kinda wary of them. Just before that I acquired what I thought was a belt of physical perfection +4 and I was a 9th lvl character. I thought this item was a little to expensive for a character of my lvl, but I was too excited about having it and put it on anyway. Turns out it was a cursed item, a belt of sex change. Lesson learned. lol
Thanks to this thread I am learning a lot. I play a 8 paladin/1 cavalier build in Runelords. Some of these items mentioned I am considering for my build. So again I hope I did not rub you guys the wrong way.
880k Gold is a lot, and I made a mistake in calculating costs which I'll fix today, but it's not as much as you might think, especially with the upper echelons being 144k (Belt of Perfection) 144k (Lance and Falchion +5, +1 Special each), 120k (Amulet of Natural, +5 Breastplate of the Champion, +5 Cloak of Resistance), etc, etc... it adds up very quickly and insures that you don't have much more than the 'necessary' items until level 12 for most builds.
I should finish the Cav today and will let you know. However, I've limited it to paizo because, despite the commonality on the forums, I find that most groups are restricted to non 3rd-party gear, and just as most Guides only advise on the paizo books, this is intended as much as a guide as a test of DPR analysis.
Sphynx wrote: 880k Gold is a lot, and I made a mistake in calculating costs which I'll fix today, but it's not as much as you might think, especially with the upper echelons being 144k (Belt of Perfection) 144k (Lance and Falchion +5, +1 Special each), 120k (Amulet of Natural, +5 Breastplate of the Champion, +5 Cloak of Resistance), etc, etc... it adds up very quickly and insures that you don't have much more than the 'necessary' items until level 12 for most builds.
I should finish the Cav today and will let you know. However, I've limited it to paizo because, despite the commonality on the forums, I find that most groups are restricted to non 3rd-party gear, and just as most Guides only advise on the paizo books, this is intended as much as a guide as a test of DPR analysis.
Wouldn't be cheaper to slap transformative ability on either the Falchion or the Lance. Its only flat cost of 10,000 gp and both are two-handed weapons. Much cheaper than investing into two separate expensive weapons.
swordfalcon wrote:
Wouldn't be cheaper to slap transformative ability on either the Falchion or the Lance. Its only flat cost of 10,000 gp and both are two-handed weapons. Much cheaper than investing into two separate expensive weapons.
It would indeed, and I will. :) I had it originally, but had more than just the 1 special ability (Keen on the Falchion and Valiant on the Lance), at which point it was more expensive to have 1 weapon than 2. But if I stick to a single special ability, then transformative is definitely the way to go, thanks. :)
Sphynx wrote: swordfalcon wrote:
Wouldn't be cheaper to slap transformative ability on either the Falchion or the Lance. Its only flat cost of 10,000 gp and both are two-handed weapons. Much cheaper than investing into two separate expensive weapons.
It would indeed, and I will. :) I had it originally, but had more than just the 1 special ability (Keen on the Falchion and Valiant on the Lance), at which point it was more expensive to have 1 weapon than 2. But if I stick to a single special ability, then transformative is definitely the way to go, thanks. :) Are you allowed to have eastern weapons, because I think the Nodachi is slightly better than the Falchion because of the brace ability it has.
And one more thing since the transformative ability is a flat cost and not +n ability it should not count against the +10 cap a magic weapon has. At least this is what I have been told. And if I am right it should give you the advantage in battle when switching out weapons which can provoke AoO attacks(sheathing a weapon does). Its is command action to do it. I think that is considered a standard action. I plan on using it with my Paladin Mount build. If anyone can provide help with my build, any advice would be appreciated.
Sphynx wrote: Ok, back at my desk and picking this back up. :)
I'm afraid for the purpose of the Guide, I'm limiting my characters to paizo.com/prd stuff. So, some of those magic items (such as the banner) while fantastic ideas, won't be on the sheet.
Also, the value of the gear doesn't match the allowance of the game (as per LINK: Character Wealth by Level), so I had to chop out a LOT of extras.
I still need to add in the Mount's attacks, in addition to figuring out the feats and making sure to show all bonuses on the DPR, but the base stuff is done. I'll work on it more tomorrow, any suggestions are greatly appreciated still. :)
LINK: CAVALIER GUIDE (use the drop down box to advance in levels and see what is received per-level).
Still has a lot of work to go, but the core of it is set. :)
If you're looking for damage you could armor yourself with Rhino Hide rather than the breastplate. It costs slightly more but saves when taking into account the belt. It also deals an extra 2d6's of damage on a charge at the cost of dropping the max DEX bonus. But with that you could also save 54k by getting the Belt of Physical Might (STR/CON) and keeping your DEX where it is.
I'm also not sure how strict you're going with this but the crashing boots seem to be in the game, just not purchasable through standard means. They are used by Orcs so if your GM is compliant you could buy them from orcs or get a 5 fingered (or whatever you have) discount and steal them from some orcs you go may up against.
swordfalcon wrote: And one more thing since the transformative ability is a flat cost and not +n ability it should not count against the +10 cap a magic weapon has. At least this is what I have been told. And if I am right it should give you the advantage in battle when switching out weapons which can provoke AoO attacks(sheathing a weapon does). Its is command action to do it. I think that is considered a standard action You are correct on both here. It doesn't count toward the total +10 and it is a standard action to switch.
You also might be able to use quick draw with this but I haven't seen much regarding that so it's either too obviously right to mention or too obviously wrong to mention. I'm not sure which.
Michael Grate wrote:
If you're looking for damage you could armor yourself with Rhino Hide rather than the breastplate. It costs slightly more but saves when taking into account the belt. It also deals an extra 2d6's of damage on a charge at the cost of dropping the max DEX bonus. But with that you could also save 54k by getting the Belt of Physical Might (STR/CON) and keeping your DEX where it is.
I'm also not sure how strict you're going with this but the crashing boots seem to be in the game, just not purchasable through standard means. They are used by Orcs so if your GM is compliant you could buy them from orcs or get a 5 fingered (or whatever you have) discount and steal them from some orcs you go may up against. I love the Rhino Hide for the class, forgot that existed. I suppose, particularly for a Cavalier, that balances out the much lower AC you'd have from replacing Breastplate with Hide. Excellent call.
Dex I don't think we should redux at all. Combat Reflexes is very important, but I do agree that I could/should use Physical Might instead of Physical Perfection between levels that those can be afforded. I'll recalculate everything later today (right now working on feats).
Sphynx wrote: 880k Gold is a lot, and I made a mistake in calculating costs which I'll fix today, but it's not as much as you might think, especially with the upper echelons being 144k (Belt of Perfection) 144k (Lance and Falchion +5, +1 Special each), 120k (Amulet of Natural, +5 Breastplate of the Champion, +5 Cloak of Resistance), etc, etc... it adds up very quickly and insures that you don't have much more than the 'necessary' items until level 12 for most builds.
I should finish the Cav today and will let you know. However, I've limited it to paizo because, despite the commonality on the forums, I find that most groups are restricted to non 3rd-party gear, and just as most Guides only advise on the paizo books, this is intended as much as a guide as a test of DPR analysis.
I'm not trying to be combative here, just trying to dispel some falsehoods:
The pfsrd, while managed by a 3rd party company (i.e. not paizo), the content contained therein is mostly paizo information. The 3rd party content is marked as such, and all suggestions made by both Michael and myself have been made with the standing assumption that 3rd party content is not allowed.
The Mammoth Lance, Mammoth Hide, Banner of Ancient Kings, are all paizo items, just they aren't listed on the paizo prd because they are in books not listed as easy-to-find, open source content.
Archive of Nethys and the PFSRD are just tools to help organize an otherwise unwieldy list of thousands of items, hundreds of feats, and dozens of archetypes that would be difficult to sort through. Use them as you will, I wanted to ensure there was no mistake that the suggestions made above are definitely from paizo materials!
Cycada wrote:
I'm not trying to be combative here, just trying to dispel some falsehoods:
The pfsrd, while managed by a 3rd party company (i.e. not paizo), the content contained therein is mostly paizo information. The 3rd party content is marked as such, and all suggestions made by both Michael and myself have been made with the standing assumption that 3rd party content is not allowed.
The Mammoth Lance, Mammoth Hide, Banner of Ancient Kings, are all paizo items, just they aren't listed on the paizo prd because they are in books not listed as easy-to-find, open source content.
Archive of Nethys and the PFSRD are just tools to help organize an otherwise unwieldy list of thousands of items, hundreds of feats, and dozens of archetypes that would be difficult to sort through. Use them as you will, I wanted to ensure there was no mistake that the suggestions made above are definitely from paizo materials!
I don't make assumptions on how combative someone is being unless derogatory labeling occurs. :P So no worries. ;)
I honestly didn't know that about your pfsrd site, nonetheless I prefer to stick with stuff found in the main books. I will make some "notes" at the bottom for recommended non-core items, to list the Mammoth stuff and any Banners, but since I don't have access to those items, don't feel I should post them.
That being said, I'm "finished" unless someone finds mistakes. The Tiger proved to be a lot less spectacular than I'd expected... his damage is, what I assume to be, very sub-par. Any recommendations on that?
Also, ended with +221 damage on the charge... does that seem right? Too low? Too high? I was really trying to optimize damage by maximizing the use of a companion and I thought the "pounce" of the tiger would go further than it seems to go.
I know I intend to get an Amulet of the Mighty Fist on the Tiger's neck, though that seems to be a level 18 purchase, so very late in the game unless I spread out the expenditures a bit further... his attack bonus is low, his damage is low... I feel like I did something wrong... :/
Sphynx wrote: That being said, I'm "finished" unless someone finds mistakes. The Tiger proved to be a lot less spectacular than I'd expected... his damage is, what I assume to be, very sub-par. Any recommendations on that? Get an Allosaurus? It still has pounce but also has 1 higher in STR so you get a +1 per attack.
Sphynx wrote: Also, ended with +221 damage on the charge... does that seem right? Too low? Too high? I was really trying to optimize damage by maximizing the use of a companion and I thought the "pounce" of the tiger would go further than it seems to go. The combination of high strength and pounce is the best you'll get charging wise with an animal companion and compared to the potential damage output of the PC, the damage output of the animal companion is going to be pretty pathetic overall, not much you can do about it. The main damage should be coming from your own charge which is supplemented by the mount's attacks.
If you get Spirit's gift (mammoth) rather than (stone) (on a side note, a stone as a spirit animal? Someone got way too into the pet rock craze) you lose DR but gain +2 to STR. Given the typical way this build functions (run, hit, run away) you shouldn't need this DR too much. Mounted Combat also serves to protect your mount so if you use that you can reduce its damage taken by a decent amount anyway.
Sphynx wrote: I know I intend to get an Amulet of the Mighty Fist on the Tiger's neck, though that seems to be a level 18 purchase, so very late in the game unless I spread out the expenditures a bit further...his attack bonus is low, his damage is low... I feel like I did something wrong... :/ Other advice on this build:
Mounted Skirmisher is almost useless for a primary charger. I should know, I play one who took the Emissary archetype (that archetype gives it for free). It sounds nice but because the situation is extremely rare where you can't take a 5th step to get the full attack action or charge in (the charge option is always better with this build (one attack hits like multiple, furious focus can be applied with full use, higher chance to hit etc.)) this feat becomes unused immediately. This is especially true seeing as you have the Step up feat.
Unless you're dealing with constant maze-like hallways and enemies that your team can detect before they detect you, you will this feat going completely unused without you playing around just to use it (you walk away like you aren't playing attention to the enemy then walk back, yell "Just kidding!" and smack them with your weapon of choice for fun)
You can save your mount 2 feats by getting the Horsemaster's saddle which is available according to the PDR site. It allows the mount to benefit from any teamwork feats your character has (think of it like a continuous tactician so long as you're mounted). It's only 12k so it seems to fit into your total and it allows you to replace Paired Opportunists and Escape Route.
I personally wouldn't use weapon finesses for an animal companion with strength as high as yours. Weapon Finesses is mainly to allow low STR, high DEX characters to get hits in without having to become an archer. It is then combined with a number of feats to improve the ability (off the top of my head, two-weapon fighting comes to mind). An animal companion with lower strength could use it but a Big Cat doesn't need it, especially since its level 7 advancement drops its dex a little but raises it's strength a lot. From here you can bring up it's strength score more to improve the pounce ability.
You said Combat Reflexes is important but I'm not seeing how. None of the feats you have use it as a prerequisite and being surrounded by provoking enemies shouldn't be a major concern. You'll be either charging past a group hitting one or, in the case of a small number of enemies (usually 1 problematic BBEG) you'll end up in front of/directly next to them to utilize pounce (unless you can find some way to allow you to continue moving after pounce, I don't think it's possible but I'm sure there's a way to cheese it). In a case where you end up surrounded you get 2 AoO anyway (one from your PC, one from your mount) so unless you find yourself lacking good feats to take, this one should probably be a last concern.
Step-up is iffy, especially after pouncing and when holding a lance. You'll end up directly next to the enemy so if they 5ft step away the PC is still threatening so you can make a full-attack action, take a 5ft step and have your mount do the same. With step up you'll be doing the same thing in reverse order (step up, mount full attack, 5ft step back, PC full attack).
As a human, use the racial heritage (dwarf) feat (take it at level 1) to gain a +10 to your challenge (on a standard charge this is a +40 by level 20, a crit makes it +60).
The Greater Dire Collar is available so if you want a good temporary bonus to be used with the knight's challenge it's a pretty good option and once used up, the Amulet of Mighty Fists can replace it.
Obviously these are personal opinions as I don't know exactly what your typical encounters look like or what the exact build you want should end up being.
thistledown wrote: BTW, the other reason I like Axebeak in the comparison - free trip attempt on charge. So you and mount charge, it hopefully hits and trips, and you stab vs prone AC. The strength is a bit less though. BTW, I'm not sure if you're still looking into this thread but I am still trying to figure out a good PFS build, it's just been slow going since I've never done anything close to PFS so I barely know the rules.
I have come up with basics though like going mainly for classes that offer druid levels so you don't have to pick between using a feat slot (horse master) and an under-leveled mount. If you want a little magic, a dip into paladin/antipaladin is a good option since both classes use charisma as one of the focus stats.
My mistake, when I saw "Spirit's Gift (Mammoth)", I assumed you were taking it on the Mammoth rather than it being a Gift. I don't see this gift in Hero Lab (which is also missing Ancestor and Wood it seems). Since the charge is so important, I definitely agree...
As for Mounted Skirmisher and Step-Up, truth be told, I was iffy on both of those as well. I'll rework the feats to squeeze the Racial Heritage in there at 1st level, still leaves one feat unaccounted for.
I'll re-spend the cash on Friday (can't work on it today or tomorrow), and pick up the Horsemaster's Saddle and Greater Dire Collar early.
As for my choices... Weapon Finesse is primarily because at the lower levels, the Tigers Dex completely outshines his Str, and he really needs it to have a solid hitting with his Pounce, which is important on the charge I think. I could retrain it I suppose, but even at 20th level, the Dex is still +2 bonus higher than his Strength, and considering his attack bonus is so low, dropping Weapon Finesse would still put his attack bonus at less than the 4th attack of the Cavalier (which you don't expect to have a chance of hitting). I'm not convinced Weapon Finesse isn't needed, or should be retrained, since even with the Amulet of Mighty Fists, your attack bonus is still a good 10 points lower than the Cavalier's.
Combat Reflexes seems important to me (not having played a Cavalier) because you won't always get the ride-by-attack to work, and can get easily surrounded; not to mention that part of the idea was a character that survives on more than the charge, hence the tiger (tried to make sure they could do flanking maneuvers). With the Dex of the Tiger, he's starting with 4 AoO's possible per round, ending with 6.
Lastly, and thank you for your patience... :P The goal is not a character for me. I'd doubt I'd ever play a Cavalier, it's to work as an addendum to the guides, a "good" build that people can either use or compare against, and be effective as characters. It should even be able to replace the guide for people that find the guide to be too difficult to follow (which for Cavaliers is very understandable, seeing as how the both made everything multi-page without clear links for what is where). If you see -anything- that should be replaced because a Cavalier is sub-par without it, it should be mentioned on the page (including the Mammoth gear that I haven't added yet, and best dips which I only know Hunter so far, for a better Mount).
Sphynx wrote: As for my choices... Weapon Finesse is primarily because at the lower levels, the Tigers Dex completely outshines his Str, and he really needs it to have a solid hitting with his Pounce, which is important on the charge I think. I could retrain it I suppose, but even at 20th level, the Dex is still +2 bonus higher than his Strength, and considering his attack bonus is so low, dropping Weapon Finesse would still put his attack bonus at less than the 4th attack of the Cavalier (which you don't expect to have a chance of hitting). I'm not convinced Weapon Finesse isn't needed, or should be retrained, since even with the Amulet of Mighty Fists, your attack bonus is still a good 10 points lower than the Cavalier's. According to your build they're both even at 23 at level 20. Besides, I don't you added in the level 7 advancement which improves each of the attacks damage dies but also gives you a +8 on strength and a -2 on dex. The final total should be STR-27 DEX-21 before spending the ability score increase points (I'm guessing STR-30, DEX-22)
Sphynx wrote: Combat Reflexes seems important to me (not having played a Cavalier) because you won't always get the ride-by-attack to work, and can get easily surrounded; not to mention that part of the idea was a character that survives on more than the charge, hence the tiger (tried to make sure they could do flanking maneuvers). With the Dex of the Tiger, he's starting with 4 AoO's possible per round, ending with 6. Hmm, maybe keeping it for the player, but the mount definitely won't need it. Even the player is iffy but I can see what you're talking about.
The primary provocation would come from dumb fodder enemies walking blindly in to attack the PC and mount so if the lance is out and the enemy's range is only 5ft, it'll provoke from the PC, but not the mount. After that it depends on the enemy and GM but (unless this is just my own GM's style) the enemy is either too dumb to do anything that would provoke (taking a potion to heal, leaving when injured, etc.) or they are smart enough to position themselves well or use abilities that prevent them from provoking (ie. casting defensively). Plus at this point, unless one is hopelessly stuck fighting the hoard, they should be looking for a way to set their charge back up.
Sphynx wrote: Lastly, and thank you for your patience... :P The goal is not a character for me. I'd doubt I'd ever play a Cavalier, it's to work as an addendum to the guides, a "good" build that people can either use or compare against, and be effective as characters. It should even be able... Not at all, it's fine. =)
Michael Grate wrote:
According to your build they're both even at 23 at level 20. Besides, I don't you added in the level 7 advancement which improves each of the attacks damage dies but also gives you a +8 on strength and a -2 on dex. The final total should be STR-27 DEX-21 before spending the ability score increase points (I'm guessing STR-30, DEX-22)
I see the problem, I used the +2Dex/+2Con at 4th and 7th level alternate archetype. Will adjust.
Michael Grate wrote:
Hmm, maybe keeping Combat Reflexes for the player, but the mount definitely won't need it. Even the player is iffy but I can see what you're talking about.
The primary provocation would come from dumb fodder enemies walking blindly in to attack the PC and mount so if the lance is out and the enemy's range is only 5ft, it'll provoke from the PC, but not the mount. After that it depends on the enemy and GM but (unless this is just my own GM's style) the enemy is either too dumb to do anything that would provoke (taking a potion to heal, leaving when injured, etc.) or they are smart enough to position themselves well or use abilities that prevent them from provoking (ie. casting defensively). Plus at this point, unless one is hopelessly stuck fighting the hoard, they should be looking for a way to set their charge back up. Suggested replacement?
Michael Grate wrote: thistledown wrote: BTW, the other reason I like Axebeak in the comparison - free trip attempt on charge. So you and mount charge, it hopefully hits and trips, and you stab vs prone AC. The strength is a bit less though. BTW, I'm not sure if you're still looking into this thread but I am still trying to figure out a good PFS build, it's just been slow going since I've never done anything close to PFS so I barely know the rules.
I have come up with basics though like going mainly for classes that offer druid levels so you don't have to pick between using a feat slot (horse master) and an under-leveled mount. If you want a little magic, a dip into paladin/antipaladin is a good option since both classes use charisma as one of the focus stats. I'm still watching.
Druid, hunter, and Wild Child Brawler all progress with the full druid AC options starting at first level. Paladin gets the horse as an option at what, 5th?
Sphynx wrote: Suggested replacement? I'm guessing you're replacing paired opportunist and Escape Route for your mount since you're getting the Saddle and Weapons finesses because the strength is higher along with combat reflexes. If so I'd suggest Improved Natural Attack (bite) and (claws) and Improved Natural armor.
The 4th feat is player dependent:
Dodge adds more to AC so long as it's not flat-footed.
Weapon focus (natural attack) will help a little with being able to hit.
Any of the save improving feats helps but you could get Indomitable Mount for your character negating most of the use of these
Blind-fight is a good versatility choice because a big cat only has low light vision so without it you'll either have to buy it dark-vision goggles or it'll end up being unable to see from time to time depending on setting/scenario (anything that attacks while you're unable to see works like an invisible attacker so the feat works in dark areas)
thistledown wrote: Michael Grate wrote: thistledown wrote: BTW, the other reason I like Axebeak in the comparison - free trip attempt on charge. So you and mount charge, it hopefully hits and trips, and you stab vs prone AC. The strength is a bit less though. BTW, I'm not sure if you're still looking into this thread but I am still trying to figure out a good PFS build, it's just been slow going since I've never done anything close to PFS so I barely know the rules.
I have come up with basics though like going mainly for classes that offer druid levels so you don't have to pick between using a feat slot (horse master) and an under-leveled mount. If you want a little magic, a dip into paladin/antipaladin is a good option since both classes use charisma as one of the focus stats. I'm still watching.
Druid, hunter, and Wild Child Brawler all progress with the full druid AC options starting at first level. Paladin gets the horse as an option at what, 5th? Yes, I guess that would be the makeup of a heavier magic user, mounted build. It's workable given the combination of the smite and challenge (2 swift actions to setup but a lethal payoff).
Michael Grate wrote:
Yes, I guess that would be the makeup of a heavier magic user, mounted build. It's workable given the combination of the smite and challenge (2 swift actions to setup but a lethal payoff). Corset of Delicate Moves, from the Melee Tactics book, can fix this right up. You won't be able to charge on the first turn, but you can get everything set up and still have your swift next turn.
Cycada wrote: Michael Grate wrote:
Yes, I guess that would be the makeup of a heavier magic user, mounted build. It's workable given the combination of the smite and challenge (2 swift actions to setup but a lethal payoff). Corset of Delicate Moves, from the Melee Tactics book, can fix this right up. You won't be able to charge on the first turn, but you can get everything set up and still have your swift next turn. If you combine it with the Crusader's Tabard you could and both are PFS legal and relatively cheap.
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