Paladin with a Dragon Mount Build


Advice


Hello, right now my group and I are playing Rise of the Runelords campaign.

Right now I have a level 7 Human PC with 6 levels in Paladin and 1 level in Caviler. I have took the Oath of Vengeance archetype for my paladin so that I could have some extra smites while sacrificing some of my lay on hands per day. I took the Gendarme archetype for the extra feat it gave along with the no armor penalty to my ride checks as well as the mount it gives that stacks with my divine bond mount ability to give me an effective druid level for my dragon companion/mount.

My current feats right now(as well as future ones I plan to take) are by level:

1. Power Attack, Furious Focus(got this one for being a human)
3. Mounted Combat
5. Dragon Companion (from the Dragon Companion Hand Book)
7. Dragon Companion Mastery (make dragon large)
Ride-by Attack (lvl dip into Cavalier with Gendarme archetype)
9. Spirited Charge
11. Skill Focus (Survival)
13. Eldritch Heritage: Orc Bloodline 1st bloodline power: Touch of
Rage
15. Improve Eldritch Heritage: 2nd bloodline power: Strength of the
Beast
17. Greater Eldritch Heritage: 3rd bloodline power: Power of Giants
19. ????? (not sure if I will even make it to this lvl)

My primary equipment right now is Masterwork Full plate armor, Nodachi +2(plan to slap keen enchantment on it later,) Masterwork Lance, Amulet of Nautral Armor +1, Ring of Protection +1, and Ring of feather falling, belt of physical might in str and con +2, and an alluring headband of charisma +2. I have couple of bows for long range fighting in case I need them but they are not enchanted.

My stats are:

Str: 20
Dex: 12
Con: 15
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 18

I know that my PC is not min/max for battle but this is the build I am wanting to use. I want to keep taking lvls in paladin, but I am thinking of taking a lvl dip into the Mammoth Rider Prestige class to make my dragon huge. From what I have read Rise of the Runelords takes place in a lot enclosed spaces so that's why I am not taking anymore mounted feats after spirited charge. Plus I think the touch of rage ability will synergize well with my dragon. I heard that you can get up to lvl 16 or 17 at the end of the campaign.

I was just wanting some people to take a look at my build and give me your thoughts on it. Any ideas are welcome. Especially when it comes advice about feats and items.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hey Swordfalcon --

I think that I need to know more before I can advise you on future directions for you and your flying dragon (I'm still drooling over that, by the way...)

Do you have anywhere where your full character and your mount's stats are posted? I don't know enough about your 3rd party dragon to really advise you.

I that where you go with your character depends on your goals. I liked going with undersized mount and a medium companion with my character Nefertiti because Wedjat can fit anywhere she does.

Getting a gigantic dragon can be great in open spaces. You'll rule combat. It will be a lot harder when you go into underground or in heavily forested areas. Query: does your dragon buddy shapeshift? If so... wow.

If not, there are some options to consider. Paladins do get access to the spell Carry Companion, which is great for taking your buddy with you in places that it might not be allowed, or may have trouble fitting. The problem with this is that Paladins get so few spell slots. Still, it's a great option if you can afford a 2nd level wand or have a caster buddy.

You may also be able to convince a caster friend to cast reduce animal for you. You should also consider how you fight, and preferred weapons. Does your dragon buddy have reach? If so then paired opportunists and a reach polearm could be a great combination for you, allowing you both to take full advantage of attacks of opportunity.

If you do a lot of flying maneuvers, you might want to look at the third party book "Companions of the Firmament." It's slightly outdated (no mention of undersized mount feat) but it was great at describing flying maneuvers and how to grid in 3-D.

Remember that your flying buddy will want feats as well. Some people like to have hover -- I'm underwhelmed by the feat because I can usually make the DC 15 fly check -- but I love wingover feat. Just love it. Skill focus fly can help too, depending on what sort of flight your dragon buddy has. Some people like to go for other sorts of fighting feats depending on what their creature's fighting style is.


Hmm wrote:

Hey Swordfalcon --

I think that I need to know more before I can advise you on future directions for you and your flying dragon (I'm still drooling over that, by the way...)

Do you have anywhere where your full character and your mount's stats are posted? I don't know enough about your 3rd party dragon to really advise you.

I that where you go with your character depends on your goals. I liked going with undersized mount and a medium companion with my character Nefertiti because Wedjat can fit anywhere she does.

Getting a gigantic dragon can be great in open spaces. You'll rule combat. It will be a lot harder when you go into underground or in heavily forested areas. Query: does your dragon buddy shapeshift? If so... wow.

If not, there are some options to consider. Paladins do get access to the spell Carry Companion, which is great for taking your buddy with you in places that it might not be allowed, or may have trouble fitting. The problem with this is that Paladins get so few spell slots. Still, it's a great option if you can afford a 2nd level wand or have a caster buddy.

You may also be able to convince a caster friend to cast reduce animal for you. You should also consider how you fight, and preferred weapons. Does your dragon buddy have reach? If so then paired opportunists and a reach polearm could be a great combination for you, allowing you both to take full advantage of attacks of opportunity.

If you do a lot of flying maneuvers, you might want to look at the third party book "Companions of the Firmament." It's slightly outdated (no mention of undersized mount feat) but it was great at describing flying maneuvers and how to grid in 3-D.

Remember that your flying buddy will want feats as well. Some people like to have hover -- I'm underwhelmed by the feat because I can usually make the DC 15 fly check -- but I love wingover feat. Just love it. Skill focus fly can help too, depending on what sort of flight your dragon buddy has. Some people like to go for...

Thanks for the advise. First of my Gold Dragons stats are:

Str: 25
Dex: 12
Con: 20
Int: 14
Wis: 15
Cha: 14

Feats are Hover, Acrobatics feat: +2 to fly or the acrobatics skill, changes to a +4 after putting 10 skill ranks into it, Weapon focus(bite), needed to get a bonus dragon feat. It gets two bonus dragon feats which are Powerful bite (1.5 str bonus on bite) and Powerful breath(enemies will take half damage if they succeed on saving throws on dragon's breath attacks).

It has a fly speed of 120ft, Land speed of 40ft, 30ft with light armor on, and a 30ft swim.

My dragon takes a -6 penalty to its fly skill(-4 fly speed clumsy and -2 for large size.) I have 7 ranks into it because it is at level 7 right now, +3 bonus for it being a class skill of the dragon and a +2 from acrobatics feat and a +1 from my dex modifier. So 13-6 gives me a +7 to my fly skill checks right now.

My GM has allowed my dragon to have a 10ft reach bite attack because most large dragons get them in the pathfinder bestiary. And he has ruled that it get the polymorph ability(human form only) which can be used three times a day with no time limit, but the dragon does not have access to most of its powers and abilities in this form which makes it very vulnerable in battle in this form. He gave this to me because he does not want my dragon scaring town npc people. This is all a house ruling or considered homebrew. He has also ruled no third party material unless he approves it and I am already pushing my luck with him approving me to get the dragon in the first place.

My dragon companion is considered a dragon type for what spells can affect it. Only my paladin spells will affect my dragon companion because of the Share Spells ability I get for having an effective druid lvl from my divine bond ability I get for being a paladin. Other wise spells like Carry Companion would not work because my mount is a dragon type. What I mean is spells like animal growth, reduce animal and carry companion are worded to only affect animals or magical beasts in the rules governing the spells use and effect. My Gm is very strict when it comes to stuff like that. So only spells I have personnel access to will work on my dragon. That even leaves out magical items like wands and stuff because the spell is coming from an item and not my paladin.

I plan to charge with my dragon a lot if possible. I will be using a lance(10ft reach) and since my dragon has a 10ft bite attack both of us can attack on a mounted charge. So feats like power attack and furious focus will be a top priority. Wingover will also be a good canadite to take later on.

My dragon gets a 30ft breath attack. Since it is a gold dragon the breath attack is fire based. I get to add 1d6 of fire damage to every HD it has. And when it becomes large I get the frightful presence special ability which can be used once a day. It does take 1.5 from cold based attacks though. Since it is a dragon it is immune to sleep and paralysis effects. It gets a d12 HD (right now my dragon has 84 HP) Other dragons mentioned in the Dragon Companion Handbook may very in abilities and powers depending on their type.


Also there are slight differences in the Animal Companion Chart I use to level my dragon with than the normal one used for regular animal companions. Two big differences are it gets a lot more skill points than your average animal companion(hey its a dragon, its very smart) and also when it comes to getting the str/dex bonuses a regular animal complain gets from the chart I get it to str/con instead. Other than that everything else is pretty much the same stat wise.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If you both have reach, you seriously both need Paired Opportunists. I'm going to see if I can summon Magda Luckbender into this thread so that she can wow you with why this combo is killer with reach tactics.

Carry Companion is a spell you can personally cast. It will allow you to turn your dragon into a figurine that you can carry around. However, having your dragon be able to polymorph 3 times a day to human form is an amazing ability. It means that it can pretty much go anywhere you can. That's terrific.

BTW, is your dragon a he or a she? I don't like referring to dragons as it, especially when they turn into humans. They often get offended. BTW, does s/he have only a single human form, or is it unlimited? Can s/he pretend to be specific people the way kitsune do? I'm just imagining that sort of shenanigans with a Paladin... and giggling. Sorry.

Another person that you might want to have give you feedback on flying mounts is Just a Mort. Just a Mort helped me work out a lot of the planning for Nefertiti and Wedjat.

I'm thinking that one magic item you might want to invest in a Sable Company Elite Saddle -- provided you can afford it. It's 14K, but it's drool-worthy. Your dragon is a clumsy flier which will make flight checks painful. Given that it's such a clumsy flier, the hover feat is probably a good idea. This item will make it easier for you to do those quick mounts (for action economy) and it will get your dragon's flight skill up. Plus the feather fall option is NICE.

If you cannot afford the saddle, do consider at least an Equestrian belt for you and a skill boosting ioun stone for flight for your dragon buddy.

________________________________________________

EDITED because I looked up the Equestrian Belt, and you can't wear it with heavy armor. So Never Mind!


Hmm wrote:

If you both have reach, you seriously both need Paired Opportunists and Combat Reflexes. I'm going to see if I can summon Magda Luckbender into this thread so that she can wow you with why this combo is killer with reach tactics.

Carry Companion is a spell you can personally cast. It will allow you to turn your dragon into a figurine that you can carry around. However, having your dragon be able to polymorph 3 times a day to human form is an amazing ability. It means that it can pretty much go anywhere you can. That's terrific.

BTW, is your dragon a he or a she? I don't like referring to dragons as it, especially when they turn into humans. They often get offended. BTW, does s/he have only a single human form, or is it unlimited? Can s/he pretend to be specific people the way kitsune do? I'm just imagining that sort of shenanigans with a Paladin... and giggling. Sorry.

Another person that you might want to have give you feedback on flying mounts is Just a Mort. Just a Mort helped me work out a lot of the planning for Nefertiti and Wedjat.

I'm thinking that one magic item you might want to invest in a Sable Company Elite Saddle -- provided you can afford it. It's 14K, but it's drool-worthy. Your dragon is a clumsy flier which will make flight checks painful. Given that it's such a clumsy flier, the hover feat is probably a good idea. This item will make it easier for you to do those quick mounts (for action economy) and it will get your dragon's flight skill up. Plus the feather fall option is NICE.

If you cannot afford the saddle, do consider at least an Equestrian belt for you and a skill boosting ioun stone for flight for your dragon buddy.

________________________________________________

EDITED because I looked up the Equestrian Belt, and you can't wear it with heavy armor. So Never Mind!

Paired Opportunists and Combat Reflexes sounds like a nice combo, but one thing that may hurt me is both me and my dragon have a dex modifier of one not to mention that will take additional feat slots to do. I know I dipped in cavalier and they do get teamwork bonus feats but I gave that up when I archetyped into Gendarme to get the ride-by attack feat. I think I may lvl dip into fighter and take the two-handed fighter archetype for the Overhand Chop ability it gives. I also get two bonus combat feats which I am thinking will be Spirited Charge and Horn of the Criosphinx. I will have to take Boon Companion to make up for the lost effective druid lvls for my regular feat I get when I reach lvl 9. But with the Overhand chop ability and Horn of the Croishninix I will add 3x my str modifer to my damage when I do a mounted charge combined that with Sprited charge(oh my bob).

The dragon is a female, and when morphed takes the appearance of a female elf with black hair. My Gm chose this icon for her and I was OK with it. We play using my 73 inch dlp Mitsubishi TV hooked up to a laptop via Hdmi. My Gm has limited her to this appearance because he does not want to make the polymorph ability to powerful in case it could be abused. The way my gm wrote my dragon mount into the campaign as a side quest. We were approached by a dark haired female elf who hand a job for us. We took it, it was big dungeon with a bunch of kobolds and wyvern/human hybrids, I forgot the actual name of the enemy. The final boss was a rogue wyvern/human hybrid of this. That is how I got my Nodachi +2(was wanting a falchion, but hey this was just as good) and belt of phyical might +2. Afterwards my party was on the way back to town when we saw a body of a black dragon hit the ground in front of us and a gold dragon come in for the kill by sinking its teeth into the black dragon's neck and snap it. Then the dragon looked at us and changed into the female dark elf that gave us the job. Said that the one she wanted dead was not in the cave but we did well to make it this far. After that I was told to come with her and spent half of my downtime training to form a bond with a gold dragon and have her as my mount.

As for the saddle you recommended I will considered it, but even though my gm does not pay heed to the character wealth by level system I am still limited in what I can have because as you know gp is still limited and magic items cost out the wazu. Right now I have an exotic military saddle. I do have a ring of feather fall, happened to come across it in a magic item shop randomly and when my gm explained what it did I had to buy it.

I have to edit my dragon's fly speed, it is poor -4 and not clumsy which would be a -8. Sorry about that.

But again thanx for the advice.

The Exchange

I have been summoned...

*A wild Mort has appeared!*

I don't have the dragon companion handbook, so I will be giving advice based on a pure animal companion basis.

Some points to note:

a) What is the rest of your party made off? Do they mind a large creature blocking the frontlines?

b) Do you prefer charger route or you want to better protect your party using the reach AOO game?

If your party minds having a large creature hogging the front lines, your mount should pick up narrow frame, improved unarmed strike and dragon style(its a freakin dragon), so you can charge while occupying less space, if not, stay as whatever feats you have chosen.

For b) One thing about charges I've noticed in your build is after you charge, your next charge will take 2 rounds on the same target. If you want to go charging better, get wheeling charge, so you can charge every round. Ask the GM to let you retrain furious focus under ultimate campaign rules.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/wheeling-charge-combat-local

To play the reach AOO game, you will need undersized mount, so you can chug potions on enlarge person, and also combat reflexes and some pricey manuals to boost dex. Your mount will be unable to get AOOs though(nature of situation), so not sure if paired opportunist is that useful in this situation.

Escape route would be nice so both of you don't provoke AOOs while moving, but hey, you're a pally, so you can take it like a man :p

Belt of the weasel, for your lady. Now you can bring her everywhere!

Also, you have not done well by your mount. At least you should know her name (if its really dragonish and not pronounceable, at least a nickname). Also, does she prefer to go around as a dragon or an elf?

If she prefers to remain in dragon form, you need to invest in oil and brushes to make her scales pretty. Also ask her if she'd like any saddle decorations, consult her on barding design and colour.

If she prefers to go around as an elf, you have to bring her to all the plays, musicals and dances, so she can experience Golarion for the wonder it is ^^


Just a Mort wrote:

I have been summoned...

*A wild Mort has appeared!*

I don't have the dragon companion handbook, so I will be giving advice based on a pure animal companion basis.

Some points to note:

a) What is the rest of your party made off? Do they mind a large creature blocking the frontlines?

b) Do you prefer charger route or you want to better protect your party using the reach AOO game?

If your party minds having a large creature hogging the front lines, your mount should pick up narrow frame, improved unarmed strike and dragon style(its a freakin dragon), so you can charge while occupying less space, if not, stay as whatever feats you have chosen.

For b) One thing about charges I've noticed in your build is after you charge, your next charge will take 2 rounds on the same target. If you want to go charging better, get wheeling charge, so you can charge every round. Ask the GM to let you retrain furious focus under ultimate campaign rules.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/wheeling-charge-combat-local

To play the reach AOO game, you will need undersized mount, so you can chug potions on enlarge person, and also combat reflexes and some pricey manuals to boost dex. Your mount will be unable to get AOOs though(nature of situation), so not sure if paired opportunist is that useful in this situation.

Escape route would be nice so both of you don't provoke AOOs while moving, but hey, you're a pally, so you can take it like a man :p

A. Other party members are a stonelord paladin, elf ranger specializes in long range attacks with a large dire wolf, elf sorcerer that likes to burn things(a lot of things,) kitsune gunslinger, and a orc titan mauler barbarian. Mixed feelings in the group on large dragon, but mainly towards my paladin and me for being lawful good or lawful stupid as they like to say. lol

b. prefer charger route, but if I cant kill them with one charge I want to have my dragon finish them of and the touch of rage ability I plan to get will help that. Wheeling charge sounds great will have to pick that up. As for the others, like Narrow frame I don't know, my dragon is a dragon type and not an animal nor a magic beast. I may take 4 lvl dips into fighter for the bonus combat feats and pick up boon companion to make up for the lost druid lvls for dipping into fighter.

Belt of the Weasel, just found out about that the other day on another message board. Great idea

My dragon's full name is Darilth Champion of the Skies, we nicknamed her Dari for short while she is in elfin form.

I am just getting to know my dragon companion, I have only been in her company for a couple of play sessions and still learning about her.

This last play session I kinda stayed out of the fight because it took place in a large building, my mount could make it through, but both my team's orc barbarian and elf sorcerer, you know the pyromaniac, decided to rush in first and came across four enemies. The sorcerer used a burn spell with a large area effect without realizing the building was a wine or alcohol distillery and caused a large explosion. The sorcerer managed to dodge the damage from the explosion, our orc barbarian not so lucky and it took almost half of his hp I think. We healed him and the team investigated the rest of the building, the other half and came across a huge sized female human spider creature. Our orc barbarian decided to take an enlarge person potion and pretty much blocked the doorway to the creature and him and the sorcerer took it on by themselves. They were lucky it was so weak. Most large sized monsters will petty much mess up smaller creatures due to their reach. My paladin can speak from experience. Took quite the pounding from hydras, giants and even a large flesh golem wielding a large scythe that critted for x4 damage. Thank bob for the paladin spell Hero's Defiance or else my paladin wouldn't be alive to tell the tales.

Thanx for the advice.

The Exchange

Front lines looked quite packed with a stonelord, direwolf and orc in it. Think you should get the belt of the weasel, since narrow frame won't work.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt- of-the-weasel


Just a Mort wrote:

Front lines looked quite packed with a stonelord, direwolf and orc in it. Think you should get the belt of the weasel, since narrow frame won't work.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt- of-the-weasel

yeah, I agree with you on that, just got done editing my above post for that.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I love wheeling charge feat...

That is one of the problems with mounted characters. Always more feats that you want... And always more skill points that you could spend.


Ok I am considering taking 3-4 lvls into fighter to get more feats for my my dragon mount and me when it comes to charging. I am going to be taking at least Spirited Charge and Wheeling Charge for my first two bonus fighter feats. I should receive the overhand chop ability on 3rd lvl of fighter(two-handed archetype). 4th lvl I don't don't know, was thinking about horn of the croishpnix for the 3rd bonus feat but it doesn't stack with overhand chop, so not sure if I will take the 4th lvl dip or not. I will have to pick another combat feat I think is worth it.

I will have to take the boon companion feat to make up for the lost effective druid lvls for taking a 3 to 4 lvl dip into fighter to keep my dragon companion lvl with my pc lvl.

After that I will start lvl in paladin again(still planing on taking the eldritch heritage feat tree for the orc bloodline) unless someone can convince me another class is better for my build.

Do you think guys think I am multiclassing too much, some of my group seems to think so. I have read that it is bad for spell caster classes to do it but not so bad for martial classes which paladin, cavalier, and fighter are of.

Again any ideas are appreciated.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think you may be multiclassing too much. I love all the Paladin benefits that you get at higher levels. That said, I've seen some people be very happy with their multiclass fighter builds, especially at lower levels.

With you playing in a high level campaign, I think you'll be hurt by multiclassing more than you think.


Hmm wrote:

I think you may be multiclassing too much. I love all the Paladin benefits that you get at higher levels. That said, I've seen some people be very happy with their multiclass fighter builds, especially at lower levels.

With you playing in a high level campaign, I think you'll be hurt by multiclassing more than you think.

Can you explain a little bit more, After the 6 lvl it seems all that a paladin gets is auras, which I guess can be good but my paladin has extremely good saving throws thanks to my divine grace(plan on increasing my charisma too).

I know my lay on hands will suffer I plan on finding or buying a pair bracers of merciful knight for this.

My smites won't increase, but I have the oath of vengeance for this to get more if I need it. The only thing it really hurts is the bonus damage i get for my paladin lvl, but I would think the lvl dip into fighter and the feats I will take will make up for this.

My spell casting ability will pretty much suck, but then again a paladins spells aren't the greatest to begin with as well as the -3 he takes to his caster lvl. I have couple of hero's defiance which does come in pretty handy, but other than that I don't see myself casting alot of spells in the long run.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If you don't mind losing the scaling lay on hands and smites, and you've thought through the issue of spellcasting, then go ahead and multiclass. I think the key thing is to do a cost/benefits analysis.

Is what you're giving up worth less to you than what you gain by multiclassing? If your campaign isn't full of a lot of evil, it may even be to your advantage to take the fighter levels to get those bonus feats and be even more awesome with mounted combat.

Query: What class is your dragon mount tied to? If you dip fighter, will you lose the option of having it scale with you? I think you may want to build your character both ways in Hero Lab or some other character building software, and see how the damage compares between builds.

I do know that some mounted builds will dip fighter, Cavalier or monk to get the best combination of feats. The question of whether to do this is often a matter of personal preference. What is your vision for this character?

Hmm

PS I check Advice a lot on slow days. As a result, I don't require a PM to let me know this thread has been updated.


Hmm wrote:

If you don't mind losing the scaling lay on hands and smites, and you've thought through the issue of spellcasting, then go ahead and multiclass. I think the key thing is to do a cost/benefits analysis.

Is what you're giving up worth less to you than what you gain by multiclassing? If your campaign isn't full of a lot of evil, it may even be to your advantage to take the fighter levels to get those bonus feats and be even more awesome with mounted combat.

Query: What class is your dragon mount tied to? If you dip fighter, will you lose the option of having it scale with you? I think you may want to build your character both ways in Hero Lab or some other character building software, and see how the damage compares between builds.

I do know that some mounted builds will dip fighter, Cavalier or monk to get the best combination of feats. The question of whether to do this is often a matter of personal preference. What is your vision for this character?

Hmm

PS I check Advice a lot on slow days. As a result, I don't require a PM to let me know this thread has been updated.

OK thanks for the advice, your help has been a great benefit in directing my character build. Sorry about the pming, I will not do it any more.

I will do as you suggest and use character build software to see.

I will have to make my decision soon because my character may lvl up soon in the next couple of plays sessions.


swordfalcon wrote:
Hmm wrote:

If you don't mind losing the scaling lay on hands and smites, and you've thought through the issue of spellcasting, then go ahead and multiclass. I think the key thing is to do a cost/benefits analysis.

Is what you're giving up worth less to you than what you gain by multiclassing? If your campaign isn't full of a lot of evil, it may even be to your advantage to take the fighter levels to get those bonus feats and be even more awesome with mounted combat.

Query: What class is your dragon mount tied to? If you dip fighter, will you lose the option of having it scale with you? I think you may want to build your character both ways in Hero Lab or some other character building software, and see how the damage compares between builds.

I do know that some mounted builds will dip fighter, Cavalier or monk to get the best combination of feats. The question of whether to do this is often a matter of personal preference. What is your vision for this character?

Hmm

PS I check Advice a lot on slow days. As a result, I don't require a PM to let me know this thread has been updated.

OK thanks for the advice, your help has been a great benefit in directing my character build. Sorry about the pming, I will not do it any more.

I will do as you suggest and use character build software to see.

I will have to make my decision soon because my character may lvl up soon in the next couple of plays sessions.

I did some rethinking on it, multiclassing will hurt me in the long run, to get the wheeling charge feat, I will take Just a Mort's advice and retrain furious focus. This will hurt my attack roll a little bit but the bonus I get from a mounted charge should help negate that a little bit.

My party doesn't really have a dedicated healer pc right now, my lay on hands will get more important later. Plus the spells I get from paladin will help me go nuclear in case I come across a BBEG.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Great! Glad to be of help!


Just came up with a few feats I want my dragon companion, Dari to have. Here are the regular feats she has so far, as mentioned Dari's lvl advances like that of a normal animal companion's would with some minor differences, but still the same nonetheless for feats.

Feats by animal companion lvl

1. Skill focus: fly
2. Hover
5. Weapon focus(bite)
8. Wingover
10. Fly-by attack
13. Snatch

Not sure if I will make it past lvl 15, so this is what I got so far, I plan on charging with her so hence the feats for hover and wingover, as well as skill focus in fly especially because she takes penalties to her fly checks for being large and have poor maneuverability.

Weapon focus(bite) for one of the bonus dragon feats I get from the Dragon companion handbook to make my dragon's str mod be 1.5x when applied to the damage bonus.

I plan to make her huge later by taking a lvl dip into mammoth rider to make her huge. So she qualifies for the snatch feat.

Snatch feat

his creature can grab other creatures with ease.

Prerequisite: Size Huge or larger.

Benefits: The creature can start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, as though it had the grab ability. If it grapples a creature three or more sizes smaller, it squeezes each round for automatic bite or claw damage with a successful grapple check. A snatched opponent held in the creature's mouth is not allowed a Reflex save against the creature's breath weapon, if it has one.

The creature can drop a creature it has snatched as a free action or use a standard action to fling it aside. A flung creature travels 1d6 × 10 feet, and takes 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet traveled. If the creature flings a snatched opponent while flying, the opponent takes this amount or falling damage, whichever is greater.

Grab ability:

If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.

With this I can have Dari, with use of the fly-by feat grab the enemy whey she makes a bite or claw attack and is successful, start a grapple check and if successful move again even higher and when the next turn comes drop them or fling them for a massive amount of fall damage. I am pretty sure this can be used on a charge too.

Let me know if I am getting this wrong or not guys.

The Exchange

Massive amount of falling damage is not really feasible, it caps at 20d6 (60 dmg avg)

Flying upwards vertically requires a dc 20 fly check, and huge creatures take some pretty serious fly penalties.

As part of your grapple check you can move the target half your speed if you maintain grapple. Thus if you started next to the guy, round 1 you bite, then grapple.

round 2: standard action maintain grapple, you move him half your move speed, that will be 100 ft up into the air if you can make the dc 20 fly check (10d6 falling damage, avg of 30). At 25 str on large, 27 huge, your full round (bite, claw, claw), static would be +24, not considering any other damage dice you roll, not counting power attack. Also under fly rules, flying monsters can make a dc 25 fly check to negate falling damage.

You might want to watch what you snatch too - a rather extreme situation, but a large earth elemental weighs 6000 lbs. You cannot fly with wings if you're having more then light encumbrance. 27 str, quadped, huge or not, I don't see how you're going to take to the skies with THAT.

Some really impressive things in movies dont really translate that well to pathfinder :(


Just a Mort wrote:

Massive amount of falling damage is not really feasible, it caps at 20d6 (60 dmg avg)

Flying upwards vertically requires a dc 20 fly check, and huge creatures take some pretty serious fly penalties.

As part of your grapple check you can move the target half your speed if you maintain grapple. Thus if you started next to the guy, round 1 you bite, then grapple.

round 2: standard action maintain grapple, you move him half your move speed, that will be 100 ft up into the air if you can make the dc 20 fly check (10d6 falling damage, avg of 30). At 25 str on large, 27 huge, your full round (bite, claw, claw), static would be +24, not considering any other damage dice you roll, not counting power attack. Also under fly rules, flying monsters can make a dc 25 fly check to negate falling damage.

You might want to watch what you snatch too - a rather extreme situation, but a large earth elemental weighs 6000 lbs. You cannot fly with wings if you're having more then light encumbrance. 27 str, quadped, huge or not, I don't see how you're going to take to the skies with THAT.

Some really impressive things in movies dont really translate that well to pathfinder :(

I don't plan on making her huge until lvl 12, which is when I will take the mammoth rider lvl dip to make Dari huge. You make several good points. I may only use the snatch ability when I am on the ground, that way I can grapple with the opponent and keep them tied up. I plan on having her strength up to 30 by the time I make her huge. I kind of hesitate to take the power attack feat for Dari due to animal companions having the reduced bab compared to pc's especially those like my paladin. What feats would you recommend.

The Exchange

I think I need more information. How many attacks per round does dari have, do any of them have grab, and also what is the damage die for thrm all for dari for them?


Just a Mort wrote:
I think I need more information. How many attacks per round does dari have, do any of them have grab, and also what is the damage die for thrm all for dari for them?

Right now Dari has five attacks, bite(2D6), 2 Claws(1D8), and 2 Wings(1D6). If I read mammoth rider correctly, her attacks should increase, or base damage should go up by one size category when I make her huge. None of her attacks have the grab ability, hence why I was going to give her the Snatch feat when she became huge. If I do give her the Snatch feat, can it be used on a charge.


I just figured out how to give my dragon companion, Dari pounce by taking the evolved companion feat. Do you think that would be worth it, Just a Mort.

The Exchange

Huge is an irreversible change, even with belt of the weasel you still require large space, and your front lines are already packed. Its very dependent on the campaign, and I can't comment on that.

Sorry for being a wet blanket, but for charges, you must make your attack at the point of charge(if you get evolved companion).Which means at 10 ft(where the bite will reach, but the rest of the attacks will not).

It means you have to choose if you want both dari and you(with a lance), make single charge attack:

In which you will try to get improved unarmed strike, and dragon style.

You can drop weapon focus(bite), and fly by (I think ride by covers that).

If you grow huge, you can still charge, as dragon style lets you charge through difficult terrain Snatch is fine with grab on hit, but don't try to lift them into the air if they are still alive, next round just drop them as free action and full round them. Dari gains multi attack as per animal companion progression, correct? Else you may want to drop skill focus/snatch to get ut, so the wing attacks take only -2 penalty, instead of a -5.


Just a Mort wrote:

Huge is an irreversible change, even with belt of the weasel you still require large space, and your front lines are already packed. Its very dependent on the campaign, and I can't comment on that.

Sorry for being a wet blanket, but for charges, you must make your attack at the point of charge(if you get evolved companion).Which means at 10 ft(where the bite will reach, but the rest of the attacks will not).

It means you have to choose if you want both dari and you(with a lance), make single charge attack:

In which you will try to get improved unarmed strike, and dragon style.

You can drop weapon focus(bite), and fly by (I think ride by covers that).

If you grow huge, you can still charge, as dragon style lets you charge through difficult terrain Snatch is fine with grab on hit, but don't try to lift them into the air if they are still alive, next round just drop them as free action and full round them. Dari gains multi attack as per animal companion progression, correct? Else you may want to drop skill focus/snatch to get ut, so the wing attacks take only -2 penalty, instead of a -5.

Some things you say are quite true, when Dari becomes huge, all of her attacks will have a reach of 10ft and her bite attack will be 15 ft., since she already had a 10ft reach on bite for being large size. This is something me and my GM agreed on when I first got my dragon companion and then I discussed taking a dip into mammoth lord to make her huge. All of this is house ruled though.

Dari does not gain the multi-attack feat like other animal companions do, one of the slight differences in the dragon companion chart, only 2 out of her five attacks are going to be secondary, I will try to get past -5 by making up for by increasing her strength.

As for unarmed strike and dragon style I don't know yet, half of the effects of dragon style are redundant for Dari since she is already a dragon, although being able to charge though difficult terrain does sound appealing.

Don't dragon style and wheeling charge do the same thing for both me and Dari while I am mounted on her, which allows both of us to move though our allies squares while charging.

Thank again for all of your advice

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hmm wrote:
BTW, is your dragon a he or a she? I don't like referring to dragons as it, especially when they turn into humans. They often get offended. BTW, does s/he have only a single human form, or is it unlimited? Can s/he pretend to be specific people the way kitsune do? I'm just imagining that sort of shenanigans with a Paladin... and giggling. Sorry.

In Azeroth, the very male bronze dragon Chromastaus, takes on the form of a female gnome, Chromie.

The Exchange

Even worse, if daris reach is 15, you don't even get to use your lance because charge ends at 15 ft away. Unless you use lunge. If you remain large, with belt of weasel, you could possibly not require dragon style, but I'm not sure what will happen on huge, as after belt of weasel, you still require large space to charge.


Just a Mort wrote:
Even worse, if daris reach is 15, you don't even get to use your lance because charge ends at 15 ft away. Unless you use lunge. If you remain large, with belt of weasel, you could possibly not require dragon style, but I'm not sure what will happen on huge, as after belt of weasel, you still require large space to charge.

I thought of that too, and asked my GM about it. As you know the mounted combat rules are not the best and open to some interruption, especially when it comes to charging. After discussing it with my gm, he ruled since I was the one who initiated the charge then Dari would have to stop on the nearest space that I could attack on, but she would still get an attack with her bite since she has a natural reach, even if it is 15ft. I was surprised by this ruling, but my gm does not always rule something in my favor.


Been a while since I lasted posted on this thread. Right now I am at lvl 9 and fixing to hit lvl 10 soon. Probably at the end of my group's next play session or at the next one at most. My plans and build remain relatively unchanged with some minor tweaks. I do plan on taking oath against fiends next time I have some down time. I will also be retraining my cavalier archetype Gendarme into the Emissary one, but still keeping all of my feats if my calculations are right. My items are still pretty much the same, but with a few additions. I have around 12,500gp and have acquired these additional items. Bracers of falcon's aim, Impaler of Thorns, +1 Icy Burst Composite Long Bow, Eyes of the Owl, and a Ring of Continuation.

I want to slap keen on my +2 Nodachi and also put adaptive on my +1 icy burst composite long bow. I am thinking about also getting around 4 or 5 potions of enlarge person. That is going to pretty suck up the majority of the gp funds I have right now.

I will eventually put transformative on my +2 Nodachi, until then I am stuck using masterwork lance when I charge on Dari. I am debating on keeping the Ring of Continuation or just selling it and getting better equipment I want. The ring would be good for some of my paladin spells.

I do want to eventually get a set of +1 mithral full plate armor of speed with the armor of the deep ability added on to it. That should cost around 56,000gp. That's one of the reasons I am going with the Emissary Archetype so I can get my full movement in my full plate armor.

As for Dari, my GM ruled no magic belts due to the rules in animal archive, but magic saddles are fine. I also want to give her a set of +1 righteous studded leather barding after I make her huge via a lvl dip into Mammoth Rider. Stuff like dire collars and animal growth spell won't work on her because she is a dragon type and not an animal type based on the rules in the Dragon Companion Handbook. But I figured the righteous armor ability would.

Other than this I am open to suggestions.

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