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Two-handed fighting encourages Strength, while the rogue's skills and armor assume a high Dexterity. Make sure you know what you're doing, ability-score wise.
If possible, talk to your GM about a product called Pathfinder Unchained. There's a version of the rogue in there that adds a lot to the original, including the ability to add your Dexterity modifier to damage instead of Strength.
As a half-elf, you can trade away your free Skill Focus for proficiency with an exotic weapon. The elven curve blade might be worth looking at, especially if you use the Unchained Rogue.
Ask what everyone else is playing. Making sure your team works well together is especially important for a new group, and a rogue is reliant on teammates in a big fight (to flank and get sneak attacks).
Any questions so far?
my opinion, for a first time gamer, build a character you like. If you want to play a two handed fighting rogue, that is great, ask yourself why they prefer a two handed weapon? What makes them a rogue? Are they a thug, a merc, an enforcer? Do they hit first and ask question later, or are they more hide in the shadows and go for the silent kill? I would also look at what your character is bad at, this can help with making them a more rounded character?
I would take the answers to these questions and build your basic character. If you are very new to the game just use the core rulebook for feats and stuff, as you get more advanced use the Advance players Guide, and other books to hone your character.
There are some very nice dual scimitar wielding half-elf miniatures out there.
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FLANK FLANK FLANK FLANK FLANK FLANK FLANK
Flanking is the thing you want to do as a rogue. You love flanking. Flanking is your favorite thing to do.
When you and your teammate stand on opposite sides of an enemy, you get a +2 bonus to an attack roll, which makes you more likely to hit.
Not only are you more likely to hit, as a rogue, you get to deal extra damage to an enemy you are flanking, through sneak attack.
Right now I should clarify that the name 'sneak attack' is kind of misleading and you should forget about whatever assumptions you have about sneak attacks from other games. You do not need to be in stealth to make a sneak attack. The enemy does not have to be unaware of you. A rogue deals sneak attack damage whenever the enemy is denied a dexterity bonus to their AC or when you are flanking the enemy.
at level 1 the sneak attack damage is 1d6 added to your damage roll. This adds up as you gain more level At a mere rogue level 5, your sneak attack damage becomes 3d6. That's more than a greatsword's damage (2d6). As you can see, the rogue very quickly becomes a formidable force when they have friends.
And that is why flanking is your favorite thing in the whole wide world and you should take any opportunity you can to flank.
So you're saying I need to flank? ha. Thanks for the advice Anuis, the explanation of sneak attacks a big help. I wasn't expecting so many replies so quickly.
No problem! I wish someone told me this, so I am telling you.
Always be sure to review the rules whenever you are unsure of something or catch yourself making assumptions. The lesson to be learned here is don't do what I did and waste your 24-dex weapon finesse rogue's potential because you assumed that sneak attack was the same general thing as in Elder Scrolls.
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Two-weapon fighting, eh? I was wondering about that. ^_^
In that case, you can go ahead and pump up your Dexterity. There's no specific exotic weapon you'll need, so the Ancestral Arms thing is less important - I'd get Skill Focus (Acrobatics) instead. The Acrobatics skill is your best way to get through crowded situations, so always keep it high.
The Unchained rogue is still a straight upgrade, but remember that the Dexterity bonus to damage is halved for an off-hand weapon, just like Strength would be. Your GM might allow you to take the Double Slice feat.
Feats - If you're not an Unchained rogue, your first feat should almost certainly be Weapon Finesse. Otherwise, you can start with Two-Weapon Fighting.
Skills - definitely take Acrobatics, Perception, Disable Device, and Stealth. Use Magic Device is also excellent. Beyond that, you have plenty of options to shape your character's skill set.
Talents (at 2nd level) - you can pick up Weapon Training if you have trouble hitting. Combat Trick is good if you see a combat feat you can't wait for. Finally, Trap Spotter can be a huge help - catch those traps placed where you least expect them!
Thoughts?
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Regarding Stealth - it's likely that your entire team will not have Stealth. This may present some issues.
If you go scouting ahead, remember that you may be spotted and cut off. Try to have a plan for this, such as a potion of invisibility.
If you can somehow convince your whole team to pick up Stealth (unlikely), try to convince them to take the Stealth Synergy feat. This allows you to pick the best d20 roll your group got, and have each person treat that as their roll.
This reduces the chance of a bad roll getting someone spotted. Even two of you with Stealth can take it, if you want to go tandem-scouting.
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Thanks again! I will definitely keep the unchained rogue option in mind. I think at first we are all just going with Core classes etc until we get the grip of things.
Feeling rather pleased with myself, from the bits of reading I have done I had jotted down Acrobatics, Perception, Disable Device, and Stealth as the skills to go for.
Noted those talents, I had also ear marked Resilience as quite important? Would you agree?
Fair enough. It wouldn't be that hard to retrofit the character later, if necessary. ^_^
Resiliency doesn't give enough HP at early levels to keep you alive - at 2nd level, the 2 hp you gain will only keep you alive in a very narrow window. I'd leave that one until a higher level, and see what you think then.
Any advice on what equipment , skills, talents etc to go for right at the beginning?
If you're committed to a two-handed weapon, a high strength score is your friend.
A single handed weapon adds your strength bonus to the damage roll.
But, a double-handed weapon adds your strength bonus and a half to the damage roll. So say you have a +4 strength bonus--when you wield a spear, your damage is 1d8+6. And if you make a sneak attack, you add on the sneak attack damage, which is another d6 or more!
A rogue with a high strength score is a beautiful thing to behold.
EDIT: wait apparently you mean two-weapon fighting my bad
But do not compromise your dexterity, which is the ability score that governs stealth, sleight of hand and disable device; your skills of the trade. As rogue, your role in the party is likely to perform stealth, sleight of hand, disable device etc checks so the chumps in your party don't have to. You will also want a high dexterity for your AC, as wearing thick armor will do a number to your much needed strength- and dex-based skill checks. So select armor with an armor check penalty of 0 if at all possible. I do not recommend going above -1.
As a rogue, you are a little more naked in close quarters than other melee classes, so I recommend you have a ranged weapon as a backup, and do not be afraid to retreat. (remember that to take a full-round action to Withdraw from the enemy does not incur an attack of opportunity from the foe next to you!) Get a composite shortbow if you can since they allow you to add some strength bonus to the damage roll, but they can get expensive.
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So select armor with an armor check penalty of 0 if at all possible. I do not recommend going above -1.
As a rogue, you are a little more naked in close quarters than other melee classes, so I recommend you have a ranged weapon as a backup, and do not be afraid to retreat. (remember that to take a full-round action to Withdraw from the enemy does not incur an attack of opportunity from the foe next to you!) Get a composite shortbow if you can since they allow you to add some strength bonus to the damage roll, but they can get expensive.
Armor advice is good! I haven't got round to doing much reading on that yet.
Could you possibly explain what you mean by 'full round action'? Sorry not totally used to all the terms yet. One thing I read (I can't remember where) suggested rather than a range weapon as back up, a long spear can be good for keeping yourself further from damage and help survive, would that be something you agreed with? Also as main weapons, would you just go for two short swords?
A full round action takes your entire turn - so the withdrawal is all you can do. Making multiple attacks is a full-round action as well, so two-weapon fighting only works once you're in position.
Using two of the same weapon when two-weapon fighting is a very good idea - it means you get the effect of Weapon Focus and similar effects on both.
Regarding longspears, remember that you can only use your Dexterity to hit with ranged weapons and light weapons (plus weapons that specifically allow it) - this assumes Weapon Finesse. That said, remember what I was saying about Ancestral Arms?
An interesting approach- see if you can get a familiar.
This can be an intersting choice since it can serve as a flank buddy, allowing you to get sneak attack without having to wait for a friend to do so.
Not going into all the options and such now, since a lot of them involve complex and non-core stuff, but I will give some of them if there is interest.
Cause who doesn't want a small, adorable pet when you are stabbing enemies in the kidneys?
Another interesting topic- Reach weapons, such as the long spear. As you mentioned before, they can be VERY effective for protecting yourself, but you would be surprised how much depth there is when you start to control an area. Reach builds are often highly effective, and one of the best ways to go with 2 handed weapons.
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A "feat chain" usually refers to feats that must be taken sequentially.
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack.
Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Greater Disarm.
What Rerednaw was describing isn't really a feat chain, so much as a "build" - an assembly of feats that will allow you to use a specific set of tactics. In this case, that would be Dexterity-based Two-Weapon Fighting.
(I don't know that I agree with some of the suggested feats as essential, but that's a separate discussion.)
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Oof two weapon fighting. Good luck mate.
If you want to make a TWF Rogue I would highly recommend taking this trait if your GM allows it:
Serpent Runner
Source Varisia, Birthplace of Legends pg. 31 (Amazon), Shattered Star Player's Guide pg. 5
You’ve participated in the mock gladiatorial battles and athletic feats at the Serpent’s Run, Magnimar’s grand hippodrome, but the safe nature of those games leaves you bored. Seeking greater thrills and tests of your abilities, you’ve pledged your arms and skill to the local Pathfinder lodge. Choose one of the following benefits to represent the techniques you learned from your time at the Serpent’s Run:•Choose a specific type of armor. When wearing armor of that type, you treat its armor check penalty as if it were –1 lower.
•When fighting with two weapons, the penalty imposed on your primary weapon is reduced by 1.
•You gain a +2 trait bonus on Intimidate checks to demoralize opponents.
Along with the Weapon Focus feat you can break even on your TWF penalties for your primary weapon and only have a -1 for your secondary weapon. That's about as good as you can hope for at level 1.
Also, as mentioned above, you are going to want the Unchained Rogue if your GM will allow it. A much stronger option than the Core Rule Book Rogue.
You've been graced by the presence of Shadowlord! His shadowy favor is with thee! Godspeed young rogue.
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Take a look at these resources:
Pathfinder Reference Document
D20 Pathfinder System Reference Document
Archive of NethysThe PRD is maintained by the Paizo staffers, and has all official material and rules. It does not contain separate module, player companion books, or adventure path things.
The PFSRD is maintained by other people, and contains what's on the PRD as well as other Paizo materials published in separate modules, player companion books, and adventure paths and such. It also contains 3rd party material. Some names of feats and classes are changed for copyright reasons.
The Archive of Nethys is maintained by some guy, and contains pretty much everything except the rules published in the books.
These are all great resources. To prevent system shock and keep things easy for you and your fellow players, I'd start with just the PRD for a while. It contains only content from the hardcover rulebooks (and a couple of outliers).
If you plan to use d20pfsrd, I suggest asking your GM how he feels about third-party materials first - you'll run into an awful lot of that on d20pfsrd, and it sucks to find something awesome only to be shot down by your GM.
Many many thanks!! all those resources bookmarked. I am seeing my GM today for a little tipple and discuss anything we want clearing up before starting later in the week, so I will enquire whether we are sticking to the core rule book or not. I imagine this time we will be.
If the GM says core only then try to get them to allow Unchained Rogue on the basis that the normal rogue is really weak.
If the GM still says no, offer to buy pizza the first night or perform some other personal favors. Don't take no for an answer.
Or, if you prefer to have some shred of dignity, make your core rogue, but understand the following:
1) Without enormous amounts of careful optimization, the core rogue is mediocre to horrible at pretty much everything other than picking a lock. And picking a lock is frequently not the best way to approach a problem
2) With enormous amounts of careful optimization, the core rogue is semi-competent, and no more.
Since everyone else is inexperienced as well, being semi-competent isn't too bad. The only issue is that if another player decides to look up a class guide they might very well blow you out of the water in most of your areas of semi-competency. That's why I recommend Unchained Rogue so much - it still has major problems, but extreme optimization actually brings you to the lofty heights of "decent so long as other party members don't make an effort to directly compete for parts of your niche".
Mind you, competing for the rogue's niche isn't exactly difficult. Sneak attack is just damage, and swinging with a two handed weapon will usually beat it out. Stealth can be accomplished by a Ranger or a wizard's buffed familiar as well better than the rogue. There are so many ways to bypass locks and traps without needing to roll disable device it isn't funny, and many of them have no risk of getting your face splattered when you flunk out on a roll and trigger a trap. The rogue is only average at perception when not looking for traps, and wisdom based classes can easily beat it out even against traps, especially ones with plenty of skill points like the ranger or druid. The rogue suffers from the "Jack of All Trades" problem, where most of the jobs it can do can probably be done better by another class in the same party. This won't be as likely early on when the other players are playing unoptimized PCs who don't do all the things they easily could, but you may find later on that you start feeling less and less useful when other PCs start becoming more and more competent at the roles in their niche. Honestly, the best way to handle this is to tell the GM that you might end up useless as other players make their characters, and get the go ahead to change characters if and when this happens and you stop having fun.
As for how to actually build your character, there are two main ways off the top of my head to make a competent CRB. The first is the standard TWF(two weapon fighting) dex build, that piles on sneak attacks in flank but can't be effective outside it. The second is being cute and playing something like a half-orc with racial proficiency in the Falchion and Greataxe and sneak attacking dudes in a chainshirt with a giant machete or axe...which isn't actually a bad build, because you don't need the TWF dex feat taxes (meaning feats that you absolutely need to function) and aren't completely dependent on sneak attacking- the extra d6s are just gravy on top of your delicious two handed power attacking damage. Lets assume for the moment that you are going with the half-elf dagger enthusiast. I will assume a 15 point buy since that is what the CRB treats as default, but almost everyone who uses point buy goes with at least 20 (including Pathfinder Society(PFS), which is the name for officially sanctioned organized play for the Pathfinder RPG). So...build time. Assuming level 1, by the way.
Point buy(15 points):
Super optimized dump statx3 options
7 Str, 20 Dex, 14 Con, 9 int, 12 wis, 7 Cha OR 7 Str, 20 Dex, 16 Con, 7 int, 10 wis, 7 Cha
More "balanced" (but probably worse overall) option
10 str, 18 dex, 14 con, 12 int, 12 wis, 7 cha, you could drop str, int or wis by 2 to increase Cha, but I wouldn't
The super optimized options might seem extreme, but...
*Until you can get mithral gear, the weight of decent armor is going to be prohibitive even with 10 str unless you want to walk around with nothing but studded leather and a couple of daggers. You can probably squeeze in leather armor if you watch your carried weight carefully, but don't worry about getting anything better until you can afford a bag of holding/handy haversack and mithral armor
*Charisma does almost nothing. Seriously. Unless you are a class that has things that care about charisma, like a Bard or a Paladin. Then it is amazing. That's just the way the game works. Unless you are maxing every single social skill already, you are better off taking all the points you can from Cha and putting them into Int and something else.
*Rogues have so many skill points that Intelligence isn't actually that great. It isn't terrible, but 6 skill points per level is plenty. The talents Minor Magic and friends aren't very good unless you use the Unchained version (and then you aren't so desperate for a high dex, so that changes everything).
*Rogues desperately need attack bonuses. Every other class either gets a higher Base Attack Bonus, other things that boost their attack like Bard's Inspire Courage, or don't actually need to fight in melee. Some are two or three of these. I don't actually like running 20 in a stat, because it costs so much, but the rogue does need it's bonuses more than anything else. Bear that in mind.
*Wisdom doesn't do much, but it affects will saves. Will is the most important save, and rogues are terrible at it. So you need a decent wisdom. Possibly pick up Iron Will later on. Let me just emphasise how important Will is. Early on, Reflex will trip or at worst stop you moving around, Fort will stagger you, and Will will knock you out or convince you to knock out your companions for you new best friend. Later on, it becomes Reflex will at worst take you out of the fight, fort will usually effectively kill you, and will will turn you into a meat puppet who kills their allies and then the lovely winged demon lady grapples you and...yeah, Will is important. Make sure you keep it up.
The rest of the character is reasonably easy. You absolutely need weapon finesse as your first feat, or your attacks are going to suck. Don't start using two weapons at once until second level, when you can take the combat trick talent and get Two Weapon Fighting(without the feat the penalties are too horrific). Take a couple of daggers because they are light and cheap and even if you aren't two weapon fighting a backup is nice to have. Maybe a Rapier if you want a weapon with a little more damage. Light Crossbow and bolts if you can afford it. Also consider bringing a Light Mace so you have a good weapon against skeletons(daggers can slash or pierce so all you need to have all the damage types is a bludgeoning weapon). Work out how much more weight you can afford(You can dump a pack filled with noncombat stuff before combat, so only count what you want on you in a fight), and get the best light armor you can that doesn't put you over into medium encumbrance (or no armor if all of them would). Skills are simple since you can only get max 1 rank in each at level 1. Get perception, disable device, Stealth and whatever else floats your boat. Acrobatics is OK, but using it in combat is a big risk. Social skills are nice, but you probably don't want to bother much with them if there is a bard, for example. Other than that, load up on some misc junk like rope and food so you can be a prepared adventurer, and maybe spend what's left on a pack animal so you have something to carry all your junk (this is optional if you have a strong party member who is willing to lend you some of their ginormous carry capacity). Stick your racial Skill focus into your skill of choice. I would do either Use Magic Device or Perception (because perception is the most important skill, and UMD is amazing later on), but that's up to you. Then slap on a name and think of a backstory for your newly minted backstabber, and I believe you are done.
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Carefully read the rules (including FAQs) on two-weapon fighting. Be aware that the penalties only apply when you are actually using the second weapon to get an extra attack. Don't penalise yourself when you're not doing that.
See how it goes. Don't worry too much about crafting a character with perfect synergy of abilities, weapons, feats, and class features. Find a balance that feels about right to you and run with it. Try to get the GM to agree to a right to rebuild once you're all a bit more used to the rules.
And have fun: that's the point of the game. The rogue is a support character, offering a variety of out-of-combat abilities combined with a way to help with damage in combat (they are epically not a front-line combatant). Try to play smart and plan your moves in fights to add value to the party (flanking is your friend).
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I have a few things here, so I'm just going to put them in an artless laundry list. For qualification, I'm covered in salt, work in demolition, and I've made at least one rogue that I was sober for.
1. It's been brought up at least once, but I can't stress enough how much you want to use the Pathfinder Unchained rogue over the standard rogue. It's a pure upgrade, and it is far, far more functional than the standard rogue. There's no game balance reason your GM shouldn't let you use it. Pathfinder Unchained also upgraded a number of rogue talents that were otherwise lacking. The best part? The class is totally compatible with everything the standard rogue is compatible with. The rogue unchained makes me happy.
2. The nature of the rogue's sneak attack class feature means two things: You want to get a lot of attacks and you want to be flanking ALL THE TIME. ALL TIME. EVER TIME. FLANK TIME ALL TIME DO FLANK FLANK. Sneak attack doesn't have a use limit, and you get it every time you're in the situation to get it, so you want to get it with every attack you possibly can. This is why rogues do well with two weapon fighting, as they get extra attacks. They can stack up all that sneak attack damage. The decrease in accuracy from two weapon fighting is basically offset by the extra damage dice from sneak attack. What's more, when two weapon fighting, you want to use two of the same weapon because any weapon specific bonuses (like weapon focus) will apply to both of them. Talk to the guy who plays the fighter (or barbarian or cavalier or whatever. The guy who beats things up) and come up with some strategies to work in tandem so you can get into flanking positions better. See if he's willing to take the outflank teamwork feat with you for an extra bonus while flanking. Talk to your wizard or cleric or druid and get him to summon things opposite your target. For extra shenanigans, get him to summon something with trip. Hell, you might want to take the improved trip line yourself if you're willing to take the awful combat expertise feat. Tripping things makes them far more vulnerable to melee attacks, and they provoke attacks of opportunity when they get up.
3. Don't take powerful sneak or deadly sneak. As Admiral Akbar said, "IT'S A TRAP!" Do take combat trick, weapon training, and ninja trick. Those are nice. You want to be as accurate as possible. If you go for the rogue unchained, you can achieve this through debilitating your opponent. If you go for the standard rogue, you should squeeze out every bonus to hit that you can.
4. Use your skills to support your party as best you can. Rogues are ok in combat, they can do some heavy damage, but you want to use your skills as much as possible to keep your party out of danger and help them work their way around obstacles. Keep your perception skill maxed out. The ability to notice things is extremely important, and you'll be using perception more than any other skill.
5. If you want to really squeeze out more sneak attack damage, might I suggest the knife master archetype? They get d8 sneak attack dice instead of d6 when using daggers.
*out of breath*
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*catches breath*
6. What frequently helps me is to come up with a clear design idea irrespective of the class system, and then use the class that best fits my idea for a character and their abilities. You might find that when you have your character idea fleshed out that he'd make a better bard than a rogue, or a better barbarian than a fighter.
7. On the flip side of that, don't let class abilities hamper your creativity. Remember, you can flavor your abilities basically however you want. A trained soldier can be a fighter just as easily as he can be a barbarian.
Ok I'm done. Back to Bloodborne.
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5. If you want to really squeeze out more sneak attack damage, might I suggest the knife master archetype? They get d8 sneak attack dice instead of d6 when using daggers.
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Not core, sadly.
Neither is Ninja Trick, for that matter. Ninjas are definitely non-core. Weapon training is a good idea, though. You need all the bonuses you can get, and Weapon Focus(Dagger) is a straight +1 to all your rolls
Other decent talents that are CRB are...
Trap Spotter...maybe? It depends on how your GM runs perception checks and how many traps are there. You should probably get a perception check for any trap to notice the visible parts of it, so the talent just gives you a second roll, but a lot of GMs won't always give you that unless you actively search. And of course, if you don't see many traps, don't bother. YMMV on that one.
Fast Stealth isn't terrible if you like moving around all sneaky like.
If you run out of other options, resiliency is basically crappy Toughness. It isn't very good, but at least it could come in handy.
Just to emphasise the point, powerful/deadly sneak are horrifically bad. Which one would you rather have:5 hits for an average of 15.5 damage each, or 4 hits for 16.2 damage each. By the way, that isn't an exaggeration. I did the math. Based on typical numbers, that's roughly what happens (numbers are for level 7). Powerful Sneak is a joke. Deadly is a little better, but IIRC you still need to be hitting 18 out of 20 times or so for it to not be actively making you worse. Oh yeah, and it eats an advanced talent, and there are enough of them for you to not need to take filler crap like that, even if CRB only(although you probably won't still be CRB only by then).
If you ever get through to high enough level to pick advanced talents, it gets a little less weaksauce. You can pick up a bonus feat, a free reroll on enchantments and half damage on all effects that involve a reflex save for half. All of which are at least decent.
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5. If you want to really squeeze out more sneak attack damage, might I suggest the knife master archetype? They get d8 sneak attack dice instead of d6 when using daggers.
...Not core, sadly.
Neither is Ninja Trick, for that matter. Ninjas are definitely non-core. Weapon training is a good idea, though. You need all the bonuses you can get, and Weapon Focus(Dagger) is a straight +1 to all your rolls. . .
Look man they're rogue talents I don't have much to work with here cut me some slack I'm trying to keep the guy from standing up as a free action while holding his breath.
But yes, it would certainly be helpful to know if "core" means the CRB or the core line of books.
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5. If you want to really squeeze out more sneak attack damage, might I suggest the knife master archetype? They get d8 sneak attack dice instead of d6 when using daggers.
...Not core, sadly.
Neither is Ninja Trick, for that matter. Ninjas are definitely non-core. Weapon training is a good idea, though. You need all the bonuses you can get, and Weapon Focus(Dagger) is a straight +1 to all your rolls. . .
Look man they're rogue talents I don't have much to work with here cut me some slack I'm trying to keep the guy from standing up as a free action while holding his breath.
But yes, it would certainly be helpful to know if "core" means the CRB or the core line of books.
CRB-only, generally. ^_^
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5. If you want to really squeeze out more sneak attack damage, might I suggest the knife master archetype? They get d8 sneak attack dice instead of d6 when using daggers.
...Not core, sadly.
Neither is Ninja Trick, for that matter. Ninjas are definitely non-core. Weapon training is a good idea, though. You need all the bonuses you can get, and Weapon Focus(Dagger) is a straight +1 to all your rolls. . .
Look man they're rogue talents I don't have much to work with here cut me some slack I'm trying to keep the guy from standing up as a free action while holding his breath.
But yes, it would certainly be helpful to know if "core" means the CRB or the core line of books.
I know you don't have much to work with. The above list was literally the best I could come up with, and I was stretching. I just don't want to let the poor new player get all exited at all the cool ninja stuff they want to take before being informed by the GM that it isn't core, so it isn't game. He is already playing a CRB rogue. He doesn't need another kick in the balls.
I would assume that core means the CRB. I doubt the GM would use it to mean core line, because in that case the GM would almost certainly explain what that means to the batch of completely fresh players. The lack of explanation signifies that core means core rule book, which is self explanatory enough that the GM probably won't bother elaborating further.
I would hope so. I glossed over OP's last post. "This time we probably will be" is pretty clear, so I am become fart.
Yeah, when resiliency is on the short list for best core rogue talents, there's a problem.
But I don't want to turn this into a rogue problems thread.
Which is what everyone says before every rogue problems thread.
*glances at popcorn*
Encourage your allies to use the 5-foot step action as often as they can. They might not get a flank out of it, but it might allow you to move in to a flank on your turn.
to be honest, it all depends on the kind of character you want to play as well as your role in the party. generally they're not the best in combat, they can do a lot of damage with enough set up and help from your party members, but to be honest, its like Hawkeye asking the Hulk to hold a guy still so he can put an arrow in him. it'd probably more effective to just let the hulk smash the guy. thats a frequent problem that happens a lot with rogues, they rely to much on teamwork and half the time, the barbarian wasting his turn helping the rogue get into position instead of smashing the thing himself is the worser of two options. This is the problem I find with two weapon fighting rouges.
one of the things that defines rouges isn't just there sneak attack, but its there skills. what skills your character focuses on will really define them. and of cause what skills you focus on will often decide how you divvy up your ability scores.
also, I don't know if you're only using the Core Rule Book. but if you're allowing other books, they offer some really cool archetypes that might be worth a look.
for example, one type of rogue I like to play is a high charisma rogue. kind of a fast talking charmer type. although a word of warning. this type of rogue becomes pretty pointless if you have a bard or a sorcerer in your party, pretty much anyone with a high charisma mod. this type of character makes the best Face of the party. the one who talks on behalf of the party.
STR: 7
DEX: 18
CON: 12
INT: 13
WIS: 9
CHA: 14
The feats to look at for this kind of build would be
Combat Expertise
Weapon Finesse
Improved Feint
Weapon Focus
Slashing Grace
at level one you get you free feat, and I'd choose Combat Expertise
at second level you can select the rogue talent, Finesse rogue.
at third level you get another feat. I'd go with Improved feint.
now the reason why you'd want improved feint is that, as a move action you can make a bluff check to get your target off guard and then attack with your sneak attack. at level 3 that means that you'd get to deal an extra 2d6. the reason this is good is because you have a character now that can effectively use there sneak attack without having to rely on the rest of the party.
now the Weapon finesse and slashing grace combo are good because as a rogue, you probably wouldn't have high strength. and these two feats let you use dex instead. weapon finesse lets you use your dex mod instead of your str when determining whether or not your attack hit. and slashing grace lets you use your dex to damage. the only downside is that you must have a free hand and the weapon selection that can be used with these two feats are pretty slim.
a good alternative to having to spend two feats for slashing grace and weapon focus is to get a magical Agile Weapon. Agile Elven curved swords are fantastic. but agile weapons tend to be pretty expensive, it would be great to get one for level 4.
this is just idea of a fun rogue but there are as many idea's as there are players. I'm sure there are as many ideas as there are players.