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The Grand Lodge Scriptorium uses slave labor to pen the Pathfinder Chronicles. (Indeed, we remove the tongues of the people we purchase on the slave blocks and then we place them under a life-long gaes to copy any printed material set before them.) So long as your PC is a Pathfinder, and he hasn't freed the Society's own slaves back there, you shouldn't get your knickers in too much of a twist.I don't believe that fact is common knowledge. They are kept in a locked, windowless building. Most Pathfinders don't know what occurs in there--it's part of the Ten's mysteries.Yeah. Things I'm going to assume my character doesn't know.
And wish I didn't.
Edit: Cause, whatever the arguments for slavery not being evil under some circumstances, that's sick.
I'm really tempted to create a mute character now that was able to 'edge' the geas to write a manumission transcript and add their name to it....
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Yes, there are in fact certain parts of canon that must be ignored to justify non-evil characters in the Pathfinder Society.Two reminders:
1) The Grand Lodge Scriptorium uses slave labor to pen the Pathfinder Chronicles. (Indeed, we remove the tongues of the people we purchase on the slave blocks and then we place them under a life-long gaes to copy any printed material set before them.) So long as your PC is a Pathfinder, and he hasn't freed the Society's own slaves back there, you shouldn't get your knickers in too much of a twist.
Ya know, I've been thinking about this and while I have no idea where it comes from, this has got to be one of the worst things in the whole setting. First, it's just pointlessly evil for evil's sake.
Second, it's stupid. Just completely idiotic. Like "who gave Snidely Whiplash a Decemverate Helm?" dumb. One, "lifelong geas?" Geas/quest is a sixth level spell lasting up to one day/level, so they've either got an 11th level spellcaster spending all their spell slots recasting this on these guys, or an even higher level one who researched up a custom spell to do this instead of like inventing a writing golem or something.
Two, "I know! We'll cut out their tongues so these guys who spend all their time writing stuff down can't blab our secrets!" "Great idea Snidely!"
Three, to quote the Inner Sea World Guide, pg. 257:
"Among the finest of technological treasures is the printing press.."
Printing press.
Printing press.
Printing press.
The exists in the setting.
It's all just so stupid.
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Who says that the scribes are not just criminals that had no chance of being "free"? I mean; "Oh look Mr Murderer, you did these unspeakable things. So because of that, we're going to cut out your tongue and sell you to the Society for your crimes."
Well why don't we ask them what they did...
Oh right....
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It's not possible that in a world with legal slavery, someone might think "My fictional character might own a slave?"
"It's what my character would do!"
You should know as well as I do, that three ARE players with exactly that mentality that Dave describes. He didn't say that ALL would=be slave owners have that mentality, but that doesn't mean that NONE of them do.
Men like to wave their pricks around, this is one way of doing it.
I've seen threads about this here many times, and heard many discussions offline about it, and in virtually all of them someone brings up "pissing off Andorens" as a benefit of slave ownership. This thread is really the only one I can think of that didn't start that way. (The OP, to his credit, mentions "creat[ing] a problem with Liberty's Edge characters" as a bad thing.)
Of course, later on we have:
Last weekend, we traveled through a slave market for one of our Pathfinder missions. Knowing we had two members of the Liberty's Edge in the party, I went up to them, pushed them ahead of me, and said "Go on, have your fun."
They immediately began making impassioned speeches against slavery, inspiring the downtrodden slaves and driving off customers. The distressed slave merchants tried to calm the freedom fighters down, but they continued in their pro-freedom display until nearly all the customers had left.
With so many customers driven off, I was able to pick up a very nice pair of slaves for a sizable discount. Liberty's Edge is an excellent asset to have around!
Or in other words, "Andoranz is soooo dumb!" So far it's got 6 people who've marked it as favorite - there's no shortage of that attitude to be found.
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Who says that the scribes are not just criminals that had no chance of being "free"? I mean; "Oh look Mr Murderer, you did these unspeakable things. So because of that, we're going to cut out your tongue and sell you to the Society for your crimes."
Hmm, Chris Mortika's post said it's something that "we" do. Anyone know what book is this from anyway? I'd like to read what we're talking about myself.
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Hasn't a lot of "Seekers of Secrets" been handwaved away or at least described as painting the Society as much nastier than actually intended?Anyone know what book is this from anyway? I'd like to read what we're talking about myself."Seekers of Secrets" page 37. "Repository"I don't think so...
I don't recall anything saying that Seekers of Secrets is no longer canon.
Just a point of clarification, there is a LOT of middle ground between "described as painting the Society as much nastier than actually intended" and "saying that Seekers of Secrets is no longer canon".
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Anyone know what book is this from anyway? I'd like to read what we're talking about myself."Seekers of Secrets" page 37. "Repository"
Thanks!
Hmm. Seems this is basically the most top-secretest location in the whole Grand Lodge, accessible only to Snidely and company. So nothing that any PC would actually know about.
It's still really dumb and evil-for-the-lulz.
Who says that the scribes are not just criminals that had no chance of being "free"? I mean; "Oh look Mr Murderer, you did these unspeakable things. So because of that, we're going to cut out your tongue and sell you to the Society for your crimes."
It DOES describe them as "66 tongueless criminals purchased from Absalom’s courts labor constantly under powerful geases to transcribe and illuminate approved reports from Pathfinders to produce new editions of the Pathfinder Chronicles for distribution around the world."
1) It never expressly states that the Society cut out their tongues... They could have acquired them that way.
2) They are 'criminals'... So in a 'non-evil' game I just assume they are full of murderers and treasons who were either gonna rot forever or die... and now have the Lodges version of a 'chain gang'.
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Someone thought the Decemvirate needed more "evil points," apparently.
What the hell is it about large organizations which main characters work for that makes the writers feel the need to always make them evil? Why the hell can't the good guys ever work for an organization that is legitimately virtuous and standing up against evil in morally sound ways?
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Hmm. Seems this is basically the most top-secretest location in the whole Grand Lodge, accessible only to Snidely and company. So nothing that any PC would actually know about.It's still really dumb and evil-for-the-lulz.
To some extent, I agree. Rank-and-file Pathfinder agents probably don't know what's going on in the Repositiry, but (a) this is an organization founded on uncovering secrets, so it's a fair bet that many agents have found out what's in that big above-ground building out in the back yard, (b) the slavers who sell them to the Society know, and the people they tell, and ... (c) there are a lot of elements of the Society that the book says are secret, and then does not reveal. The Repository isn't that kind of clandestine knowledge.
And, unlike Phantom1592, I agree with you that it's evil, and needlessly so. Aram Zey himself invented spells that copy text much faster and free of error.
For what it's worth, I can testify that we lost at least a half-dozen gamers in Iowa when that book came out. The Society was no longer a "gentleman's club of amateur expeditionary forces." It was a dark organization with vast resources, and that's not everybody's cup of tea.
Someone thought the Decemvirate needed more "evil points," apparently.What the hell is it about large organizations which main characters work for that makes the writers feel the need to always make them evil? Why the hell can't the good guys ever work for an organization that is legitimately virtuous and standing up against evil in morally sound ways?
But the Pathfinder Society aren't the good guys. They're adventurous guys looking for knowledge... for themselves to write about or stow away in places for their "top men" to examine. Even an Andoren-based adventure I've played has PCs retrieving a dangerous item for questionable motives like possibly cheating in a prestigious tournament. They're thieves with a glorified and self-serving motivation. There are more enlightened (in the sense of good aligned) factions within the organization but they exist cheek to cheek with devil worshipers and mobsters.
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The in-universe Society takes in all kinds, but PFS is more restricted and, for a season or two, good-bent. Personally, I don't get what's the hoo-ah about: Agents still aren't heroes most of the time. There's the odd altruistic angle, but the mission's still about hoarding knowledge, amassing information.
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But the Pathfinder Society aren't the good guys. They're adventurous guys looking for knowledge... for themselves to write about or stow away in places for their "top men" to examine. Even an Andoren-based adventure I've played has PCs retrieving a dangerous item for questionable motives like possibly cheating in a prestigious tournament. They're thieves with a glorified and self-serving motivation. There are more enlightened (in the sense of good aligned) factions within the organization but they exist cheek to cheek with devil worshipers and mobsters.Someone thought the Decemvirate needed more "evil points," apparently.What the hell is it about large organizations which main characters work for that makes the writers feel the need to always make them evil? Why the hell can't the good guys ever work for an organization that is legitimately virtuous and standing up against evil in morally sound ways?
Right, but a lot of PCs are assumed to be in the employ of the Pathfinder Society. A lot of science fiction and fantasy stories have good characters in the employ of an evil or at least gravely misguided organization. Pacific Rim did this. The SCP foundation is this. The Marvel Cinematic Universe has one. Buffy the Vampire Slayer had one. Most crime dramas treat the FBI and CIA like this.
Those examples admittedly vary widely in degree, but it seems like every large organization in the vast majority of fiction does it least some mustache twirling. It's genuinely exhausting to know that the most morally sound large organization or government agency I am aware of in all of (recent) fiction is one I actually wrote for my own web serial.
I'm sure a bunch of people are going to come at me with a bunch of exceptions to that, but you can't deny that it's a trend and exceptions to it are less common than instances where it's played straight.
Right, but a lot of PCs are assumed to be in the employ of the Pathfinder Society. A lot of science fiction and fantasy stories have good characters in the employ of an evil or at least gravely misguided organization. Pacific Rim did this. The SCP foundation is this. The Marvel Cinematic Universe has one. Buffy the Vampire Slayer had one. Most crime dramas treat the FBI and CIA like this.
Those examples admittedly vary widely in degree, but it seems like every large organization in the vast majority of fiction does it least some mustache twirling. It's genuinely exhausting to know that the most morally sound large organization or government agency I am aware of in all of (recent) fiction is one I actually wrote for my own web serial.
I'm sure a bunch of people are going to come at me with a bunch of exceptions to that, but you can't deny that it's a trend and exceptions to it are less common than instances where it's played straight.
No... I think you're right. Anytime a significant group of people get together... their interests turn evil and self-serving...
Cults, societies, governments, religious organizatons... it's a horribly overused trope.
The best you can hope for is a small band of 'decent' people who operate without knowing it... or fight against it...
Yawn...
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To some extent, I agree. Rank-and-file Pathfinder agents probably don't know what's going on in the Repositiry, but (a) this is an organization founded on uncovering secrets, so it's a fair bet that many agents have found out what's in that big above-ground building out in the back yard, (b) the slavers who sell them to the Society know, and the people they tell, and ... (c) there are a lot of elements of the Society that the book says are secret, and then does not reveal. The Repository isn't that kind of clandestine knowledge.
Heh. How to enter the building is "presumably known only to the Decemverate itself." It's "purported [by who?] to house the only complete set of the Chronicles still in existence, complete with 'lost' volumes..." Contents of those lost and suppressed volumes are the kind of secret knowledge you're talking about.
But... there's 66 guys in there all the time, writing? Do Snidely Whiplash and his Nine Magic Idiots, being the only ones who know the way in, personally go in there to serve meals, supply paper, and haul out the chamberpots? Or at least drag out the corpses when they die of old age or eating the products of Murlynd's Spoon all the time or whatever? In fact, does any part of this make any damn sense whatsoever?
So yeah. That one paragraph in Seekers of Secrets might constitute the single most ludicrous bit of canon in the whole setting.
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Right, but a lot of PCs are assumed to be in the employ of the Pathfinder Society. A lot of science fiction and fantasy stories have good characters in the employ of an evil or at least gravely misguided organization. Pacific Rim did this. The SCP foundation is this. The Marvel Cinematic Universe has one. Buffy the Vampire Slayer had one. Most crime dramas treat the FBI and CIA like this.
Those examples admittedly vary widely in degree, but it seems like every large organization in the vast majority of fiction does it least some mustache twirling. It's genuinely exhausting to know that the most morally sound large organization or government agency I am aware of in all of (recent) fiction is one I actually wrote for my own web serial.
I'm sure a bunch of people are going to come at me with a bunch of exceptions to that, but you can't deny that it's a trend and exceptions to it are less common than instances where it's played straight.
No... I think you're right. Anytime a significant group of people get together... their interests turn evil and self-serving...
Cults, societies, governments, religious organizatons... it's a horribly overused trope.
The best you can hope for is a small band of 'decent' people who operate without knowing it... or fight against it...
Yawn...
Except there are loads of basically benevolent organizations in real life... unless you really were agreeing with me and not being sarcastic.
Except there are loads of basically benevolent organizations in real life... unless you really were agreeing with me and not being sarcastic.
As well as loads of organizations that take on institutional secrecy as an interest as well as an us vs them mentality like the aforementioned FBI, CIA, and a host of corporations, religious organizations, and even charities. If the trope is overused, it may be so because it mirrors so much of reality.
Except there are loads of basically benevolent organizations in real life... unless you really were agreeing with me and not being sarcastic.
Sure, I agree.
I'm just saying that it's human nature in both real life and fiction to try to dredge up the dirt on anyone or anything trying to do good.
Stories about the dark underside of something you thought was good and on your side... sell better then stories about good organizations who are exactly as good as they appear to be.
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I suppose it's a case of wanting to cause conflict in a fictional world, which is good.
The in-world Pathfinder Society exists outside of the strictures of the PFS organized play campaign. It's quite possible to play Society agents in a home campaign. In which case, characters would be free to investigate their parent organization. And a GM would want there to be something to investigate.
GM: "You know how the Society has this facade of being happy and wholesome?"
Players: "Yeah?"
GM: "Turns out, that's absolutely true. There's nothing to investigate, strive against, or challenge."
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Whats The point of owning a Slave then?? if they have no stats and you get no mini for the board why spend the gp?? seems like a waste to me. I would want a slave to carry my pack, hold a torch, stand watch at night and warn of danger, possibly pick locks and or send them forward as a way to search for traps. The last one being if I was evil.
Otherwise there is no point to owning a slave other than to say "Hey look I own a slave"....
One thing I do with one of my characters vanities is define them as my character's daughters. I keep figures for them and sometimes let other players reap the benefits (i.e. my daughter could learn some valuable lessons from a paladin such as yourself) and letting your fellow pcs use the vanity for the duration of the game. I hand the player the figure to symbolize the help.
Doing that with a slave would also be flavorful.
Stay classy Pathfinder Society, don't own slaves like an a#@%%%$ piece of s*~$.
If you want to expand pathfinder society b&!!@+~* like this isn't the way to do it, I know I wouldn't play at a table with another character that insists on owning slaves. I know the setting has it, it's historical, blah, blah, blah, whatever, doesn't matter pathfinder leadership needs to abolish this s~**, and quick.
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Whats The point of owning a Slave then?? if they have no stats and you get no mini for the board why spend the gp?? seems like a waste to me. I would want a slave to carry my pack, hold a torch, stand watch at night and warn of danger, possibly pick locks and or send them forward as a way to search for traps. The last one being if I was evil.
Otherwise there is no point to owning a slave other than to say "Hey look I own a slave"....
One thing I do with one of my characters vanities is define them as my character's daughters. I keep figures for them and sometimes let other players reap the benefits (i.e. my daughter could learn some valuable lessons from a paladin such as yourself) and letting your fellow pcs use the vanity for the duration of the game. I hand the player the figure to symbolize the help.
Doing that with a slave would also be flavorful.
This sounds awesome. I may steal the idea. ^_^
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Stay classy Pathfinder Society, don't own slaves like an a%~#~!# piece of s***.
If you want to expand pathfinder society b$~+!*%# like this isn't the way to do it, I know I wouldn't play at a table with another character that insists on owning slaves. I know the setting has it, it's historical, blah, blah, blah, whatever, doesn't matter pathfinder leadership needs to abolish this s*#~, and quick.
See? This is what I mean by "conflating Golarion slavery with historical American slavery." We are well on our way to getting heated with one another. Then the moderators have to step in, and then badness ensues.
Any plan where you lose your hat is a bad plan.
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Captain, you are well within your rights to refuse to sit at a table with someone who owns slaves, or a gunfighter, or a magus, or any other reason. You should realize that the other character is a legitimate PFS PC, though.
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Stay classy Pathfinder Society, don't own slaves like an a*+#&#* piece of s*#@.
If you want to expand pathfinder society b~&@$%&@ like this isn't the way to do it, I know I wouldn't play at a table with another character that insists on owning slaves. I know the setting has it, it's historical, blah, blah, blah, whatever, doesn't matter pathfinder leadership needs to abolish this s&~&, and quick.
Ain't going to happen. The Society has too much invested in it's own chattel labor.
Whatever, owning slaves is b%*~@!@~ whoever does should be deeply ashamed of themselves.
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Yes well as someone thats had a cross burned in his yard, i can't disagree more, shame on you, thats a cop out and you know it.
That's also a b+@+~$*~ cop out :-)
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That's also a b@#*#+#$ cop out :-)
I think Mortika has it right - we're crossing over real world feelings into a fictional world. If your characters feel this way, there's a faction for you. Otherwise, other people, who can have completely lawful characters, are able to play in a fictional world with fictional rules, where slavery is legal and canon.
If you think someone saying 'within this world it's allowed and I'm playing a character in this world' is a cop out, maybe you have less of a problem with the player and more a problem with the world itself.
And a question, for the sake of conversation: If a writer includes a scenario with slavery in it, are they also 'copping out' by saying 'Well, it's Cheliax, people own slaves'?
Nope it's non evil Anubis, pretty sweet is it not :-)
And I'm done now, my piece was said, I most definitely think PFS needs to outright ban owning of slaves, at least by field agents or whatever the player characters are called :-)
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Nope it's non evil Anubis, pretty sweet is it not :-)
And I'm done now, my piece was said, I most definitely think PFS needs to outright ban owning of slaves, at least by field agents or whatever the player characters are called :-)
I actually think we should ban theft and murder... but then we wouldn't be called "murder hobos".
Nope it's non evil Anubis, pretty sweet is it not :-)
And I'm done now, my piece was said, I most definitely think PFS needs to outright ban owning of slaves, at least by field agents or whatever the player characters are called :-)
While we are at it lets ban any necromancers, torturers, heck anyone who might commit actions against the law. Better get rid of any religious characters that might cause people to feel bad about. Paladin's also probably need to go their code might get in the way of cooperating too much. This is where banning things that people don't like can end up with everything slowly going away.