I look forward to your Necromantic take on Radillo! :D
(might I suggest AscotMancer for one of her roles??)
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Zarlova does feel like she'd make good use of some Life Drains and Fiery Glares, doesn't she?
I'm telling you Keith, upgrade packs for each class deck that go with each Adventure Path. Let's say there were 10 cards in each pack (which I'm just picking out of the air). So, you'd have a Cleric WotR Upgrade pack. And lets say you put 2 weapons, 5 spells, 1 item, 1 ally, 1 blessing in it. Spread them out over the various deck numbers. Rules wise, you could either let people add as many upgrade packs (in their entirety) to the appropriate class deck, or allow them to swap cards 1 for 1 with the upgrade packs based on Adventure Deck Number.
You'd also have an S&S Cleric Upgrade Pack. A Mummy's Mask Cleric Upgrade Pack. A WotR Wizard Upgrade Pack. A Mummy's Mask Wizard Upgrade Pack. etc.
Yes, if they came out at the beginning of an adventure path a few boons would be spoiled, but I doubt most people would care about that. (Besides the deck number in the AP wouldn't have to be the deck number in the upgrade pack). Players could choose which ones they wanted cards from, but at only 10 cards per pack, they aren't overly expensive. It keeps the class decks "living" and lets players have those cool cards they see in later adventure paths in their class decks.
I'd love to be able to play the exact same character again with different choices for cards. And I'd even have a way to put some cards in a class deck that dealt with AP particular things (like ships or mythic charges) without them being a permanent part of the class deck.
I, or course, have no idea of the financial feasibility of such an idea, so take all that with the largest grain of salt ever. But this is the thing I hope for most related to PACG. Well, besides winning the lottery despite not playing, becoming a multi-millionaire 100 times over, buying every Paizo product, investing heavily in both Paizo and Lone Shark to enable them to go bonkers with this and starting the first chain of stores dedicated primarily to Pathfinder Adventure Card Game. But I think the upgrade packs are more of a realistic possibility. And besides, if the lottery thing did happen I could just pay you a million dollars to make a legal class deck upgrade pack just for me.
I have no interest in ever revisiting a Class Deck class that I've already played, because even though their powers are unique, I'm going to be stuck with the exact same boons every time.
That's interesting. I don't feel that way. I played Arabundi and CD Harsk in OP Season 0, and found their playstyles different enough to keep me interested. (I preferred Harsk.)
Now I'm playing Wrathack in a solo OP Season 1 campaign.
Having different powers, strengths and weaknesses are what I care about. Changing the boon pool isn't necessary.
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There would likely be a lot of repetition between different class upgrade packs (SotS Oracle and SotS Cleric would have similar spells for example). Also I think once there are 30+ class decks, my completionist streak will break my bank account :)
I'd go for 110 card Season Upgrade Packs, with a few cards of each type (10 Arcane spells, 10 Divine Spells, 10 Melee Weapons, etc etc), though.
There would likely be a lot of repetition between different class upgrade packs (SotS Oracle and SotS Cleric would have similar spells for example). Also I think once there are 30+ class decks, my completionist streak will break my bank account :)
I'd go for 110 card Season Upgrade Packs, with a few cards of each type (10 Arcane spells, 10 Divine Spells, 10 Melee Weapons, etc etc), though.
The only thing about that is you'd loose the indication on the card as to which deck it belonged too. Not sure how much of a concern that is though. I think it was intended so everyone could easily sort back to the card they owned. I don't know if anyone has ever really had any problems with that. If not, then yeah, season upgrade packs would work better.
Or maybe if you did an upgrade pack of two boons together, say: divine and arcane spells, weapons and armor, and items and allies. At 109 cards (or less) each they might be able to fix the gaps in the first 7 class decks. Or even just two packs, arcane and divine spells and items and weapons, armor and allies.
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To build on that idea, I'd be happy if they released packs of cards that contain all boons of one type (e.g., all armors), then gave formulas for constructing "class decks" of ~100 cards from those packs. E.g., a Druid deck should contain between 6-10 weapons, 10-13 blessings, 15-20 divine spells...etc. - and letting you pick which of the 55 divine spells you just purchased will go in your Druid "class deck" with the characters you purchased. Then there could be Divine Spells II: Scryings and Strikings, and III: Buffs and Bromides, and so forth.
Then we could all sit here and post about what our constructed "class decks" look like and how they worked out.
If my idea didn't make sense I apologize.PACG is my first foray into gaming so I'm not really knowledgeable about sales models of card games, It was just a thought I had that I decided to share.
I don't see a "class deck builder set" on the horizon anytime soon since they just launched a Class Deck subscription line, so saying "here's all the boons you'll need to make every class deck ever" rather undercuts that.
That said, revisiting the first 7 decks to give them some love on the boon front would be much appreciated. While I don't need new boons every time I play a character (many existing boons suit multiple playstyles after all), there are some serious issues with the first batch of decks that would have me pretty much always going for the newer 3-character decks whenever possible just because I know those characters should have boons able to adequately support their various playstyles.
If they're going to allow you to take any version of an iconic, I'd rather have 3 new characters. If Paizo decides to only allow CD version characters, then of course I want the iconics in there.
One reason for including iconics that I haven't seen mentioned yet is pregenning in OP: The only pregens they have are the iconics (which mirrors pregens in the RPG). If no iconics are provided, then that makes pregens that much more difficult. And, further, while I don't know what and when they're planning to release as far as class decks in the future, past the 11 Core class, but there's no guarantee that whichever class deck they release at a given point will necessarily have said iconic already released as part of a box set or character add-on: there are a lot of classes, and each box set has overlap in terms of classes. Restricting class deck offerings to whichever classes have been released in non-OP seems....um, restrictive.
I don't think making a pregen for some other character included in the class deck would be any more difficult than making a pregen for a version of an iconic included in a class deck. (Not that I think they'd stop including the iconics any time soon.)
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I don't think making a pregen for some other character included in the class deck would be any more difficult than making a pregen for a version of an iconic included in a class deck. (Not that I think they'd stop including the iconics any time soon.)
As much as this product is deemed just an accessory for the game, it is also used for organized play. And pre-gens are part of the Pathfinder Society games (RPG and ACG). And the iconics are the face of the classes. We look in the books and what character do we see representing the class? The iconic. So while we argue that we want the iconic included or excluded, the reality is that the iconic is the face of the class and will be expected to be in the class deck. And that Tanis and company will be providing pre-gen information for the various tiers.
And while it is easy to pre-generate other characters, I don't expect any official pre-gens to come from Paizo except for the iconic.
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I love that the Class Deck add-on pack was brought up again (and in a different thread, no less). ^_~
I also love that in Adventure Five my Zarlova has a +11 attack bonus when using a Divine attack spell. Almost makes not having Arcane attack spells worth it. Almost.
The people I play with were unaware you could use base set iconics with their respective class decks. I bet a couple of them wish they'd known that when we started Wrath (for their specific Worldwound helpfulness).
I'm fine with not including the Iconics in the class decks, as long as there's a base set version of them to use if you want to use them. I haven't played the RPG, so the non-Iconics appeal to me more anyway (since they're not the stereotypical version of that character (as someone else said, Ezrren just LOOKS like a stereotypical wizard, whereas Radillo is just more interesting). When I chose to play as Zarlova in Season 0, I picked her because she looked more interesting to play than Kyra. And I didn't even know Kyra was the Iconic.
Including them in the CD is the only way to guarantee everyone has an iconic.
Several of the players I play with have the class deck but play alternate versions of the iconics on a print out. Often the CD version isn't needed or desired.
Removing pregens might not work for other reasons, but for me it's more desirable.
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The people I play with were unaware you could use base set iconics with their respective class decks. I bet a couple of them wish they'd known that when we started Wrath (for their specific Worldwound helpfulness).
I'm fine with not including the Iconics in the class decks, as long as there's a base set version of them to use if you want to use them. I haven't played the RPG, so the non-Iconics appeal to me more anyway (since they're not the stereotypical version of that character (as someone else said, Ezrren just LOOKS like a stereotypical wizard, whereas Radillo is just more interesting). When I chose to play as Zarlova in Season 0, I picked her because she looked more interesting to play than Kyra. And I didn't even know Kyra was the Iconic.
The problem is that there isn't always a base set version to play with and honestly, I'm not always sure that's a good option. For instance, I love Harsk. Yes, I know it's a surprise. And there are three versions of him, Rise of the Runelords, Class Deck and Wrath of the Righteous. And I have played all three. (And yes, I really wanted to try the Arbalist role but it needs support as much as Zarlova needs some Arcane lovin'.) For Season of the Shackles, the CD version as a Vanguard was a beast. Scouting all over the place was how we won most of the scenarios. But when I started Season of the Righteous, I took a good look at WotR Harsk and ultimately chose him to play (as one of my characters). While I miss the scouting, I think the Demon hunting abilities will be more helpful.
Base set iconics tend to be built for the Adventure Path. The Class deck iconic should be a broader version that can be put into different APs without hampering it's playability.
I'm fine with not including the Iconics in the class decks, as long as there's a base set version of them to use if you want to use them. I haven't played the RPG, so the non-Iconics appeal to me more anyway (since they're not the stereotypical version of that character (as someone else said, Ezrren just LOOKS like a stereotypical wizard, whereas Radillo is just more interesting). When I chose to play as Zarlova in Season 0, I picked her because she looked more interesting to play than Kyra. And I didn't even know Kyra was the Iconic.
I agree with Rebel. When the Iconics were conceived they were pregens for pen and paper and became "the face" of the classes as it were. However, ( keep in mind, this is just my opinion again) does that mean that the Iconics have to be the face of the class decks? For ease as a pregen Valeros was "the" fighter, but now we have 3 others to choose from that can be built (and pregened)just as easily as Valeros. All I'm saying is that the card game is a new medium and (down the road) it may have to deviate from some of the RPG standards. Personally I think the class decks should be just that, the class, not the stereotypical face. BTW, I'm just enjoying the discussion and exchange of ideas and viewpoints . I'm not looking to upset anyone, so please don't send Wu Shen to eliminate me in my sleep ^_~.
As long as you get rid of all lace in your bedding you should be fine, I heard her next challenge to herself was to strangulate someone using their own lacy bed sheets.
Phew, now I know for sure that sliding off of my satin sheets has been a blessing in disguise ; ).
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Just caught up on the thread, and I totally concur with the idea of a "Class deck upgrade pack". But I don't think you'd necessarily need to make small, 10-card packs for each one... make one 56-card upgrade deck that covers all of the currently-printed class decks for the new adventure path. That way you wouldn't need to worry about duplicates (you could have 3 copies of Detect Demon in the Wrath upgrade pack which people could use to replace Arcane or Divine spells of the same level in their character decks).
I would absolutely pay $15 or so for an upgrade deck that I could apply to any of my class deck characters. And for those who don't play organized play, it can simply be a source of some more copies of useful boons, or a way to easily put some fun boons from one AP into another without breaking up their full card set.
I'd also like to reiterate my interest in having character packs that are not necessarily all the same class. A single pack with three necromancy-focused characters (one Wizard, one Cleric, one Oracle or Warpriest?) would allow you to have all of the boons in the pack be useful to at least two if not all three characters, and they'd give you a lot of design space for themed characters as well. :)
Just caught up on the thread, and I totally concur with the idea of a "Class deck upgrade pack". But I don't think you'd necessarily need to make small, 10-card packs for each one... make one 56-card upgrade deck that covers all of the currently-printed class decks for the new adventure path. That way you wouldn't need to worry about duplicates (you could have 3 copies of Detect Demon in the Wrath upgrade pack which people could use to replace Arcane or Divine spells of the same level in their character decks).
I would absolutely pay $15 or so for an upgrade deck that I could apply to any of my class deck characters. And for those who don't play organized play, it can simply be a source of some more copies of useful boons, or a way to easily put some fun boons from one AP into another without breaking up their full card set.
I'd also like to reiterate my interest in having character packs that are not necessarily all the same class. A single pack with three necromancy-focused characters (one Wizard, one Cleric, one Oracle or Warpriest?) would allow you to have all of the boons in the pack be useful to at least two if not all three characters, and they'd give you a lot of design space for themed characters as well. :)
Doesn't the custom card printing service sort of cover this already?
In a way. Personally,I wanted more mental cards for Radillo's power so I made a bunch to cover the gap. Using the card creator each player is welcome to fill in the class deck characters needs as they choose. However, I think everyone is looking for something more official to fix any issues with the original 7 class decks. Also , to my knowledge(maybe the Op players could help me out here), I'm not sure that created cards (other than Councilor's Ring) are Op legal.
You named it "Blessing of Klein", didn't you?
I myself would like to see more caster specific armor and weapons( Robes and staves...etc), especially some that don't require proficiency. Zarlova and Darago(and some others) would be very grateful ^_^.
I like the iconics in the class decks because they give versions of those characters that are less specific to the base set AP in which they appear. I'd be disappointed if Seltyiel didn't appear in the class deck for the magus, or if Amiri didn't appear in the class deck for the barbarian. I have to be honest here - while the abilities of the character matter to a degree, the imagery of the character can often be just as important (especially for newer players who have absolutely no idea how to interpret the potency and use of the rules for the characters). In this, Merisiel S&S is only marginally different from Merisiel RCD, and new player that really likes the image might not care which rules she uses as long as she can use one of them.
On the other hand, having only three characters in a class deck reduces some variation for players that are more familiar with the game. I think that is a minor drawback - far less important than having the iconic in the deck.
What I'd like to see is additional decks for each class. This would allow the first deck for each class to include the iconic character for that class along with two new characters and more boons, and then subsequent decks for the same class (which don't exist yet, I know, but this is all wish-listing) could have three entirely new characters. Imagine Bard Class Deck 2, with three new bard characters (no need for Lem because he was in Bard CD 1) and a bounty of bardy boons (alliteration seemed appropriate when using the bard example).
Even if we never get additional decks for each class, I'd still want the iconic characters to be in the decks for organized play and because trying a slightly different version of the iconic character would give some variation.
What I want to see is for the cards in the class decks to be more useful. Then we could have 4 characters again.
Class decks have a very limited capacity but yet I often find cards that aren't good for ANY character in the class deck! For example, putting Perception based cards into a class deck where none of the characters have Perception as a skill.
Or cards that you wouldn't even want to upgrade to. Like Cook or things that just aren't suitable for the class. Upgrades aren't upgrades if you don't want them.
Class decks have a very limited capacity but yet I often find cards that aren't good for ANY character in the class deck! For example, putting Perception based cards into a class deck where none of the characters have Perception as a skill.
You can still use them on Perception checks (d4 + whatever the card gives you). If Perception was used a lot in Season of the (Whatever), then you might be very glad to have it.
I have an Amaryllis in the Season of the Shackles who still has a Guide in case she has to defeat a Ship. A d4+d10 (twice) gives her a chance on many of them. I'll probably cycle the Guide out if I get a high-end Ally, but until then she helps keep Amaryllis from wandering off into the jungle. :)
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What I want to see is for the cards in the class decks to be more useful. Then we could have 4 characters again.
Class decks have a very limited capacity but yet I often find cards that aren't good for ANY character in the class deck! For example, putting Perception based cards into a class deck where none of the characters have Perception as a skill.
The cards being useful enough for 4 characters would mean larger decks, and since decks only come in certain sizes, much bigger decks.
Having Perception cards in a Perception-less deck isn't useless. If you have to make a Perception 8 check, who needs buffs more? The d10+2 Rogue? Or a d4 Wizard?
Perception isn't a good example because there are very few Perception checks in the game that are not also Wisdom checks. So most Wizards would roll a d6 base or higher.
If they're making a Wisdom/Perception check, they could use a myriad of other things like the basic recharge 1d6 to 2 stat people (Sage, Teamster, etc) or use a double blessing like the Blessing of Shelyn, and both of those options are better than a d4 + d10 that blessings can only increase by d4 with blessings.
I'm of course assuming the Perception check was a must pass like the Spiked Pit Trap.
This breaks down if the Perception check/whatever doesn't have a base stat attached to it, but in those cases you're super screwed most likely. And I believe those are rare.
So while they aren't useless, I will often take the d6 stat enhancers over even a d10 skill enhancer.
(Hopes Tanis doesn't use this fact against me if I ever play in an open)
Synergistic use of things like allies definitely made a real difference in the Open, but I don't think a d6 stat vs d10 skill did ;)
Mind you, I also tend to avoid those types of allies (no matter how much my wife says I need a Dog!), and had a bit of influence on the character decks, so that may have something to do with it.
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Keith, when your wife says you need a dog, she didn't mean the ally card.
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We have two actual dogs. She really did mean the card, cause she thinks it's adorbs.
I'm hoping some of the newer dog cards will catch her interest better.
If not, going to have to pull out the big guns and see if we can't get Appleslayer onto a card.
I was already disappointed by the number of dog mounts in the Paladin deck, and now you show me that. :(
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If not, going to have to pull out the big guns and see if we can't get Appleslayer onto a card.
WHY HAS NO ONE TOLD ME ABOUT APPLESLAYER BEFORE NOW
GOOD PUP
Heh. One of my PFS characters (a Gnome Sorcerer) has a St. Bernard riding dog named Mr. Fluffy. The kobolds that live under Absalom gave it to him.
And yes, he could use the Perception bonus. :)
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If not, going to have to pull out the big guns and see if we can't get Appleslayer onto a card.WHY HAS NO ONE TOLD ME ABOUT APPLESLAYER BEFORE NOW
GOOD PUP
Sorry, boss; I found it on my research through Pathfinder Tales for <REDACTED>.
I must've only shown Tanis :)
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I sense a promo card!
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At this rate, understanding the extreme limitation of the 110 card character decks could never truly give us the full suite of dog mount breeds we deserve, might be time to learn how to use that custom card creator.
However, should there ever be an official Appleslayer promo card... well then, you can just call me MyFly, coz I want five of 'em.
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At this rate, understanding the extreme limitation of the 110 card character decks could never truly give us the full suite of dog mount breeds we deserve, might be time to learn how to use that custom card creator.
However, should there ever be an official Appleslayer promo card... well then, you can just call me MyFly, coz I want five of 'em.
LOL.
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However, should there ever be an official Appleslayer promo card... well then, you can just call me MyFly, coz I want five of 'em.
Oh my goodness I just burst out giggling.
That is such a little fluffy doggie I need it! :D
If they're making a Wisdom/Perception check, they could use a myriad of other things like the basic recharge 1d6 to 2 stat people (Sage, Teamster, etc) or use a double blessing like the Blessing of Shelyn, and both of those options are better than a d4 + d10 that blessings can only increase by d4 with blessings.
My Amaryllis has a Sage as well as the Guide. Poor thing has the worst luck with Cannibals; she's constantly asking for hazard pay.