This may be a long read, so let me start this off by saying i really am stumped and could really really use some advice from more experienced players.
tldr:Weekly sessions for a year. Pure hack n slash for said year. Didn't start out as that, just developed as the GM was further influenced by the moaning of specific players to be basically pure combat. GM made sandbox mode as to let us explore our own world, but has turned into, "what do we wanna fight next." I on the other hand have always played the face, or scout, or support character. I've tried adapting to there play style, and it doesn't make a difference. A whole new set of problems rise up when i do that. Im stuck..
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Ive only been playing for almost 2 yrs, but really actively. My group as a whole is less experienced except the GM, whom got into it exactly when i did. And all of us are really into it. The whole group is having fun, its pathfinder man who cant make there own fun in this game? Its great! Mr GM has been playing this campaign out with us for almost a year, and we play quite a bit. Weekly basis, very consistently. On top of that almost all of us have known each other way way before pathfinder.
The world that the GM is building is vast and expansive and alive. There's all these nations and wars, groups of pirates, peaceful nations and friendly people we know. There's supernatural beasts and spirits, and gods as well as outsiders. We've been sticking to one out of the 3 continents on the "globe," and have made quite the name for ourselves at level 9. This has been played since level 1, and he plans on going to 20. It's awesome. However thats not the point of this thread. Theres issues that ive been seeing ever since we started that have, for lack of a better word, festered and grown. Plus bad habits and mindsets that really limit how fun this game actually can be, and how vast it can get.
There's 5 people in the group, and then the GM, for a grand total of 6. I'm not saying all of them feel a certain way, but the loudest person is typically the one that gets heard.
The GM likes hack and slash, but like i said before world building and story lines is something he's really great at, and i feel like he's dug himself into a hole and we cant get ourselves out, and he's doing it to try and please the groups mindset. The campaign is extremely "sand-boxy" but there is an underlying story line and focus of the whole thing that is really being overshadowed greatly due to the mentality that everyone plays with. People want to fight, like always always. If we go literally 15 min without a fight, people start whining or talking, or being loud, or for all purposes not playing even though combat is not all there is to pathfinder. Theres so much more, and yes combat is basically the heart of the game, it ties everything together, but its not the whole damn meal.
So in game we had down time, and with this down time i was able to "re-invent" my characters potential into a different field. I kept most of the key features of the guy, but just made him more focused on what i wanted to accomplish, which was scouting.
The mission at hand was to go to this dead ruined city atop a mountain, and find the locks for these 3 keys that we've been spending forever gathering. Only problem was no one could breath, and would suffocate before anyone could make it to the top. Well, my PC is actually a construct, so this wasn't a problem. Not only that but teleportation and long distance communication/sensory was how i built him. So i ported up to the top once i saw the place to put the keys, put them in, and went into this underground hole dungeon thing. My whole goal was to find somewhere that i could blink in the meatsacks. All this happened in less than 15 min. I was intentionally trying to be quick, decisive, and useful so i could get my party(of which I'm very aware how they only play for combat, so i was trying to make that possible) into a position to do what they want. It took no time at all, and was really effective.
Not only that, it was DIFFERENT. What i did wasn't extraordinary or special in the slightest. I literally teleported, twisted a key, burrowed around and teleported them in. But complaints were rampant. Completely and totally rude, like beyond rude. But PG forums and all.
Each and every session, within 20min of starting, the group is expecting and wanting a fight. Not only that, if there's ever a "dragging down" period of time, which they so lovingly call it, that lasts more than 15-20m, people start whining. Usually they clock out a lot sooner than that, but at least stay quiet till hopefully the 20m mark. So what is the GM supposed to do when this has happened every session, every week, for almost a whole year? He's doing the only thing he can, and its causing him to forget the campaign entirely. I want to see his story, and go through his world, but we cant.
In an attempt to steer us atleast towards a plot-line that would make sense and not just be a random, "hey lets go kill this rich monster for all that loot," i thought of a story arch that ties into the backstory of my character(a campaign i GMd, more story focused with a lot of fighting thrown in as per request..). So in character i asked them to help me with it, in exchange for all the crafting i do for them(literally months of crafting i've pumped out for each of them). Its ganna actually hold significance, and be character driven. Its gonna be dangerous and different. I've had this as his backstory ever since i brought him in, its not just random. So i feel since we've gotten to a slow point in the campaign story wise, we explore some rich backstory to keep it interesting.
They've taken this to mean, "lets go kill SPECIFIC things we want instead of waiting around for the GM to throw stuff at us." ie. "I think itd be cool to visit snow. Lets kill some ice giants or something.."
I just don't know what to do. I've been trying to adapt to the environment, or steer us back towards the core a bit. I don't know why change, or any semblance of something other than combat, is a bad thing..
Any thoughts?
I do not know you personally and I don't know your group dynamic. That said, from your description it sounds like part of the problem is this: currently your group sees their potential play choices as being team combat or being the Human Puppet show. I'm not saying they're right or wrong, I'm just saying that from your description I think that's where their heads are.
Twenty minutes where you are the only person at the table doing anything is a long time. The suggestion that everybody focus on something important to your backstory (and where you'd presumably be the one calling the shots) is always going to be a tough sell. Tacking on the idea that they now owe you for the construct work that you may have appeared to be doing for free won't make it go down any easier.
My suggestion would be to come up with ways for the whole group to get involved with non combat stuff so everybody can shine. If you're going out solo use a message spell/wand to justify staying in radio contact and let the whole group collaborate in your decision making. Come up with a cool non-combat story arc that ties in to somebody else's backstory and makes them the center of attention.
Once everybody is having fun outside of combat you can start to try to draw more of the narrative attention your way.
Hm. This is a hard nut to crack.
In the end, there might be nothing more to do than to accept that what constitutes fun for different players can differ so vastly that they can't play together - and then part was. This is, of course, sort of a last resort. But face it, the investment, the amount of time people spend in and around playing so often vast that it won't be worth it if it's not fun.
Communication is important. Everyone probably have to be included. You've identified what you find fun, and what your co-players find fun. They might not have seen what you find fun yet. Tell them. Point it out to them that you play to increase the fun for the whole group (using perhaps your example with the keys) - and point out that you feel like you are rewarded with lack of interest in your fun and your character at best and complaints at worst. I stress that you should say that you feel that this is happening, rather trying to be objective and saying this is true. Get them to start thinking why you feel this way, if they at first don't agree with them complaining all the time.
And, this is very important, everyone at the table is responsible for the fun of everyone else. Always. This is not a GM job. Even if you find a segment another character is having a bit boring, you should be supportive and cheering her on. If someone can't grasp this, I honestly believe they're in the wrong hobby.
Twenty minutes where you are the only person at the table doing anything is a long time.
This is a very valid point. If the GM had designed a scene that required all but one of the players to wait for 20 minutes I'd be pretty irritated. This is bad GMing. Still, that irritation should not be ventilated until the end or after the session, and then come out as constructive criticism.
Oh, and its always good to have 15-20 minutes at the end of every session to discuses how the session went. More modern games than Pathfinder have this build in into the rules, but with PF you just have to remember to do it and do it without guiding rules.
My suggestion would be to come up with ways for the whole group to get involved with non combat stuff so everybody can shine. If you're going out solo use a message spell/wand to justify staying in radio contact and let the whole group collaborate in your decision making. Come up with a cool non-combat story arc that ties in to somebody else's backstory and makes them the center of attention.
The radio idea would be alright, but as a whole we stick together. Only time someone splits off, its me to see whats infront. The group is stacked with martials + a blaster. They stay together. And its easier said than done to come up with an arch that everyone gets tied in together, but im trying.
And, this is very important, everyone at the table is responsible for the fun of everyone else. Always. This is not a GM job. Even if you find a segment another character is having a bit boring, you should be supportive and cheering her on. If someone can't grasp this, I honestly believe they're in the wrong hobby.
I completely agree 100%. I've based my whole play around making what they do, and how they have fun, go more smoothly. ie. support/face buffer dude so the martials get big. Or get them to fights quickly and efficiently. Not only that, but i really am doing my best to try and relieve pressure from the GM, and make it to where he's not the focus of all there critics from lack of fighting.
It's probably time for a talk between GM and the players. Is there something they enjoyed (beside the battling)? A certain setting, a certain NPC, a certain situation? Agree to let everyone speak, without interruption and judgment, then the GM can change focus of his campaign. Or try new stuff and ask for opinions.
Don't bow to whining. Try to take it to a better level: Constructive discussion. What does someone want? Why does he want it? How does it interact with the others' wishes?
And well, while the GM wants some self-realization with his hard work, he has to keep in mind the players probably don't care about certain facets. My players don't care about NPC motivations - ok, I cut down on that then. But they want riddles - ok, I hate riddles, but they will get one or two.
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You can lead a gamer to mt dew but you cant make them drink. Sounds like a playstyle difference that could be insurmountable. If a talk doesnt steer things in the right direction prepare yourself to leave the game. If you do, be graceful its nobodies fault entirely why things dont work. Sometimes playstyles are simply incompatible.
You can lead a gamer to mt dew but you cant make them drink. Sounds like a playstyle difference that could be insurmountable. If a talk doesnt steer things in the right direction prepare yourself to leave the game. If you do, be graceful its nobodies fault entirely why things dont work. Sometimes playstyles are simply incompatible.
I dont want to come across like theres just constant berating and strife between all the players. We all have stuck around for the full year because we really do have fun, and enjoy the sessions we play. I just wanted some advice on how to handle this over-arching situation thats been developing slowly. Im perfectly content switching up my style to suit there "needs" i guess, as i still will be having a blast. But i feel like theres better ways to play a pure hack n slash campaign, and if so wouldnt exactly be fun or varied if its just constant fights all the time.
This started small, and got bigger campaign wise. The game itself is really diverse and has a lot of depth, and moving parts. And i feel its getting dumb ed down to a level that's not fair to what the GM was trying to do in the first place.
Try to slowly introduce non-combat aspects into the game... pay attention to the details that interest them DURING dungeon crawls, and play up on it...
If, for example, they LOVE killing one type of monster over another, have a local town threatened by it...
Have a quick 'villagers hire adventurers' type deal, with a stipulation that people have been taken, and need to be returned...
they go in and kill said monsters, but have to be careful, and rescue the victims...
Quick convo with the rescued folks, many thanks... give the town a name...
Have the mayor/local lord ask them for help with _campaign relevant plot-point_.
I dunno, just try to introduce non-combat fluff gradually. Attempting to force it down their throats will result in more combat.