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Okay, so while normally when I ask questions it's just to get opinions, at this question I am asking specifically in regards to PFS. So, if anyone can find out or let a VC know, I would appreciate it.
Change Shape (Su) A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex. The kitsune always takes this specific form when she uses this ability. A kitsune in human form cannot use her bite attack, but gains a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as alter self, except that the kitsune does not adjust her ability scores.
Pretty simple. Human of the same sex, always the same look. So, probably a Tian looking young woman. But must be human.
You can precisely mimic the physical features of any individual you have encountered. When you use your racial change shape ability, you can attempt to take the form of an individual, granting you a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks made to fool others with your impersonation.
Now, there lies the question... d20pfsrd says this...
The text of this feat states that you can mimic an "individual" which you have encountered, but it likely should specify that Kitsune have the ability to turn into humans, so GMs are encouraged to read the feat as follows: "You can precisely mimic the physical features of any human you have encountered..."
But, that's not official, that's just the opinion of the player who put it up on their site.
So, for PFS FAQ purposes...
Are Kitsune with the Realistic Likeness feat still limited to humans?
I'd say they can attempt to mimic anyone, but they'll always be doing so as a human. This will often introduce circumstantial penalties to the check.
For example, they perfectly mimic Janira Gavix, but seem rather too tall. Or, find a way to hide Kreighton Shaine's, now, oddly round ears or someone will notice.
BTW, I'd give them the same issue with impersonating someone of a different sex. "My my Valeros! You seem to have, um, grown in odd ways since I last saw you."
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Um no, that's what the disguise check that it gives you a +10 to is for. If they don't beat your check, nobody questions it. Alter Self is what it is treated as, so there are no 'circumstance penalties' for being another race that there were not already there (Doesn't say Kitsune ignore the penalty to disguise themselves as humans, so they get a -2 penalty to their disguise check, then the +10 for a net +8) other than the fact that by default Kitsune can't... however, that's where the question comes in...
Does the feat change that? The hows are as Alter Self.
Or in other words, they already are impersonating humans as a Kitsune. That's how the rules work.
I'm not sure I'm following you. My point was that they always take human form.
If they are trying to impersonate an individual who isn't human (say the halfling Janira Gavix or the elf Kreighton Shaine) they would look like a human version of that individual. Right face, but other details (height or ears, respectively) would be wrong.
I'd rule that this would provide an additional penalty to the disguise check. In the case of Janira, it would be pretty hefty. The shortest human is still noticeably taller than any halfling. For Kreighton, I'd set it based on the player's description of what they are doing to cover the inappropriate ears.
My last point was that they can't change their sex either with the ability. Therefore, trying to impersonate someone of a different sex than themselves would be difficult as well.
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Yeah, but a 'consensus' like that doesn't mean anything. If it comes up in an official PFS capacity, what is the answer?
1. It's human only with the feat.
2. It includes all humanoids with the feat (this is my interpretation.)
3. There is no official answer, so expect table variation.
The official Paizo/PFS answer might be any human, but if I as a GM don't know that... Then... as I said above, I don't know... What's done when a GM breaks a rule that he/she was ignorant of?
That's why it matters what the official PFS ruling is, even if the ruling is that there is no official ruling, so expect table variation.
As to Gino, the rules of Disguise, which their ability does not change other than to give them a +10 racial bonus on their disguise check to appear as a human, say that when impersonating another race you take a -2 on your disguise check. They are Kitsune, not human so they ALWAYS get a -2 on their disguise check, but that's okay because they get the +10. Unless you mean that they are now 'human' but then they are not trying to appear as human so they lose their bonus and then get just the normal -2? That I could maybe see.
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I genrally assume the limit is medium humanoid when I play my kitsune, and have never had someone object, either locally or at cons, with a couple of people asking me why I was not using it in otherwise obvious situations involving small humanoids. That said, table variation, ymmv, etc.
Its a cool feat but a hat of disguise does almost the same thing from a game perspective, unless you really want to put your disguise to some unusual tests...
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Hmm, okay so yeah looks like those with experience say that it's opened up beyond human, but some GMs might say otherwise. Yet, the people at d20pfsrd strongly suggest that it remain limited to humans (but they don't work for Paizo, so they are no more an official source than Harley Quinn.) Just really wish they would make actual rulings instead of just assuming we know exactly what the writer was thinkin. I see it all the time when there is a big long back and forth debate about a rule wording and hundreds of people FAQ it... Paizo says "NO reply needed" like... really? If its so obvious, why are so many people debating it?
To BigNorseWolf: Hat of Greater Disguise (I am assuming you meant this, as Hat of Disguise is Disguise Self, Greater is Alter Self which is what the Kitsune does) won't let you pretend to be a specific person. Realistic Likeness will. So, 'almost the same thing' still isn't the same thing. Not to mention a hat of greater disguise costs a lot of money and it takes up a magic item slot. The feat is neither.
Hmm, okay so yeah looks like those with experience say that it's opened up beyond human, but some GMs might say otherwise. Yet, the people at d20pfsrd strongly suggest that it remain limited to humans (but they don't work for Paizo, so they are no more an official source than Harley Quinn.) Just really wish they would make actual rulings instead of just assuming we know exactly what the writer was thinkin. I see it all the time when there is a big long back and forth debate about a rule wording and hundreds of people FAQ it... Paizo says "NO reply needed" like... really? If its so obvious, why are so many people debating it?
To BigNorseWolf: Hat of Greater Disguise (I am assuming you meant this, as Hat of Disguise is Disguise Self, Greater is Alter Self which is what the Kitsune does) won't let you pretend to be a specific person. Realistic Likeness will. So, 'almost the same thing' still isn't the same thing. Not to mention a hat of greater disguise costs a lot of money and it takes up a magic item slot. The feat is neither.
A regular hat of disguise lets you impersonate a specific person.
The only issue is that if someone interacts with the glamor they get a rather low DC will save to see through it. DC11 is hilarously bad, so it's not quite the same as Realistic Likeness.
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Hmm, okay so yeah looks like those with experience say that it's opened up beyond human, but some GMs might say otherwise. Yet, the people at d20pfsrd strongly suggest that it remain limited to humans (but they don't work for Paizo, so they are no more an official source than Harley Quinn.) Just really wish they would make actual rulings instead of just assuming we know exactly what the writer was thinkin. I see it all the time when there is a big long back and forth debate about a rule wording and hundreds of people FAQ it... Paizo says "NO reply needed" like... really? If its so obvious, why are so many people debating it?
To BigNorseWolf: Hat of Greater Disguise (I am assuming you meant this, as Hat of Disguise is Disguise Self, Greater is Alter Self which is what the Kitsune does) won't let you pretend to be a specific person. Realistic Likeness will. So, 'almost the same thing' still isn't the same thing. Not to mention a hat of greater disguise costs a lot of money and it takes up a magic item slot. The feat is neither.
A regular hat of disguise lets you impersonate a specific person.
The only issue is that if someone interacts with the glamor they get a rather low DC will save to see through it. DC11 is hilarously bad, so it's not quite the same as Realistic Likeness.
True, as per the normal disguise skill, but again, even if they do that's still a magic item that you have to buy and that takes up a slot. Not to mention the Hat of Disguise doesn't give you a +10 racial bonus to your Disguise check.
True, as per the normal disguise skill, but again, even if they do that's still a magic item that you have to buy and that takes up a slot. Not to mention the Hat of Disguise doesn't give you a +10 racial bonus to your Disguise check.Hmm, okay so yeah looks like those with experience say that it's opened up beyond human, but some GMs might say otherwise. Yet, the people at d20pfsrd strongly suggest that it remain limited to humans (but they don't work for Paizo, so they are no more an official source than Harley Quinn.) Just really wish they would make actual rulings instead of just assuming we know exactly what the writer was thinkin. I see it all the time when there is a big long back and forth debate about a rule wording and hundreds of people FAQ it... Paizo says "NO reply needed" like... really? If its so obvious, why are so many people debating it?
To BigNorseWolf: Hat of Greater Disguise (I am assuming you meant this, as Hat of Disguise is Disguise Self, Greater is Alter Self which is what the Kitsune does) won't let you pretend to be a specific person. Realistic Likeness will. So, 'almost the same thing' still isn't the same thing. Not to mention a hat of greater disguise costs a lot of money and it takes up a magic item slot. The feat is neither.
A regular hat of disguise lets you impersonate a specific person.
The only issue is that if someone interacts with the glamor they get a rather low DC will save to see through it. DC11 is hilarously bad, so it's not quite the same as Realistic Likeness.
...it gives you a +10 untyped bonus instead.
There is no practical difference (unless you use both simultaneously).
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This has been resolved by a pathfinder society scenario.
Kitsunes with realistic likeness can become humanoids
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This has been resolved by a pathfinder society scenario.
Kitsunes with realistic likeness can become humanoids
The recent PFS scenario referred to above has a rather epic character of legendary skill impersonating other humanoids. It should not be taken as canon, alas. The kitsune in question was exceptional, and had been the recipient of a wish.
The rule that I've presented to GMs is that I can do any human, including those races that mechanically count as human: half-orcs, half-elves and theoretically aasimars with scion of humanity trait. (Like I am EVER going to meet one of those in a scenario!) I impersonated a half-orc guard very successfully in one module.
Humans are ubiquitious. Becoming any human? Awesome.
Other things that will help deceivers:
Sleeves of many garments -- 200 g to change your entire outfit at whim.
A high bluff and possibly perform (act). Voice mimicry comes off bluff.
A high disguise skill + kit.
I'm playing a bard primarily to make best use of my ability to disguise myself and impersonate stuff since bards get enough skill points and just the right class skills to pull this stuff off.
Hmm
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This has been resolved by a pathfinder society scenario.
Kitsunes with realistic likeness can become humanoidsThe recent PFS scenario referred to above has a rather epic character of legendary skill impersonating other humanoids. It should not be taken as canon, alas. The kitsune in question was exceptional, and had been the recipient of a wish.
What was the wish for though? A wish for the Realistic Likeness feat, a wish for the ability to impersonate any individual, or something completely different? That matters.
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I would rule you can only take the form of humans. Here is why...
You can precisely mimic the physical features of any individual you have encountered. When you use your racial change shape ability, you can attempt to take the form of an individual, granting you a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks made to fool others with your impersonation.
...using Realistic Likeness requires the use of Change Shape...
A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex. The kitsune always takes this specific form when she uses this ability. A kitsune in human form cannot use her bite attack, but gains a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as alter self, except that the kitsune does not adjust her ability scores.
So using Change Shape allows you to become human. "Individual" is not a game term, and therefore doesn't explicitly open up anything but humans. Using Realistic Likeness gets around the "specific single human" limitation, but not around the "human form" limitation.
It does operate as Alter Self, but with text limiting to human as per Change Shape and nothing in Realistic Likeness explicitly changing that, you can only change into human individuals.
The base Kitsune power allows you to take ONE specific human shape which is the same shape every time the power is used. The Kitsune racial feat Realistic Likeness gives you the flexibility to take any HUMAN shape.
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This has been resolved by a pathfinder society scenario.
Kitsunes with realistic likeness can become humanoids
Unfortunately, PFS scenarios don't create rules. There are many scenarios that make use of tactics or rules that simply don't work. Sometimes the scenario is written with that in mind, and sometimes the author gets it wrong and the editors miss it.