That'll be a case-by-case determination, as I know of no general rule that addresses that.
Please name the cases you're considering.
well, augment summoning applies so I don't see why others should not.
well, augment summoning applies so I don't see why others should not.
I'll second this.
well, augment summoning applies so I don't see why others should not.
We know that Metamagic does not apply to SLAs, so it needs to be on a case by case basis.
Spell Penetration: YES, b/c it only applies to your CL check and not the actual spell.
I would say yes to Spell/Elemental Focus
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Closest thing I can locate is a Lizardfolk Sorcerer.
Breath weapon does acid damage and it has Elemental Focus (Acid). The DC to the breath attack is 10+(CL/2)+CHA. It is a level 11 creature and 19 CHA, so DC 19, which is listed. However, it is a supernatural ability, and not a spell-like ability.
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The Leanan Sidhe has Spell Focus (enchantment), and no spells. The DCs of it's enchantment SLAs do seem to benefit from Spell Focus.
here is me asking this same question.
It sounds like the ruling is that yes, feats that affects spells also affect SLAs.
Which is bonkers, but in line with the (now-defunct) "SLAs count as spells for Prestige Class pre-reqs." But that's another thread. ;-)
Well, that is for SLA that are spells. The possible confusion would be SLAs that has no spell equivalent.
A spell-like ability that isn't like any spell seems like an oxymoron. Is that a thing?
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Well, that is for SLA that are spells. The possible confusion would be SLAs that has no spell equivalent.A spell-like ability that isn't like any spell seems like an oxymoron. Is that a thing?
There are lots of them. Sorcerer bloodline powers, kineticist blasts, and some domain powers to name a few.
Well, that is for SLA that are spells. The possible confusion would be SLAs that has no spell equivalent.A spell-like ability that isn't like any spell seems like an oxymoron. Is that a thing?
Yes it is. Some domains have SLA that resemble no spells.
Some metamagic works.
I hate to be a bummer but. This FAQ is pretty explicative and omicomprehensive and totally overrides that quote.
Metamagic: Can I use a metamagic feat to alter a spell-like ability?
No. Metamagic feats specifically only affect spells, not spell-like abilities. Also, spell-like abilities do not have spell slots, so you can't adjust the effective spell slot of a spell-like ability.posted August 2011
Just because clicking the link is annoying. It is also dated after Owen's statement, so is probably a clarification.
There are lots of them. Sorcerer bloodline powers, kineticist blasts, and some domain powers to name a few.
Hmmm...I never noticed that before. That seems to be an unfortunate inconsistency in what "spell-like" means from a design point of view.
Is "spell-like" intended as a shortcut for re-using spell descriptions (which I believe was the case in older editions), a method to describe the activation mechanism of the ability, or both? The lack of clarity is problematic.
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here is me asking this same question.
The search function of this website is anywhere between bad, and also bad.
Glad to see like it'll work though. I think I have an idea for something fun, but now I need to look over a few things, see if we can't really mess up this class.
I feel it means that if you dip into sorcerer you could turn your blast into another element. Go pure Fire and change it to electric whenever you want!
why wouldn't it be allowed at a table? It's the same as making a Fireball electric.
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Because it it bending a cool effect beyond it's intended purpose. It's supposed to work on sorcerer spells. By trying to twist it to a non-arcane SLA, that is dedicated to a different element, it's clearly abusing the rules of the power. It makes no sense, and the only thing using this combo will do is cause sorcerer arcanas to be nerfed.
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Well, that is for SLA that are spells. The possible confusion would be SLAs that has no spell equivalent.A spell-like ability that isn't like any spell seems like an oxymoron. Is that a thing?Yes it is. Some domains have SLA that resemble no spells.
I hate to be a bummer but. This FAQ is pretty explicative and omicomprehensive and totally overrides that quote.Some metamagic works.
Even if not for the policy of forum posts not being official, that FAQ isn't an override of anything since the other quote is from years before Owen worked at Paizo. Incidentally, this sort of confusion was why I requested for the community team to help me out so that my old Rogue Eidolon posts did not get auto-converted to Mark Seifter.
On the subject of the question, of course, as I just said above, our posts aren't official, and honestly the whole "spell-like ability" thing is just a messy and difficult subject, so there's some middle ground that seems too murky to me to state with any certainty. I can try to draw the boundaries around that middle ground as best I see, though:
Officially on the side of working: Augment Summoning works with summon monster SLAs by FAQ, and Dimensional Agility feats work with dimension door SLA by FAQ, both officially. There isn't a general rule FAQ here, but it seems that abilities that call out a spell (or group of spells) by the spell's name are pretty likely to work with a SLA of those exact spell names.
Strongly on the side of working: Spell Penetration's rules text doesn't mention spells at all, just caster level checks to defeat SR, so it should work on SLAs with some confidence.
Strongly on the side of not working: Abilities like sorcerer arcana (and some wizard school powers like admixture) work when you "cast a spell," so those should not work on SLAs with some confidence.
Officially on the side of not working: Metamagic feats officially don't work, as per the FAQ linked by Dekalinder.
Again, just personal opinion here, not a ruling since it's a forum post, and I've avoided the cases where it's even murkier.
Because it it bending a cool effect beyond it's intended purpose. It's supposed to work on sorcerer spells. By trying to twist it to a non-arcane SLA, that is dedicated to a different element, it's clearly abusing the rules of the power. It makes no sense, and the only thing using this combo will do is cause sorcerer arcanas to be nerfed.
Bloodline arcana by FAQ affect ALL spells you have from any class. that means they effect wizard spells, bard spells, witch spells, cleric spells, oracle spells, and all psychic spell class. So the only "twisting" is if it works for SLAs since they are treated like spells for somethings.
When a later ruling changes the older one, don't you say that the older one has been overrided? I'm sorry I'm not a native english speaker but I was pretty sure that the usage of the word overrided was correct in this istance.
When a later ruling changes the older one, don't you say that the older one has been overrided? I'm sorry I'm not a native english speaker but I was pretty sure that the usage of the word overrided was correct in this istance.
Your English is perfect; much better than a lot of Americans I know, actually :)
It's not that override wasn't the right word for when a new ruling goes against the old one. It's just that the Owen post is not a ruling; it was made about 4 years before Owen even worked here (when you get hired, unless you specifically take measures to avoid this, all your old posts change to the new alias that shows your job title). The FAQ you found is the official ruling on the matter. In my case, Adam Daigle saved me from that by telling me about it (and how people sometimes found his old freelancer posts and mistook them for Developer posts), so I've been able to keep my old posts on the separate alias.
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Because it it bending a cool effect beyond it's intended purpose. It's supposed to work on sorcerer spells. By trying to twist it to a non-arcane SLA, that is dedicated to a different element, it's clearly abusing the rules of the power. It makes no sense, and the only thing using this combo will do is cause sorcerer arcanas to be nerfed.Bloodline arcana by FAQ affect ALL spells you have from any class. that means they effect wizard spells, bard spells, witch spells, cleric spells, oracle spells, and all psychic spell class. So the only "twisting" is if it works for SLAs since they are treated like spells for somethings.
And while that it true, it is not a popular outlook with a lot of GMs. I would not be surprised to see a FAQ come out that said Sorcerer Arcanas, Wizard School abilities, Oracle Mysteries and so on that modify spells cast only apply to spells granted by that class.
So Owen gave his opinion, just as if I were to say how it works. Then Later he got hired for Paizo. That doesn't make his posts before he worked for Paizo suddenly "more official" than anyone else. So the FAQ that clarified was the first Official word we had on the subject.
And while that it true, it is not a popular outlook with a lot of GMs. I would not be surprised to see a FAQ come out that said Sorcerer Arcanas, Wizard School abilities, Oracle Mysteries and so on that modify spells cast only apply to spells granted by that class.Because it it bending a cool effect beyond it's intended purpose. It's supposed to work on sorcerer spells. By trying to twist it to a non-arcane SLA, that is dedicated to a different element, it's clearly abusing the rules of the power. It makes no sense, and the only thing using this combo will do is cause sorcerer arcanas to be nerfed.Bloodline arcana by FAQ affect ALL spells you have from any class. that means they effect wizard spells, bard spells, witch spells, cleric spells, oracle spells, and all psychic spell class. So the only "twisting" is if it works for SLAs since they are treated like spells for somethings.
Well this FAQ is an actual FAQ that says the EXACT opposite of what you're proposing. So yes while they can change their mind this 5 year old FAQ has been around for 5 years and will continue to be in effect until they change their minds. Thus I will be highly surprised if they change this FAQ.
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Well this FAQ is an actual FAQ that says the EXACT opposite of what you're proposing. So yes while they can change their mind this 5 year old FAQ has been around for 5 years and will continue to be in effect until they change their minds. Thus I will be highly surprised if they change this FAQ.And while that it true, it is not a popular outlook with a lot of GMs. I would not be surprised to see a FAQ come out that said Sorcerer Arcanas, Wizard School abilities, Oracle Mysteries and so on that modify spells cast only apply to spells granted by that class.Because it it bending a cool effect beyond it's intended purpose. It's supposed to work on sorcerer spells. By trying to twist it to a non-arcane SLA, that is dedicated to a different element, it's clearly abusing the rules of the power. It makes no sense, and the only thing using this combo will do is cause sorcerer arcanas to be nerfed.Bloodline arcana by FAQ affect ALL spells you have from any class. that means they effect wizard spells, bard spells, witch spells, cleric spells, oracle spells, and all psychic spell class. So the only "twisting" is if it works for SLAs since they are treated like spells for somethings.
Maybe I'm just being gun-shy with the recent ACG and ARG errata, but this particular ruling has rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. It wouldn't be the first time a FAQ has been reversed, as shown by Flurry of Blows (good) or SLAs as prerequisites (bad). And the FAQ doesn't need to be reversed to invalidate any build that makes use of this, they only need to add the word "sorcerer" before spells in the elemental bloodline as an errata.
I am not arguing that this is in any way illegal for spells now. But SLAs are murkier, and as shown by Mark's post, not intended to work with blasts. If a FAQ or errata is made, don't be surprised if you don't like the result.
Yea now I get it. The mistake was that there was no rule to override. Originally I was so sure that that quote was not from a dev that I actually wrote it in my post, then I edited out when I checked Owen's new tag before the angry mob would catch it ^^.
They really should take your habit of having a "double identity". Next time they level up make sure they get a level in vigilante.
Yea now I get it. The mistake was that there was no rule to override. Originally I was so sure that that quote was not from a dev that I actually wrote it in my post, then I edited out when I checked Owen's new tag before the angry mob would catch it ^^.
They really should take your habit of having a "double identity". Next time they level up make sure they get a level in vigilante.
Who's that Mark Seifter guy anyway?
Only if they emulate a spell called out by name.
If you want to "spell focus" your kinetic blast, your best bet is the "elemental focus" variant. Still, "ability focus" from the monster manual is twice as effective.
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If you want to "spell focus" your kinetic blast, your best bet is the "elemental focus" variant. Still, "ability focus" from the monster manual is twice as effective.
Oh trust me, I have that listed in the guide, it's quite good, although you'd need to go Elemental Annihilator to benefit from Ability Focus.
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Ability focus should work with the standard kinetic blast.If you want to "spell focus" your kinetic blast, your best bet is the "elemental focus" variant. Still, "ability focus" from the monster manual is twice as effective.Oh trust me, I have that listed in the guide, it's quite good, although you'd need to go Elemental Annihilator to benefit from Ability Focus.
So you can use ability focus with an SLA then? I kind of remember reading that somewhere, although at least it seems like a few of the things I've wanted to clear up have been.
EDIT: I suppose since infusions as a whole are listed as a supernatural ability, you could take ability focus: infusions and get the bonus to all of them, although that feels slightly shaky.
Officially on the side of working: Augment Summoning works with summon monster SLAs by FAQ, and Dimensional Agility feats work with dimension door SLA by FAQ, both officially. There isn't a general rule FAQ here, but it seems that abilities that call out a spell (or group of spells) by the spell's name are pretty likely to work with a SLA of those exact spell names.
Strongly on the side of working: Spell Penetration's rules text doesn't mention spells at all, just caster level checks to defeat SR, so it should work on SLAs with some confidence.
Strongly on the side of not working: Abilities like sorcerer arcana (and some wizard school powers like admixture) work when you "cast a spell," so those should not work on SLAs with some confidence.
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
So it behaves as a spell and you cast it. I'm not saying that it's unarguable, but you cast a spell like ability that in all other ways behaves like a spell. But I can't be certain since mithral acting as light in all other ways wasn't actually MEANT to be all other ways so who knows. Guess we don't have rules for this yet and need to FAQ it.
The closes thing we have right now is the fact that it worked on the old Warlock, but this is very thin ice to be skating upon.