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As per the Core rulebook page 468
a single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.
The "important to me" part is the much overlooked "including from character abilities and spells" - Because, if I read this correctly, this means that a weapon with a +10 total bonus cannot be affected by Haste, Lead Blades, Enlarge Person, Magic weapon +5 bonus (if it is say +1 enhancement with +9 other random bonuses).
For example:
Sword +1 Vorpal (+5), Dancing (+4)
This sword would not be affected by a character casting haste on himself (character ability; he can still take another attack, just not with this weapon), nor could it be affected by the Holy Sword (or similar) spell.
So anything that added extra dice of damage to the weapon also wouldn't work... though rider spells would. And anything that "mimics" any of the normal weapon abilities would not work either (such as haste).
Of course, if you are running around with a +10 effective weapon, you probably aren't worried about this little "rule" that most people (including me) have probably overlooked several dozen times.
Thoughts?
It's referring to things like the magus's arcane pool, or the spell "magic weapon". Enlarge person, for example, is only increasing the size modifier and not the magic enhancement of the weapon. Haste is affecting the character, not the magic enhancements of the weapon.
Indeed, a +1 weapon with +9 everything else would, in fact, be unable to be enhanced further by spells such as magic weapon or abilities such as the magus's arcane pool, but this principle is limited exclusively to effects that increase the enhancement bonus of the weapon.
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You overlooked the "Character Abilities and spells" portion... That is my original point... we all overlook that part... because we've never read it "like that." Haste on a weapon versus "speed" is the same effect (+3 bonus equivalent on a weapon) whether it comes from a Character Ability, Spell, or Weapon Property. See the point? It counts as +3 towards the +10 limit the weapon can have (even if only temporarily because it is a 3/day SP/SU ability or a spell). The key here is the word "equivalents"... and then the SOURCES of the equivalents being MANY that are mostly (well, two: Character Abilities and Spells) overlooked.
Enlarge person I might overlook, even though I am pretty sure there is an equivalent + effect you can add to a weapon to increase it's size category one step (magically - namely +2 for IMPACT from Ultimate Equipment).
You're overlooking "enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivilants" part in the same set of parenthesis.
It's not talking about all character abilities and spells, it's talking about character abilities and spells that provide some sort of enhancement bonus or special ability bonus to the weapon.
...But Haste isn't the Speed weapon special ability. It's not the same effect, and it doesn't interact with the weapon's Enhancement bonus at all.
It's not an "equivalent" effect, it's not a weapon special ability at all, it's a spell that affects a character. It's not even a spell that affects an object. The two have NOTHING alike except that they both grant an extra attack.
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"plus special ability bonus equivalents, including from character abilities and spells"
The comma indicates sources of special ability bonus equivalents. The presiding English would indicate that "special ability bonus equivalents" are listed on the chart... .oh and COMMA, also come from character abilities and spells (cast as temporary bonuses to the item at various times). Since spells nor character abilities are on the chart... The SOURCE of these can be from places other than the chart.
Unless we are thinking about "it grants you xyz FEAT" and "you can cast xyz spell 3/day"... Which cost "something" (up to the GM) in the scheme of +10 total bonus.
That makes more sense than just ignoring these two sources of "equivalent special ability bonuses". But then what is the cost (in +1 to +10) to have a weapon cast Haste 3/day before striking? (I know they exist, as we've run through Falcon's Hollow).
I guess you do it up like any other charge/day item and add the cost... not to exceed 200,000. Alright that makes sense.
A weapon that casts spells doesn't cut into its enhancement bonus at all. There's an entirely separate pricing chart for magic item SLAs.
Examples of things that actually give "Special ability bonus equivalents":
-Magic Weapon/Fang
-Greater Magic Weapon/Fang
-Keen Edge
-Flames of the Faithful
-A Paladin's Weapon Bond
-A Magus' Arcane Pool
Do you know what all of those have in common? They grant an Enhancement bonus (explicitly) or weapon special properties (explicitly) not "if you ignore all context and squint at it from the right angle REALLY HARD it looks vaguely similar".
The problem with what you're trying to suggest is that weapon properties have very rigidly defined terminology.
An enhancement bonus is a number, 1 to 5, that can be a magic property of a magic weapon.
A special ability is a... well... special ability that can be placed on a weapon. Every special ability has an enhancement bonus equivilant.
A magic weapon's modified bonus is equal to its enhancement bonus plus its total enhancment bonus equivilant values from special abilities.
A magic weapon's maximum modified bonus is 10.
A spell is not an enhancement bonus or a special ability. It may provide one, but that doesn't mean it is one. Similarly, a class feature is also not an enhancement bonus or a special ability. It my also provide one, but that doesn't mean it is one.
Now, if you could somehow point to the "enhancment bonus equivilant" value of Haste or Enlarge person, I'd be happy to concede that it can't affect an already +10 weapon.
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...But Haste isn't the Speed weapon special ability. It's not the same effect, and it doesn't interact with the weapon's Enhancement bonus at all.
It's not an "equivalent" effect, it's not a weapon special ability at all, it's a spell that affects a character. It's not even a spell that affects an object. The two have NOTHING alike except that they both grant an extra attack.
"Character Abilities" is listed as one of the sources. So yes, Haste is a Character ability... equivalent to speed (+3)... However, after re-reading it, I comprehend that it is referring to Character Abilities and Spells "held within the weapon" and not "exerting external force on the item".
In other words, disregard this entire thread if you wish. They mean the character abilities a weapon might impart to the wielder (such as granting the Feat to use it, granting some knowledge skill, or similar such effects found elsewhere but never mentioned by price... figure it out) or the spells the weapon may be able to cast (cost determined as if it were a wondrous item, totals not to exceed 200,000 gp for one magic weapon; including costs for plusses listed and special abilities imparted to wielders and spells the weapon can cast).
Thanks guys and gals.
As per the Core rulebook page 468 ** spoiler omitted **
The "important to me" part is the much overlooked "including from character abilities and spells" - Because, if I read this correctly, this means that a weapon with a +10 total bonus cannot be affected by Haste, Lead Blades, Enlarge Person, Magic weapon +5 bonus (if it is say +1 enhancement with +9 other random bonuses).
For example:
Sword +1 Vorpal (+5), Dancing (+4)This sword would not be affected by a character casting haste on himself (character ability; he can still take another attack, just not with this weapon), nor could it be affected by the Holy Sword (or similar) spell.
So anything that added extra dice of damage to the weapon also wouldn't work... though rider spells would. And anything that "mimics" any of the normal weapon abilities would not work either (such as haste).
Of course, if you are running around with a +10 effective weapon, you probably aren't worried about this little "rule" that most people (including me) have probably overlooked several dozen times.
Thoughts?
You're seriously overthinking this and not understanding it as a result.
Each weapon can only have up to a Numerical +5 Enhancement Bonus on it, and an Effective +10 Enhancement Bonus total.
There are ways to get your Numerical Bonus temporarily above +5 (a +4 Furious weapon, for example, can hit +6 easily).
The "Through spells and abilities" is included in there because some spells and abilities, like the Paladin's Divine Bond and the Warpriests' Sacred Fist, can add Enhancement Bonuses and Abilities onto a weapon, stacking with that Weapon's Effective Enhancement Bonus.
For example, a Lv12 Warpriest/lv1 Barbarian uses Sacred Weapon on his +3 Bastardsword. His Sacred Weapon adds an Enhancement Bonus of +3 to his Bastardsword; however, because he can only raise the Numerical Bonus up to +5 per the rules of Sacred Weapon, and the remaining +1 Enhancement Bonus gets turned into a +1 Enhancement Ability. In this case, the Warpriest chooses Furious, and voila, his Bastardsword now has, in a roundabout way, a total +7 to Attack and Damage rolls.
HOWEVER... Fast-forward a few levels, to lv19 Warpriest/Lv1 Barbarian.
The Warpriest now has a +5 Flaming Frost Bastardsword (an effective +7 Enhancement Bonus); he uses Sacred Weapon to add another +4 to the mix, but now he has an issue. While he can add both Bane (+1 ability) and Furious (+1 Ability) to the weapon, the Bane and Furious abilities both increase the Numerical Bonus to Attack and Damage Rolls as high as they can before hitting the +10 Effective Enhancement Bonus ceiling (leaving him with effectively a +8 Flaming Frost Bastardsword); at the same time, the remaining +2 Bonus from his Sacred Weapon is left useless.
However, this doesn't prevent him from adding spells to the weapon.
Someone can cast Keen Edge on the weapon, and he's fine. The reason why is that Keen Edge and Keen are NOT the same thing. Keen Edge is a spell which has an effect; Keen is a Weapon Special Ability, specifically a +1 Special Ability, that uses up a "slot" on that weapon's Effective +10 Enhancement Bonus allotment.
Haste, as well, is fine, since it's not cast on the WEAPON, it's cast on the WIELDER. And even if it WERE cast on the weapon, it'd still work for the same reason Keen Edge works - it's not adding an Enhancement Bonus to the weapon, so its effects stack (Haste won't work with a weapon that has Speed, but it says as much in the rules themselves).
You can keep piling on Bonus after Bonus onto an Attack, onto a Weapon, whatever - as long as they are not the same Typed Bonuses, meaning Luck, Profane, Sacred, Enhancement, Morale, Ability, etc., they will be perfectly fine.
It's entirely possible to pump so many divergent Bonus types onto a single weapon that it swings and damages with a +25 on each roll.
The only two rules that must stick are:
1) Like-typed Bonuses don't Stack & only the biggest is used
2) No weapon or Armor can have a total Effective Enhancement Bonus greater than +10, period; that includes any effects of classes or spells which affect the Enhancement Bonus of a weapon/armor, and even the effects of the Weapon itself (such as Bane, Furious, etc.)
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As per the Core rulebook page 468 ** spoiler omitted **
The "important to me" part is the much overlooked "including from character abilities and spells" - Because, if I read this correctly, this means that a weapon with a +10 total bonus cannot be affected by Haste, Lead Blades, Enlarge Person, Magic weapon +5 bonus (if it is say +1 enhancement with +9 other random bonuses).
For example:
Sword +1 Vorpal (+5), Dancing (+4)This sword would not be affected by a character casting haste on himself (character ability; he can still take another attack, just not with this weapon), nor could it be affected by the Holy Sword (or similar) spell.
So anything that added extra dice of damage to the weapon also wouldn't work... though rider spells would. And anything that "mimics" any of the normal weapon abilities would not work either (such as haste).
Of course, if you are running around with a +10 effective weapon, you probably aren't worried about this little "rule" that most people (including me) have probably overlooked several dozen times.
Thoughts?
You're seriously overthinking this and not understanding it as a result.
Each weapon can only have up to a Numerical +5 Enhancement Bonus on it, and an Effective +10 Enhancement Bonus total.
There are ways to get your Numerical Bonus temporarily above +5 (a +4 Furious weapon, for example, can hit +6 easily).
The "Through spells and abilities" is included in there because some spells and abilities, like the Paladin's Divine Bond and the Warpriests' Sacred Fist, can add Enhancement Bonuses and Abilities onto a weapon, stacking with that Weapon's Effective Enhancement Bonus.
For example, a Lv12 Warpriest/lv1 Barbarian uses Sacred Weapon on his +3 Bastardsword. His Sacred Weapon adds an Enhancement Bonus of +3 to his Bastardsword; however, because he can only raise the Numerical Bonus up to +5 per the rules of Sacred Weapon, and the remaining +1 Enhancement Bonus gets turned into a +1 Enhancement Ability....
...But Haste isn't the Speed weapon special ability. It's not the same effect, and it doesn't interact with the weapon's Enhancement bonus at all.
It's not an "equivalent" effect, it's not a weapon special ability at all, it's a spell that affects a character. It's not even a spell that affects an object. The two have NOTHING alike except that they both grant an extra attack.
"Character Abilities" is listed as one of the sources. So yes, Haste is a Character ability... equivalent to speed (+3)... However, after re-reading it, I comprehend that it is referring to Character Abilities and Spells "held within the weapon" and not "exerting external force on the item".
In other words, disregard this entire thread if you wish. They mean the character abilities a weapon might impart to the wielder (such as granting the Feat to use it, granting some knowledge skill, or similar such effects found elsewhere but never mentioned by price... figure it out) or the spells the weapon may be able to cast (cost determined as if it were a wondrous item, totals not to exceed 200,000 gp for one magic weapon; including costs for plusses listed and special abilities imparted to wielders and spells the weapon can cast).
Thanks guys and gals.
One thing you may want to do is look up the Magic Item Compendium from 3.5, since Pathfinder is D&D 3.75 after all.
The MIC has stats for weapons going up to 300,000gp, while +10 Magic Weapons generally cost only 200,000gp.
The reason for this is that Enhancement Bonuses and other Magical effects are entirely different - it is possible to have a Weapon have a +2 Enhancement Bonus, and yet have so many freakish abilities that the weapon in question is worth 250,000gp.
The general rule-of-thumb as I recall from that book is that NO magic item can go above 300,000gp, but there is nothing stopping a Weapon from being an +5 Speed Impact Ingelligent Adamantine Weapon worth, in total, 285,000gp - you can't have an Effective Enhancement Bonus above +10, but since Intelligence is not an Enhancement Bonus granted to a weapon, and the Spell-Like Abilities it casts are Spells and not Enhancement Bonuses themselves, you are good to go with those things.