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When a creature is affected by a sleep effect, do they fall prone, drop held items or suffer any mechanical effects other than being helpless and unaware of what is happening around them?
Does the answer to the above hold regardless of the source of the sleep effect unless stated otherwise (would the Slumber Hex and Pseudodragon Poison behave the same, for example).
Hah hah, is this in response to what I posted in another thread?
A first level spell should NOT make someone helpless, prone AND disarmed.
Also, it does have RAW.
Nowhere in the spell does it say it knocks you over or forces you to drop stuff.
It also doesn't make you drown, nauseated, sickened, fatigued etc etc etc
Here is my answer.
It's not even two months old...
(you kinda have to read the whole thing though to get the full effect of the answer)
Yeah I remember that thread.
I totally did a 180 on my point of view.
Spells do what they say.
If we just arbitrarily add stuff, then... well...
Magic Missile, being a force effect, should probably produce a bullrush.
Fireball, since it is fire, should have a burn effect.
Neither have these things, because they don't have it written down.
Why should Sleep (the spell) just arbitrarily disarm AND knock over people?
It's a first level spell. Isn't being helpless bad enough?
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Oh, sure, I'm in your camp on this one Alex. My post was more of a sarcastic reference to:
1. This has come up before and a simple search can turn up many arguments friendly discussions on the subject (much friendlier after Liz deleted the more, uh, colorful posts).
and
2. The RAW needle in all those forum haystacks is that there is no simple answer that everyone agrees with, so the best bet is to read the opposing sides and make a GM-call.
I'd let someone grab an item on the ground that they're next to as part of the move action of standing up. really, its not as hard to grab something out of a sheath or off the ground when you're lying on the ground with it.
Oh, sure, I'm in your camp on this one Alex. My post was more of a sarcastic reference to:
1. This has come up before and a simple search can turn up many
argumentsfriendly discussions on the subject (much friendlier after Liz deleted the more, uh, colorful posts).and
2. The RAW needle in all those forum haystacks is that there is no simple answer that everyone agrees with, so the best bet is to read the opposing sides and make a GM-call.
The reason I changed my mind on the Sleep spell:
It's magic, so the effects are written as they are.
It's first level magic, so jeez!
Regarding NON magic sleep effects... judgement call. If someone sneaks up behind you and knocks your ass out, yup, you fall over and drop stuff.
If someone slips you a drug that makes you sleep, sure, it achieves an effect better than a spell (GASP).
Sleep effects... if Supernatural/Magic/Spells, do exactly what they say.
We don't need to make casting any more powerful than it is.
Also, I do wish that there was some mechanic that just locked threads eventually... and generated a 'original question answered-it's this:' sorta thing... Of course, that is never gonna happen, as it's all debate and people and such.
Stupid meat puppets.
I wish AI was here.
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Although the intention may be for the the Sleep spell to do more, the spell only says it inflicts the Helpless condition, which doesn't cause Prone.
The issue is further confused by magical sleep having tropes of both sleeping while lying down or while standing, so either option is a valid interpretation of "sleep" in a fantasy context.
I'd let someone grab an item on the ground that they're next to as part of the move action of standing up. really, its not as hard to grab something out of a sheath or off the ground when you're lying on the ground with it.
Since we're in the Rules Questions message board, it would be a good idea to mention that this is a house rule. By RAW, it's still a Move action to "Manipulate an Item" which includes picking up an unattended item.
I wish AI was here.
None of us will survive the Singularity...
Yep.
Sleeping and being affected by the Sleep spell are two very different things.
Specifically regarding Sleep (the spell)-if you apply effects other than what it says, you are deviating from the rules.
HOWEVER, to answer the original question, it isn't a yes/no question.
Sometimes you fall over, sometimes you don't.
For Sleep (the spell) ABSOLUTELY NOT. Because it doesn't say so!
Fly doesn't give you wings.
Disintegrate doesn't increase your Strength.
Just apply the effects as written for spells/supernatural (because they are powerful enough as it is).
If it is Ex or less... and unclear... I'm more inclined to discuss it.
Color Spray a 1st level spell.
With a very short range and duration.
Color Spray a 1st level spell.With a very short range and duration.
Someone has written the name of a spell and a short comment about range and duration...
What significance do these have?
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I'd let someone grab an item on the ground that they're next to as part of the move action of standing up. really, its not as hard to grab something out of a sheath or off the ground when you're lying on the ground with it.Since we're in the Rules Questions message board, it would be a good idea to mention that this is a house rule. By RAW, it's still a Move action to "Manipulate an Item" which includes picking up an unattended item.
The admitedly highly rules lawyery interpretation is that you can draw a weapon as part of a regular move, and standing up is a move action, not the charge the regular move gets compared to.
The "I'd let" part pretty much covers that warning not to use while nursing , pregnant, or may become pregnant after grappling the WISC. If symptom persists for more than 4 hours please see your cleric...
The fact is that when you're lying face down on the ground with the weapon sitting right next to your hand is not the area generally covered by the rules. Once you've left the jurisdiction you kind of have to wing it.
If you're going to use enough common sense to say that sleep makes you drop prone and drop a weapon you should probably apply that common sense to how easy it is to snag something you're face planting on top of.
I'd let someone grab an item on the ground that they're next to as part of the move action of standing up. really, its not as hard to grab something out of a sheath or off the ground when you're lying on the ground with it.Since we're in the Rules Questions message board, it would be a good idea to mention that this is a house rule. By RAW, it's still a Move action to "Manipulate an Item" which includes picking up an unattended item.The admitedly highly rules lawyery interpretation is that you can draw a weapon as part of a regular move, and standing up is a move action, not the charge the regular move gets compared to.
The "I'd let" part pretty much covers that warning not to use while nursing , pregnant, or may become pregnant after grappling the WISC. If symptom persists for more than 4 hours please see your cleric...
The fact is that when you're lying face down on the ground with the weapon sitting right next to your hand is not the area generally covered by the rules. Once you've left the jurisdiction you kind of have to wing it.
If you're going to use enough common sense to say that sleep makes you drop prone and drop a weapon you should probably apply that common sense to how easy it is to snag something you're face planting on top of.
Don't try to apply common sense to magical spells.
Also, it does have RAW.
Nowhere in the spell does it say it knocks you over or forces you to drop stuff.
It also doesn't make you drown, nauseated, sickened, fatigued etc etc etc
And dead doesn't stop you from acting.
This isn't as extreme as that, of course, but nonetheless lying down is usually part of sleeping, just like not doing things is part of being dead. It is certainly worthy of an FAQ at the least, because having this big rules contention on a common effect is silly.
It gets even sillier when you consider that some sleep effects aren't magic. Running magic sleep effects as keeping the victim standing while non-magic sleep effects drops them has no basis whatsoever in the rules. The effect is the same. It should behave the same (unless they decide to FAQratta how sleep works), but ATM there isn't any distinction according to the rules.
And yes, your post in the other thread prompted this thread, but it has been annoying me for a while. So congratulations on spurring me on to finally make a thread to try to resolve this.
Don't try to apply common sense to magical spells.
Or even uncommon sense - which is really just the same thing with a less deceptive label.
(that's a joking generalization, not a reference to any specific person)
Don't try to apply common sense to magical spells.Or even uncommon sense - which is really just the same thing with a less deceptive label.
(that's a joking generalization, not a reference to any specific person)
Some degree of common sense is actually built into the rules. Expect it.
but nonetheless lying down is usually part of sleeping
Maybe, but not necessarily.
My wife used to get out of bed, go to the kitchen, and start cooking. She would hold pans, spatulas, etc., open the fridge, grab food. All the while totally asleep, standing, on her feet, not prone, not disarmed. I could talk to her and she would answer, but her answers came from whatever dream she was having. For example, I could say "What are you doing?" and she might say "Don't leave the spaghetti on the TV" while she's standing in the kitchen holding a frying pan.
Thankfully, she never managed to turn on the stove.
Real world true story.
So, in our real world we have people walking, talking, and holding things, while asleep and dreaming.
It's definitely not far fetched that putting someone's brain to sleep with a magic spell might leave them walking, talking, and holding things while they are helplessly asleep on their feet.
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And dead doesn't stop you from acting.Also, it does have RAW.
Nowhere in the spell does it say it knocks you over or forces you to drop stuff.
It also doesn't make you drown, nauseated, sickened, fatigued etc etc etc
Every time I see someone using this argument I cringe but you have actually found a situation in which the comparison is completely applicable!
Sleeping and being affected by the Sleep spell are two very different things.Specifically regarding Sleep (the spell)-if you apply effects other than what it says, you are deviating from the rules.
HOWEVER, to answer the original question, it isn't a yes/no question.
Sometimes you fall over, sometimes you don't.
For Sleep (the spell) ABSOLUTELY NOT. Because it doesn't say so!
Fly doesn't give you wings.
Disintegrate doesn't increase your Strength.
Just apply the effects as written for spells/supernatural (because they are powerful enough as it is).
If it is Ex or less... and unclear... I'm more inclined to discuss it.
First off you are wrong that sleeping and and being affect by the Sleep spell are not the same. The spell says "It causes a magical slumber".
Second your argument is that spells do exactly what they say they do and no more even if the condition they cause would normally cause other effects. So even though Sleep makes you unconscious because it doesn't say you are prone and disarmed you aren't.
In that case Power Word Kill doesn't make you prone and disarmed even though death normally causes those conditions because PWK doesn't say so directly in the spell.
Your argument is ludicrous.
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And dead doesn't stop you from acting.
It does. You just have to do a dance to get there.
Dying: A dying creature is unconscious and near death. Creatures that have negative hit points and have not stabilized are dying. A dying creature can take no actions. On the character's next turn, after being reduced to negative hit points (but not dead), and on all subsequent turns, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check to become stable. The character takes a penalty on this roll equal to his negative hit point total. A character that is stable does not need to make this check. A natural 20 on this check is an automatic success. If the character fails this check, he loses 1 hit point. If a dying creature has an amount of negative hit points equal to its Constitution score, it dies.
Funnily, being dead doesn't stop the dying condition. Being dead just stops you from rolling a stabilization check while dying.
And in case you try to get around dying and straight to dead, you can't.
In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.
So, if you are dead, you are also dying. If you are dying you can't move. And the diehard feat doesn't work if you are actually dead.
And dead doesn't stop you from acting.Also, it does have RAW.
Nowhere in the spell does it say it knocks you over or forces you to drop stuff.
It also doesn't make you drown, nauseated, sickened, fatigued etc etc etc
Every time I see someone using this argument I cringe but you have actually found a situation in which the comparison is completely applicable!
Sleeping and being affected by the Sleep spell are two very different things.Specifically regarding Sleep (the spell)-if you apply effects other than what it says, you are deviating from the rules.
HOWEVER, to answer the original question, it isn't a yes/no question.
Sometimes you fall over, sometimes you don't.
For Sleep (the spell) ABSOLUTELY NOT. Because it doesn't say so!
Fly doesn't give you wings.
Disintegrate doesn't increase your Strength.
Just apply the effects as written for spells/supernatural (because they are powerful enough as it is).
If it is Ex or less... and unclear... I'm more inclined to discuss it.
First off you are wrong that sleeping and and being affect by the Sleep spell are not the same. The spell says "It causes a magical slumber".
Second your argument is that spells do exactly what they say they do and no more even if the condition they cause would normally cause other effects. So even though Sleep makes you unconscious because it doesn't say you are prone and disarmed you aren't.
In that case Power Word Kill doesn't make you prone and disarmed even though death normally causes those conditions because PWK doesn't say so directly in the spell.
Your argument is ludicrous.
If you want to add effects to published spells, you are welcome to do so.
I'm going to treat this first level magical spell with the respect it deserves, by applying all the listed effects it has.
And dead doesn't stop you from acting.It does. You just have to do a dance to get there.
Dying: A dying creature is unconscious and near death. Creatures that have negative hit points and have not stabilized are dying. A dying creature can take no actions. On the character's next turn, after being reduced to negative hit points (but not dead), and on all subsequent turns, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check to become stable. The character takes a penalty on this roll equal to his negative hit point total. A character that is stable does not need to make this check. A natural 20 on this check is an automatic success. If the character fails this check, he loses 1 hit point. If a dying creature has an amount of negative hit points equal to its Constitution score, it dies.Funnily, being dead doesn't stop the dying condition. Being dead just stops you from rolling a stabilization check.
And in case you try to get around dying and straight to dead, you can't.
In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score.So, if you are dead, you are also dying. If you are dying you can't move. And the diehard feat doesn't work if you are actually dead.
Bringing up the limitations on the Dead condition don't really have much to do with this situation.
We all know what dead people can do. What is in the book is WILDLY incomplete, and allows for actions beyond death!
The Sleep spell is a first level magical spell, and should be treated as such.
If you want to assume that certain effects should be ADDED to existing spells and conditions, that is on you.
I do FIRMLY believe that:
a) Sleep (the spell) does not knock you over or make you drop stuff
b) Sleep (the spell) makes you sleep on your feet, if you are standing.
It isn't any more unbelievable than teleportation or summoning balls of fire from nothing.
Yes, there are printed rules that are stupid (like Martial Weapon Proficiency feat not granting martial weapon proficiency), but these are not related to the discussion.
Sleep (the spell) has been around a LONG time. If was intended to cause conditions other than what is listed, I'm pretty sure one of the MANY revisions of it would have updated it.
Yep.
Bringing up the limitations on the Dead condition don't really have much to do with this situation.
We all know what dead people can do. What is in the book is WILDLY incomplete, and allows for actions beyond death!
How are you getting your dead character to do "actions beyond death" under the rules I quoted? What action is he doing?
And dead doesn't stop you from acting.Also, it does have RAW.
Nowhere in the spell does it say it knocks you over or forces you to drop stuff.
It also doesn't make you drown, nauseated, sickened, fatigued etc etc etc
Every time I see someone using this argument I cringe but you have actually found a situation in which the comparison is completely applicable!
Sleeping and being affected by the Sleep spell are two very different things.Specifically regarding Sleep (the spell)-if you apply effects other than what it says, you are deviating from the rules.
HOWEVER, to answer the original question, it isn't a yes/no question.
Sometimes you fall over, sometimes you don't.
For Sleep (the spell) ABSOLUTELY NOT. Because it doesn't say so!
Fly doesn't give you wings.
Disintegrate doesn't increase your Strength.
Just apply the effects as written for spells/supernatural (because they are powerful enough as it is).
If it is Ex or less... and unclear... I'm more inclined to discuss it.
First off you are wrong that sleeping and and being affect by the Sleep spell are not the same. The spell says "It causes a magical slumber".
Second your argument is that spells do exactly what they say they do and no more even if the condition they cause would normally cause other effects. So even though Sleep makes you unconscious because it doesn't say you are prone and disarmed you aren't.
In that case Power Word Kill doesn't make you prone and disarmed even though death normally causes those conditions because PWK doesn't say so directly in the spell.
Your argument is ludicrous.
Its a first level spell that does quite a few effects.Color Spray a 1st level spell.With a very short range and duration.Someone has written the name of a spell and a short comment about range and duration...
What significance do these have?
All of which are listed in the spell.
It does NOT increase a victims DEX score.
Nor does it heal damage.
Kinda like how Sleep (the spell) doesn't knock you over or make you drop stuff.
Color Spray a 1st level spell.With a very short range and duration.Someone has written the name of a spell and a short comment about range and duration...
What significance do these have?
Some people in this thread have been arguing that Sleep should be balanced as a first level spell, and that without prone & disarmed it's still good enough.
JS argues that Color Spray is already better and therefore reducing the power of Sleep will not aid game balance; it will just make people take Color Spray instead.
Melkiador counters that Color Spray has shorter range and duration.
Note, however, that Sleep takes longer to cast and can be cured with a single standard action from an ally, unlike 2d4 rounds of unconsciousness.
Personally I think that we should apply common sense and say that if you fell asleep in the middle of battle you would drop your weapon and fall over but unless you landed on something really soft the fall would wake you up immediately, meaning no coup de grace is possible.
Common sense is meaningless where magic is concerned. It's not as if we have sleep spells in the real world to compare to. And sleep spells in fictional worlds can work either way.
Anyway, back to the original post, I hope people are willing to admit that spells are often limited by their text...
I mean, Charm Person can't make you fly. Why is this? Because it isn't in the spell.
Heck, you can get Metamagic Feats that grant you extra effects on spells, like knocking people over or dazing them...
There ARE published rules on this, it isn't rocket science.
Sleep (the spell) does not list as part of its effect any of the following conditions:
Bleeding
Blinded
Confused
Cowering
Dazed
Dazzled
Dead
Deafened
Disabled
Dying
Energy Drained
Entangled
Exhausted
Fascinated
Fatigued
Flat-Footed
Frightened
Grappled
Nauseated
Panicked
Paralyzed
Petrified
Pinned
Prone
Shaken
Sickened
Staggered
Stunned
Unconscious
Now, the last one really confuses me. A lot.
Apparently people hit by this spell aren't actually unaware of their surroundings. Perhaps the NAME of the spell should be changed.
In any case, I apply the one effect that the spell DOES list.
Helpless.
To apply any other conditions is to break the rules.
This is ONLY in regards to the Sleep spell, of course.
And dead doesn't stop you from acting.Also, it does have RAW.
Nowhere in the spell does it say it knocks you over or forces you to drop stuff.
It also doesn't make you drown, nauseated, sickened, fatigued etc etc etc
Every time I see someone using this argument I cringe but you have actually found a situation in which the comparison is completely applicable!
Sleeping and being affected by the Sleep spell are two very different things.Specifically regarding Sleep (the spell)-if you apply effects other than what it says, you are deviating from the rules.
HOWEVER, to answer the original question, it isn't a yes/no question.
Sometimes you fall over, sometimes you don't.
For Sleep (the spell) ABSOLUTELY NOT. Because it doesn't say so!
Fly doesn't give you wings.
Disintegrate doesn't increase your Strength.
Just apply the effects as written for spells/supernatural (because they are powerful enough as it is).
If it is Ex or less... and unclear... I'm more inclined to discuss it.
First off you are wrong that sleeping and and being affect by the Sleep spell are not the same. The spell says "It causes a magical slumber".
Second your argument is that spells do exactly what they say they do and no more even if the condition they cause would normally cause other effects. So even though Sleep makes you unconscious because it doesn't say you are prone and disarmed you aren't.
In that case Power Word Kill doesn't make you prone and disarmed even though death normally causes those conditions because PWK doesn't say so directly in the spell.
Your argument is ludicrous.
If you want to add effects to published spells, you are welcome to do so.
I'm going to treat this first level magical spell with the respect it deserves, by applying all the listed effects it has.
No rebuttal to the argument just a restating of your now discredited one. Exactly what I would expect from someone making this argument in the first place.
No one is adding anything to the spells mentioned and you have offered no evidence they are. The spell cause a condition, i.e. sleeping. Sleeping carries with it certain implications, i.e. being prone and unarmed.
Your entire argument is that spell descriptions contain absolutely no implicit information or that such implicit information is somehow not really RAW.
The spell does imply it applies the Sleeping condition, but this condition is never given its own entry in the Glossary. Sleeping is also listed as a cause of Helplessness in the Helplessness entry.
For something similar note that the Unconscious condition applies the "Knocked Out" condition, which also doesn't have its own entry.
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This seems like a thread that could garner 1,000 posts and effectively come down to what your individual GM decrees.
But Liz will lock it before it gets to that stage. As last time.
*sigh*
If you guys wanna add two additional effects on top of the existing Helpless condition listed in the spell, I can't stop you.
Anyway, back to the original post, I hope people are willing to admit that spells are often limited by their text...
I mean, Charm Person can't make you fly. Why is this? Because it isn't in the spell.
Heck, you can get Metamagic Feats that grant you extra effects on spells, like knocking people over or dazing them...
There ARE published rules on this, it isn't rocket science.
Sleep (the spell) does not list as part of its effect any of the following conditions:
Bleeding
Blinded
Confused
Cowering
Dazed
Dazzled
Dead
Deafened
Disabled
Dying
Energy Drained
Entangled
Exhausted
Fascinated
Fatigued
Flat-Footed
Frightened
Grappled
Nauseated
Panicked
Paralyzed
Petrified
Pinned
Prone
Shaken
Sickened
Staggered
Stunned
UnconsciousNow, the last one really confuses me. A lot.
Apparently people hit by this spell aren't actually unaware of their surroundings. Perhaps the NAME of the spell should be changed.
In any case, I apply the one effect that the spell DOES list.
Helpless.
To apply any other conditions is to break the rules.
This is ONLY in regards to the Sleep spell, of course.
The spell causes SLUMBER. It is right in the text. Do you know what slumber means? It means sleep or unconsciousness. You are trying to ignore the actual meaning of the words in the rules in order to stick to this ridiculous argument.
And for the record, sleeping creatures are helpless.
Says so right in the spell.
Personally I think that we should apply common sense and say that if you fell asleep in the middle of battle you would drop your weapon and fall over but unless you landed on something really soft the fall would wake you up immediately, meaning no coup de grace is possible.
Personally, my common sense says that if you cast sleep on my character, I'll use my next round casting Rope Trick, then I'll climb up inside my pocket dimension, take off my adventuring gear, put on my pajamas, spread out my bedroll, and climb into bed. Because that's how my character sleeps when he's out on an adventure.
So, common sense says that casting magical sleep on me means I should sleep the way I normally do, even though the spell doesn't include anyo of that stuff, right?
When applying non-magical sleep effects, that is when we should apply common sense.
If someone spikes your drink, you go to sleep normally (probably lying down). Paralysis is a condition poisons can cause, and is not the same thing.
If someone sneaks up behind you and knocks you out, no magic is involved. Your body will fall over.
If magic does what it does, it does what's printed. Trying to add effects to an already powerful system is what is ludicrous.
Common sense in this situation should look something like this:
Sleep effects, if non-magical, make you go to sleep as you would normally expect (lie down, probably drop stuff).
Magical sleep effects should accomplish only what is actually written, as magic is silly and violates the laws of physics.