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Makes sense. But where do you draw the line? A insect on the tree? A bird in the tree? A monkey in the tree? An awakened monkey in the tree? A level 1 commoner sitting behind the tree?
At the bird, certainly. The insect I dunno.
Fireballing from invisibility was, I think, not meant to be super-easy to get away with all the time. If you want to do it, you have to be quite careful as a caster.
But that's fine, because you have several hundred other spells to indirectly attack, that don't break invisibility.
I don't know where everyone is getting this "reactive Perception check" idea from - casting a spell with a verbal component requires speaking out in a strong, clear voice. Once you cast it the enemy will know someone is nearby. Whether they know where you are or not depends on whether you retain your method of concealment or cover once you cast the spell. That still doesn't change the fact that you are getting a surprise round for sneaking up on the enemy - you could spend your action yelling at the enemy and banging pots together loudly, but as long as they didn't know you were there before you do it you still get your surprise round.If you're sneaking up on them out of combat, then yes, a surprise round is started. That's the easy case. It's not so clear what happens if you'll pulling this stunt after combat has started, however, as the chance for a surprise round has already passed.
You are right that there is no surprise round once combat has begun. That doesn't change that the enemy has to be able to perceive you to react. If you Stealth up to someone who doesn't know you are there, they are unaware and cannot make any attacks of opportunity against you. If that wasn't the case and making noise just before attacking ruins your attempt to Stealth, there would be rules covering it. There are none.
Also I refuse to believe casting a spell provokes when you were invisible or stealthed and that the enemy wouldn't be flatfooted. Paizo wouldn't have bothered making the Arcane Trickster if that was the case.
Also I refuse to believe casting a spell provokes when you were invisible or stealthed and that the enemy wouldn't be flatfooted. Paizo wouldn't have bothered making the Arcane Trickster if that was the case.
Getting someone Flat-Footed is very difficult, and not needed for sneak attack, etc. Denied Dex to AC is a much easier condition to achieve, and allows sneak attacks, etc.
/cevah
It's true that if you Stealth up to someone they will likely be unaware. However, if you begin speaking in a loud voice (casting), they receive a new passive perception check (and will most likely make it as it's typically DC 0), thus making them aware. You are now no longer stealthed to them and they can thus react to you normally.
The counter argument to this, by the way, is that all actions in combat are essentially instantaneous. Thus finishing the cast happens at the same as beginning it, meaning that there is no interval of time in between for them to make use of their new-found awareness of your presence.
Anyway, Stealth rules are still a bit of a mess, and GMs will often be forced to wing it and make a reasonable decision when non-textbook situations emerge.
Go reread the Breaking Stealth post I made with the CRB's errata.
You are not seen until after you attack (i.e. cast that spell).
Even if you do not speak, just being there is a DC 0 perception check since there is no facing in PF.
To run it your way, no rogue would ever get a sneak attack from stealth.
/cevah
I am aware of the Breaking Stealth rules, but what you seem to be overlooking is the "as long as you succeed at a Stealth check" part of it. You must still succeed on a relevant stealth check versus their perception when Breaking Stealth. If you're speaking in a loud voice, your chances of succeeding on this check aren't high... in fact, I question whether you even still qualify as attempting to use stealth.
"...you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check end your turn in cover or concealment..."
Read them again. You need to make the check only if you wish to remain hidden at the end of the turn when you have found cover/concealment.
You do not need to make a check if you make an attack.
/cevah
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).Hmmn, I suppose you're right there, although that sentence is actually pretty poorly worded:
+1
It says you must end your turn in cover or concealment to remain unobserved when you break stealth.
Not quite. It tells you that if you make the check, and gain cover/concealment by the end of your movement, you retain stealth. You never broke stealth in this case.
Thus, you need to end your turn (in cover/concealment and make your stealth check), then rewind time and make the attack, since you won't know if you actually had stealth until your end of turn is resolved.
No rewind needed. Perception is reactive. It reacts to your breaking stealth. You break AFTER your attack.
In any case, this still doesn't resolve the question of whether people are allowed to passively perceive stimulus (with a set DC on the perception table) versus people taking actions while stealthed.
Yes it does. The get a reactive perception check against the stealth check of the one hiding, AFTER there is a reason to check, i.e. attack, shout, cast a spell, etc.
Check out Stealth Playtest, Round Two for the designer's thoughts.
/cevah
The target of the stealth check makes their perception check at the most opportune time for them.
That DC 0 for when you're casting a spell seems like a good time.
What I'm seeing a lot of here is people claiming that making any amount of noise during an action breaks your stealth, preventing you from benefiting from it during that action. I say back it up.
Getting someone Flat-Footed is very difficult, and not needed for sneak attack, etc. Denied Dex to AC is a much easier condition to achieve, and allows sneak attacks, etc.
Correct. Should've said "loses Dex bonus to AC".
Actions provoke that say they do.
Some abilities change if an action provokes.
Some circumstances prevent an otherwise able attacker from being able to utilize provocations.You absolutely still provoke from invis/stealth, they simply can't take advantage of it.
Also true, should've said "Can't take attacks of opportunity against a target with total concealment".
It's true that if you Stealth up to someone they will likely be unaware. However, if you begin speaking in a loud voice (casting), they receive a new passive perception check (and will most likely make it as it's typically DC 0), thus making them aware. You are now no longer stealthed to them and they can thus react to you normally.
Show me the rules text that allows a new perception check mid-action to negate stealth. I'm sure all the rogues would love to know the next time some poor sap says "I quickly draw my knife and stab him" that the GM is adhering to RAW when they say "The knife makes a noise when you draw it, the enemy now knows you are there, no sneak attack for you". Tell me, how is the Arcane Trickster ever supposed to get a sneak attack from a spell without using a Silent Spell? Or would you rule that the "sound of electricity arcing through the air" is enough to get one of these "reactive perception checks"?
The target of the stealth check makes their perception check at the most opportune time for them.
That DC 0 for when you're casting a spell seems like a good time.
Oh, they can? Well then, in that case, I choose to always make my perception checks when a stealthing creature moves (DC 10 to hear walking), speaks (DC 0), whispers (DC 15), or draws a bow (DC 25). That way I will never be caught unaware. Your passive perception is passive, you don't decide to use it whenever it's most convenient because it's always on.
You're conveniently ignoring the part of the table where it says "Notice a creature using Stealth" and the DC is "Opposed by Stealth". Sure, you can hear a wizard casting his spell, but can you see him? Opposed by stealth. As we have shown above, you don't lose your stealth until after you have made an attack, which includes casting an offensive spell. There is no rules text supporting this "reactive perception check" interpretation.
Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
@Byakko: How are getting a move action in the middle of someone else's turn? You are not. You only get the reactive perception check. That check occurs after stealth is broken. Getting it before will break the concept of stealth for every stealthy character. Stealth is hard enough as it is.
/cevah
although, i can't really see the point to this.
You can stealth, try to beat their perception, walk up to them and maybe cast... but if you're getting that close with a touch attack, why not just cast move and then touch, which you can explicitly do in the same round? (see touch attacks)
Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.@Byakko: How are getting a move action in the middle of someone else's turn? You are not. You only get the reactive perception check. That check occurs after stealth is broken. Getting it before will break the concept of stealth for every stealthy character. Stealth is hard enough as it is.
/cevah
You left off half the quote:
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.Or are you saying that a person trying to use stealth can do whatever they want, and no matter how noisy, loud and obvious it is, will remain hidden?
So there's where the reactive bit is. I can see how that would cause confusion.
Perception checks are usually reactive. The general rule is that whenever something happens that can be observed by any sense (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste, or other unusual in-game senses like lifesense or tremorsense or whatever), your opponent gets to attempt a reactive Perception check - unless you find a specific rule that breaks this general rule.
Stealth gives a specific rule that you can make one attack without allowing the reactive Perception check. This is a specific rule that overrides the general rule for attacks only. This is not across-the-board permission to do EVERYTHING without allowing the reactive Perception check.
Spellcasting can always be observed. Therefore spellcasting always allows the reactive Perception check, regardless of whether the spell is an attack or not. This means that that the general rule for reactive Perception checks always applies to allow enemies make this check to observe ALL spellcasting. The Stealth rules make a specific exception for attacks but do not make a specific exception for spellcasting, so the general rule still applies.
Ergo, if you try to use Stealth to move up to an enemy and then cast any spell, he gets a reactive Perception check to observe you. If he succeeds, then the general rules about spellcasting and AoO are applied as normal.
Perception checks are usually reactive. The general rule is that whenever something happens that can be observed by any sense (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste, or other unusual in-game senses like lifesense or tremorsense or whatever), your opponent gets to attempt a reactive Perception check - unless you find a specific rule that breaks this general rule.
Stealth gives a specific rule that you can make one attack without allowing the reactive Perception check. This is a specific rule that overrides the general rule for attacks only. This is not across-the-board permission to do EVERYTHING without allowing the reactive Perception check.
Spellcasting can always be observed. Therefore spellcasting always allows the reactive Perception check, regardless of whether the spell is an attack or not. This means that that the general rule for reactive Perception checks always applies to allow enemies make this check to observe ALL spellcasting. The Stealth rules make a specific exception for attacks but do not make a specific exception for spellcasting, so the general rule still applies.
Ergo, if you try to use Stealth to move up to an enemy and then cast any spell, he gets a reactive Perception check to observe you. If he succeeds, then the general rules about spellcasting and AoO are applied as normal.
I'd add the qualifier "if you lose cover/concealment before casting the spell". For instance, if you are invisible, sneak up to a guy, then start casting a spell, it won't matter if he hears you - you're invisible until you target him or include him in the area of effect, which isn't chosen until the spell has finished being cast. Therefore you don't lose invisibility until it's too late.
Likewise, if you are hiding in heavy underbrush and begin casting a spell when an enemy comes too close, you are still stealthed regardless of how loud you speak - they can hear you, but they cannot see you.
However, if you start the turn stealthed, leave your cover/concealment to move up, then cast a spell, you no longer have cover/concealment so you cannot use stealth. Hide in Plain Sight and similar abilities would prevent this issue from coming up.
Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.@Byakko: How are getting a move action in the middle of someone else's turn? You are not. You only get the reactive perception check. That check occurs after stealth is broken. Getting it before will break the concept of stealth for every stealthy character. Stealth is hard enough as it is.
/cevah
You left off half the quote:
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.Or are you saying that a person trying to use stealth can do whatever they want, and no matter how noisy, loud and obvious it is, will remain hidden?
Did you read the part where I said "You only get the reactive perception check."?
I am not saying they will remain hidden. I am saying they will be hidden until after the action that breaks stealth. That is, in this case, casting the spell.
It looks like people are combining some rules elements from two completely different situations. Here's a more clear description of the two, at least how I see it.
1. You are behind cover or concealment.
As long as you are in an area cover or concealment, or have some other method of remaining unobserved (such as Hide in Plain Sight) you can use Stealth to avoid being detected. Your enemies do not get to make Perception checks to see you or hear your movement at a flat DC, instead they are forced to make Perception checks opposed by your Stealth.
1-Exception: This skill covers hiding and moving silently. If you are speaking, are covered in rotting garbage, or are doing something else that allows a flat Perception DC and is not covered by the Stealth skill, your enemies can still become aware of that normally, although that doesn't necessarily break your Stealth.2. You are not behind cover or concealment.
If you move out from cover or concealment (or whatever method you are using to avoid being observed), even in the middle of a turn, you immediately lose the ability to use Stealth. Any and all your actions and attributes can be detected normally with a reactive Perception check, including the DC 0 check to notice a visible creature and the DC 10 check to hear the sound of a creature walking.
2-Exception: If you both begin and end your turn in an area of cover or concealment, you can make a Stealth check to avoid becoming observed at all during your turn, even while moving through an open space. In order for a player to use this option, I would require them to decide the path of their movement before exiting cover or concealment in order to avoid breaking Stealth, as this is the only way to know where they will end up.Does that seem right to you?
No.
1) You are in cover/concealment
Unless your opponent has a means of piercing cover/concealment, they cannot locate you. Only your square, maybe. Stealth can make the check more difficult.
If you speak/cast/make noise/smell bad, that is a modifier on the check. It does not invalidate any stealth modifier in play.
2) You leave cover/concealment
2a) You are not in stealth
Your opponent gets a perception check, and can react to you if they notice you.
2b) You are in stealth
2b-1) You move into cover/concealment elsewhere.
You make a stealth check vs your opponent's perception check. If you succeed, they do not notice you.
2b-2) You attack, without sniping
Your opponent is not aware of you, so they are denied Dex to AC and cannot take AoOs against your action. After the attack, the opponent makes a Perception check to spot you.
2b-2) You attack, with sniping
Your opponent is not aware of you, so they are denied Dex to AC and cannot take AoOs against your action. You make a stealth check vs. the the opponent, and if you succeed, you maintain stealth. If you fail, the opponent perceives you.
Stealth gives a specific rule that you can make one attack without allowing the reactive Perception check. This is a specific rule that overrides the general rule for attacks only. This is not across-the-board permission to do EVERYTHING without allowing the reactive Perception check.
It is not permission to do ANYTHING without allowing the reactive Perception check.
It DELAYS the check until after the action.Sniping has additional rules that allow you to re-enter stealth, which has a significant penalty.
Spellcasting can always be observed. Therefore spellcasting always allows the reactive Perception check, regardless of whether the spell is an attack or not. This means that that the general rule for reactive Perception checks always applies to allow enemies make this check to observe ALL spellcasting. The Stealth rules make a specific exception for attacks but do not make a specific exception for spellcasting, so the general rule still applies.
Stealth, other than sniping, does not make an exception. It delays it. Sniping also has a check, but allows stealth bonus/penalty to apply.
Ergo, if you try to use Stealth to move up to an enemy and then cast any spell, he gets a reactive Perception check to observe you. If he succeeds, then the general rules about spellcasting and AoO are applied as normal.
Except for the fact that you complete the spell before he gets the check.
However, if you start the turn stealthed, leave your cover/concealment to move up, then cast a spell, you no longer have cover/concealment so you cannot use stealth. Hide in Plain Sight and similar abilities would prevent this issue from coming up.
You do not break stealth until after the spell is cast. Thus, no AoO.
/cevah
If you leave cover/concealment you break stealth. It is the movement action that breaks the stealth before you can start your standard action of cast a spell.
If you leave cover/concealment you break stealth. It is the movement action that breaks the stealth before you can start your standard action of cast a spell.
Not exactly - the stealth rules allow for an attack after intentionally moving out of cover/concealment, but they don't account for any other standard action, such as casting a spell. So if this wizard cast Shocking Grasp, then moved up and delivered the spell, his enemy would lose Dex to AC and be unable to take any AoOs provoked, but since he wants to move out then cast a spell there's a problem.
Cevah, I'd like to remind you that the "Breaking Stealth" rules for stealth only apply if you "end your turn in cover or concealment". If you walk up to someone and cast a spell, you don't qualify for that rules block. Even if you do find a way to end your turn in stealth, this doesn't negate the Perception skill's rules for being able to detect things with a flat DC that you might do.
Oddly, you don't seem to qualify for the "Breaking Stealth" rules even if you're stealthing up to someone to attack, as you're again not ending your turn in cover/concealment. It is, however, apparent that this was the intent based on blog entries and dev posts.
This is one example of why I continue to claim the stealth/perception rules are very poorly written.
Think about what you wrote. How can you be breaking stealth when you are still hiding by gaining cover/concealment? Breaking stealth is about when you loose stealth. You don't loose it when you gained cover/concealment at the end of your turn.
If you leave cover/concealment you break stealth. It is the movement action that breaks the stealth before you can start your standard action of cast a spell.
Not what the rules say. Leaving cover/concealment does not break stealth. Attacking does.
Not exactly - the stealth rules allow for an attack after intentionally moving out of cover/concealment, but they don't account for any other standard action, such as casting a spell. So if this wizard cast Shocking Grasp, then moved up and delivered the spell, his enemy would lose Dex to AC and be unable to take any AoOs provoked, but since he wants to move out then cast a spell there's a problem.
Does this mean that if I move then cast an attack spell I am stealthed, but if I cast another kind of spell I am not? That makes no sense.
/cevah
If you leave cover/concealment you break stealth. It is the movement action that breaks the stealth before you can start your standard action of cast a spell.Not exactly - the stealth rules allow for an attack after intentionally moving out of cover/concealment, but they don't account for any other standard action, such as casting a spell. So if this wizard cast Shocking Grasp, then moved up and delivered the spell, his enemy would lose Dex to AC and be unable to take any AoOs provoked, but since he wants to move out then cast a spell there's a problem.
The rules allow you to move from cover to cover, not stop in the middle. If your move action ends and you are not in cover or concealment you have broken stealth.
The rules allow you to move from cover to cover, not stop in the middle. If your move action ends and you are not in cover or concealment you have broken stealth.If you leave cover/concealment you break stealth. It is the movement action that breaks the stealth before you can start your standard action of cast a spell.Not exactly - the stealth rules allow for an attack after intentionally moving out of cover/concealment, but they don't account for any other standard action, such as casting a spell. So if this wizard cast Shocking Grasp, then moved up and delivered the spell, his enemy would lose Dex to AC and be unable to take any AoOs provoked, but since he wants to move out then cast a spell there's a problem.
You are supposed to be able to attack from stealth. This would make that rather hard.
On the other hand, the expeditiously retreating rogue making a stealth check from 40 feet away walking aroound a corner and ganking people doesn't sound like it should happen either.
If you want to attack from stealth, you need to be using Stealth when you make the attack - which means you need to have cover or concealment, or use some other method of remaining unobserved all the way up until you make an attack roll.
In a typical situation, you don't actually need to attack from Stealth - you can just use Stealth to get a surprise round and charge or make a ranged attack. Your foe is still flat-footed, even though you break Stealth before you attack them.
Not according to Breaking Stealth. If you start in cover/concealment & stealth, you can cross out in the open and still attack with stealth.
/cevah
If you start and end in cover or concealment and Stealth, you can cross out in the open and still attack with Stealth.
So I need spring attack to do this? I don't think so.
Being Observed: ...Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).The default rule is that you need cover, concealment, or another method of being unobserved to use Stealth.
+1
There is an exception to this rule, which allows you to continue using Stealth when moving out of cover or concealment,but only if you also end your turn in cover or concealment.
You are not using stealth. You are stealthed. The difference is that to use stealth, you need to make a check.
You are not required to end in c/c. Rather, if you end in c/c, you can maintain stealth with a check./cevah
The rules allow you to move from cover to cover, not stop in the middle. If your move action ends and you are not in cover or concealment you have broken stealth.If you leave cover/concealment you break stealth. It is the movement action that breaks the stealth before you can start your standard action of cast a spell.Not exactly - the stealth rules allow for an attack after intentionally moving out of cover/concealment, but they don't account for any other standard action, such as casting a spell. So if this wizard cast Shocking Grasp, then moved up and delivered the spell, his enemy would lose Dex to AC and be unable to take any AoOs provoked, but since he wants to move out then cast a spell there's a problem.You are supposed to be able to attack from stealth. This would make that rather hard.
On the other hand, the expeditiously retreating rogue making a stealth check from 40 feet away walking aroound a corner and ganking people doesn't sound like it should happen either.
You can attack from stealth. But it is much easier to do so with a ranged weapon. The target generally must be adjacent to (or in) the cover/concealment to make a melee attack from stealth.
Spring Attack, and touch spell delivery virtual spring attack are some interesting corner cases.
You are not using stealth. You are stealthed. The difference is that to use stealth, you need to make a check.Notice a creature using Stealth----------Opposed by StealthIf you're not using Stealth, your enemies Perception checks aren't opposed by your Stealth check. There is no such thing as the "stealthed" condition in Pathfinder. Also, even if you did treat "using Stealth" as "only while making the roll itself," remember that you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so you can't just use Stealth at the beginning of your turn and then be fine while going out in the open.
1) That is what the 2nd stealth playtest was hammering out. It resulted in the Breaking Stealth rule. Your stealth check to hide last turn was opposed to their perception check. You don't need to make another if you are just going to move and attack.
2) You can make a stealth check at the beginning of a turn, then make an attack from stealth. Imagine you are in the shadow of a wall 20' from an open door in the wall with a guard there. You move 20' to the door and make a stealth check. You are now adjacent and may have succeeded in your stealth check. Now you attack. If you succeeded with stealth, you get sneak attack since the guard was not aware of you.
You are not required to end in c/c. Rather, if you end in c/c, you can maintain stealth with a check.That is true. And the inverse is that if you do not end in cover or concealment, you cannot maintain Stealth with a check. You simply use what we both just agreed was the default rule: once you leave cover or concealment, you can no longer use Stealth. And when you are no longer using Stealth, your enemies can make Perception checks to see you at a flat DC.
We did not agree.
When you leave c/c, you cannot make a stealth check. You can still use stealth.If you already have stealth (i.e. are stealthed), you can leave and attack with the benefit of stealth. They do NOT get a flat DC check to see you. They have already made the check and failed. You loose stealth when your turn ends unless you succeed at the check opposed by their perception.
Remember, you said:
If you start and end in cover or concealment and Stealth, you can cross out in the open and still attack with Stealth.
This states you need a move action, a standard action, and a second move action to attack with stealth. Not normally possible. You can achieve this with Spring Attack, or a Quick Runner's Shirt. Neither available to 1st level rogues which should be able to attack with stealth.
Keep in mind the following:
You can still make ranged attacks from cover or concealment normally, using the sniping rules if you wish to remain hidden after you attack.
Agreed.
You still get a surprise round when you win Stealth against an unaware opponent. This makes your opponent flat-footed until they act.
Wrong.
You get a surprise round if your opponents were unaware of you when combat starts. Being stealthed does not change this. If you set up an ambush where your party lies in wait behind some barrels waiting for someone to walk past, you are concealed but not stealthed. You get a surprise round here.
Getting someone flat footed is very difficult. Before you have had your first action in initiative is the most common way. Stealth cannot make someone flat-footed. It can make someone loose Dex to AC due to being unaware.
You can still use Stealth before making a melee attack, if you can remain unobserved. The simplest method is by moving to a square adjacent to your target that has cover or concealment, and then attacking from there. But there are several other ways: spells such as Blur, Blink, and Invisibility; movement methods such as Spring Attack, Ride-by Attack, and Flyby Attack; and even abilities such as Hide in Plain Sight.
Show me how a 1st level rogue attacks with stealth. Assume a fight where one bad guy and one hidden rogue are left. No one to flank with, surprise round long gone. Bad guy is in an open area with a reach weapon and a 10' wide strip free of c/c. Rogue only has a melee weapon.
With your interpretation, the rogue cannot make a sneak attack, and trying makes him eat an AoO.
Breaking Stealth is how to make this work the way it should.
/cevah
although, i can't really see the point to this.
You can stealth, try to beat their perception, walk up to them and maybe cast... but if you're getting that close with a touch attack, why not just cast move and then touch, which you can explicitly do in the same round? (see touch attacks)
Well... yeah... if you want to do this the easy way.
1) That is what the 2nd stealth playtest was hammering out. It resulted in the Breaking Stealth rule. Your stealth check to hide last turn was opposed to their perception check. You don't need to make another if you are just going to move and attack.You seem very hung up on the Breaking Stealth rules, even though I've already mentioned that they don't do what you seem to be claiming. Let's look at what the text for those rules actually says:
1. “When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment.”
This sentence only allows you to remain unobserved when you both start and end your turn in cover or concealment. If you instead move out of cover or concealment entirely and do not return, this sentence does not apply. Does that seem right to you?
"you both start and end your turn"? No. Only end, with a successful check.
2. “Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).”
This sentence causes your Stealth to end whenever you make an attack roll, in addition to other things that normally end your Stealth. It does not allow you in any circumstance to remain hidden for longer than you would be able to without this sentence. Does that seem right to you?
OK on this part.
And that’s it. There’s nothing about any sort of “lingering stealth” period in which you can remain unobserved after you leave one area of cover and concealment without entering another before the end of your turn.
Except that you can be stealthed, move, and then loose stealth. That check you make is at the end of the turn. Until then, your previous opposed check determines if they spot you. This is the same way the sniping rules work. This is the "lingering stealth" you fail to see.
2) You can make a stealth check at the beginning of a turn, then make an attack from stealth. Imagine you are in the shadow of a wall 20' from an open door in the wall with a guard there. You move 20' to the door and make a stealth check. You are now adjacent and may have succeeded in your stealth check. Now you attack. If you succeeded with stealth, you get sneak attack since the guard was not aware of you.You cannot just make a Stealth check at the beginning of your turn. You normally make Stealth checks as a part of movement, and you can’t use Stealth when you leave cover or concealment barring the specific exception from the Breaking Stealth rules. But normally, barring special abilities, if move out into the open, you lose Stealth, because you lose cover and concealment and are no longer considered unobserved.
You mean I cannot take a move action while in c/c and make a stealth check as the first action of my turn? Please cite the rule. I don't even need to stay in c/c. As long as the check is made before leaving c/c, I can do it.
We did not agree.
When you leave c/c, you cannot make a stealth check. You can still use stealth.
If you already have stealth (i.e. are stealthed), you can leave and attack with the benefit of stealth. They do NOT get a flat DC check to see you. They have already made the check and failed. You loose stealth when your turn ends unless you succeed at the check opposed by their perception.Notice a creature using Stealth----------Opposed by StealthIf people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.Barring special cases, if people can observe you (if you’re not in cover or concealment), then you cannot use Stealth. If you are not using Stealth, then creatures trying to see you with Perception do not need to make a check opposed by your Stealth check. It’s really pretty straightforward, and what time you make the check in your turn doesn’t change that.
And besides, Stealth checks are normally made as a part of movement.
You CAN use stealth.
You CANNOT make a stealth check.Two different things.
This states you need a move action, a standard action, and a second move action to attack with stealth. Not normally possible. You can achieve this with Spring Attack, or a Quick Runner's Shirt. Neither available to 1st level rogues which should be able to attack with stealth.First of all, I’m not sure what you mean by “this states.” I didn’t just make that sentence up, that’s a paraphrase of the exact rule contained in the Breaking Stealth section you like to refer to so much, so if that’s what this states, then that’s what the rule is, even if you feel that it “shouldn’t.”
"This states" were the words I quoted you saying immediately before the actual words "This states".
Remember, you said:
If you start and end in cover or concealment and Stealth, you can cross out in the open and still attack with Stealth.
You made it up, since it does not paraphrase the rule.
Second of all, you do realize that it’s possible to have cover or concealment adjacent to an enemy, right? So that first level rogue of yours can move to attack a guard from Stealth in the darkness, and this rule means he doesn’t have to break his Stealth, even temporarily, just because he ran through the torchlight from another guards torch.
Actually, unless he sniped, he did loose stealth doing what you just said. Attacking breaks stealth. He may still be in c/c, but he is not stealthed.
Yes, I know how surprise rounds work.Wrong.
You get a surprise round if your opponents were unaware of you when combat starts. Being stealthed does not change this. If you set up an ambush where your party lies in wait behind some barrels waiting for someone to walk past, you are concealed but not stealthed. You get a surprise round here.
Getting someone flat footed is very difficult. Before you have had your first action in initiative is the most common way. Stealth cannot make someone flat-footed. It can make someone loose Dex to AC due to being unaware.
Really? You said:
You still get a surprise round when you win Stealth against an unaware opponent. This makes your opponent flat-footed until they act.
I might have arrived late to the party. I can "win stealth" after combat has started.
It does not get me a surprise round.It does not make my opponent flat-footed.
Obviously Stealth doesn’t make your enemies flat-footed in the middle of combat, hence my talk of “surprise round” and “unaware opponent” and “until they act.” My point was that your enemies can usually make a Perception check to determine whether they notice you or are unaware at the start of combat, and that Perception check tends to be a good deal harder if you’re using Stealth.
Stealth can never make someone flat-footed. It can only deny them their dexterity to AC.
Show me how a 1st level rogue attacks with stealth. Assume a fight where one bad guy and one hidden rogue are left. No one to flank with, surprise round long gone. Bad guy is in an open area with a reach weapon and a 10' wide strip free of c/c. Rogue only has a melee weapon.
With your interpretation, the rogue cannot make a sneak attack, and trying makes him eat an AoO.
<sniped hyperbole, even if entertaining>
In all seriousness though, what on earth makes you think that a level one rogue should be entitled to sneak attack when trying to attack an enemy alone and in melee, when that enemy is standing in the middle of a 10-foot area of well-lit emptiness and is already aware that there is a fight going on? That’s sort of the whole point behind the requirement of cover or concealment to use Stealth, as well as the existence of abilities like Hide in Plain Sight.
Oh, about 30+ years of role playing.
Oy yeah. The Stealth Playtest, Round II.Just for the record, the rogue in question has several tactical options that are superior than trying to move up to their enemy and attack. These include, in order of effectiveness:
1. Running away.
2. Waiting for the enemy to try to leave their well-lit emptiness before attacking them.
3. Sniping the enemy with thrown rocks (with which you get sneak attack damage, if that makes you feel better about your life)
1. Live while the rest of your party gets slaughtered. Right.
2. Viable, as long as they don't start "Coup de Grace"-ing your party.3. A) Hope you have enough rocks. B) Penalties for distance and improvised weapons. C)Hope you get lucky on sniping with that -20 penalty. D) Hope your opponent does not search the shadows for you.
I don't see any of these valid options as being viable for play.
Breaking Stealth is how to make this work the way it should.Breaking Stealth doesn’t do that, and I have no idea why you think that’s the way this should work.
And there is the crux. You do not understand the stealth rules.
/cevah
Well, the stupefying bickering definitely lulled me into a trance, so now I will auto-fail all my Perception checks. Now you can take your time and stroll right up to me and coup-de-grace and I can't.... do........ anything............
(good news though, 3 rounds after you pwn me, I will be right back)
(weird news: "pwn" passed the spell-checker but "coup-de-grace" did not)
1. “When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment.”"you both start and end your turn"? No. Only end, with a successful check.Cevah, it actually says right there (the bolded words) that you must both start your turn using stealth and end your turn in cover or concealment (with a successful Stealth check) to gain the benefit of remaining unobserved.
I'm having trouble comprehending how you could read that sentence differently...
I am not.
Try reading the full quote:
"you both start and end your turn"? No. Only end, with a successful check.1. “When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment.”
This sentence only allows you to remain unobserved when you both start and end your turn in cover or concealment. If you instead move out of cover or concealment entirely and do not return, this sentence does not apply. Does that seem right to you?
I was talking about the bold text that Avoron keeps thinking is the rule.
/cevah
An Internet Argument Death Spiral
"you both start and end your turn"? No. Only end, with a successful check.
When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment.
But not what you said
That check you make is at the end of the turn.
Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement
If you end your turn w/o c/c, you lose stealth. If you end your turn with an attack, you lose stealth. If you end your turn with a stealth check as part of a move action, then you effectively are making the check at the end of the turn as I said.
This is the same way the sniping rules work.
you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again
Yep. As a move action after the attack, this ends your turn.
You mean I cannot take a move action while in c/c and make a stealth check as the first action of my turn? Please cite the rule.
Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action.
Do you understand English? Verbs: Move, Make, Conjunction: And. This means they take place at the same time. Perhaps the words "as the first action of my turn" should have clued you in.
You CAN use stealth.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.
Here the text is bad. They should have said make a stealth check, as that is what you are prevented from doing. Breaking Stealth clearly states you can use stealth out in the open for a limited amount of time where you can be observed.
You made it up, since it does not paraphrase the rule.
express the meaning of (the writer or speaker or something written or spoken) using different words, especially to achieve greater clarity.
When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment.
If you start and end in cover or concealment and Stealth, you can cross out in the open and still attack with Stealth.
This does not say the same as the two sentences do. Your “paraphrase” has three actions occurring in a round. You cannot attack and remain in stealth at the end of your turn without something special going on like greater invisibility. By trying to combine the two sentences into one, you failed your grammar check.
Actually, unless he sniped, he did loose stealth doing what you just said. Attacking breaks stealth.
this rule means he doesn’t have to break his Stealth, even temporarily, just because he ran through the torchlight from another guards torch.
And he did not. He lost it because he attacked. Did you forget you wrote that?
I might have arrived late to the party. I can "win stealth" after combat has started.
It does not get me a surprise round.
It does not make my opponent flat-footed.
Yes, I know how surprise rounds work.
Not according to what you wrote.
Stealth can never make someone flat-footed. It can only deny them their dexterity to AC.
Obviously Stealth doesn’t make your enemies flat-footed in the middle of combat, hence my talk of “surprise round” and “unaware opponent” and “until they act.” My point was that your enemies can usually make a Perception check to determine whether they notice you or are unaware at the start of combat, and that Perception check tends to be a good deal harder if you’re using Stealth.
Repeating your words doesn’t make it any truer.
I don't see any of these valid options as being viable for play.
Just for the record, the rogue in question has several tactical options that are superior than trying to move up to their enemy and attack.
I never disputed your action choices were valid or even good for the rogue’s health. I said they were not good for the party. Not the same thing.
And there is the crux. You do not understand the stealth rules.
Let's look at what the text for those rules actually says
Showing me what I have been quoting to you does not help your argument.
/cevah
Avoron's text made no reference to the required stealth check. That check is required to stay in stealth.
/cevah