Ninjas do not get proficiency with any non-lethal weapon.
But rogues get proficiency with the Sap. :-(
Besides spending a feat for a weapon proficiency with a non-lethal weapon, or a class level in a class that gets it, what is a ninja to do when capture is desired rather than killing?
The Merciful enchant needs an initial +1, meaning you need a regular weapon > 8300 gp.
Unarmed Attacks provoke AoO unless you spend a feat.
Is there a less expensive way to make a non-lethal attack than a feat or 8300+ gp?
/cevah
You can take a non-lethal attack with any weapon at a -4 to attack.
Edit: Source.
Under Nonlethal Damage, You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.
Ultimate Combat has a feat called Bludgeoner which allows you to deal non-lethal damage without taking a -4 attack penalty (bludgeoning weapons only). Additionally, you deal non-lethal sneak attacks with lethal bludgeoning weapons.
Imbicatus, that wont work for Cevah. In order to get non-lethal sneak attack damage with a lethal weapon he must have an ability that states he can do so.
While there are many feats/traits that remove the -4 attack penalty, there is only one I can find (Bludgeoner) that allows you to make a non-lethal sneak attack with a lethal weapon.
Also, the -4 option doesn't work very well with sneak attack.
|
Ah. Yeah, I forgot about the sneak attack rule. Yeah, you'll need Bludgeoner or unarmed strikes then.
If you have total concealment from a foe from vanish, you can use unarmed strike without the improved version without provoking. Or rather you do provoke, but they cannot take an AoO against an opponent with total concealment.
But you can pick up bludgeoner or improved unarmed strike with a ninja trick, so that's probably your best bet.
Remember that you can get Improved Unarmed Strike with the Unarmed Combat Training Ninja Trick instead of a feat if you want, and later can even get Monk progression -4 levels with the Unarmed Combat Mastery Master Trick.
So far the suggestions are:
Feat(Bludgeoner)
Feat(Improved Unarmed Strike)
Feat(Additional Traite(Blade of Mercy,*)
Trick(Improved Unarmed Strike)
Master Trick(Unarmed Combat Mastery)
Unarmed Strikes
Non-lethal attack with any weapon at a -4
I won't get a feat or trick for two levels. That is why I asked for a non feat method.
The non-lethal with a lethal weapon imposes a -4 on a 3/4 BAB class. Makes hitting quite difficult.
Unarmed strikes is my current answer, since Invisible Blade just came on-line, but what happens when being invisible is no longer good enough? Between bindsight, truesight, and other forms of defeating invisibility, I won't be in the sweet spot for long.
I need something I can use when I am seen by the enemy, that won't cost me an AoO or a -4 BAB. I am looking for items or perhaps spells, since cash is easier to get than a feat/trick/level.
/cevah
Unfortunately, whatever you get will not allow you to do non-lethal sneak attacks unless it changes the weapon from a lethal weapon to a non-lethal weapon (such as the Merciful weapon property) or provides a specific exemption (such as the feat Bludgeoner).
This now makes me wonder ... can you sneak attack with a weapon you're not proficient in? If so, just eat the penalty and grab a sap. From reading the ability, it looks like you'd still be allowed, and most circumstances where you're getting a sneak attack mean you're getting some modest bonus to hit that can help against that penalty.
Otherwise, either get sap proficiency or IUS. I'd be half tempted to suggest a monk dip but that's more just liking the class. (And isn't it sneaky to just punch someone for 1d6 damage?)
If you're willing to buy IUS or Bludgeoner...why not just get Martial Weapon Proficiency (sap)? ;P
|
Unarmed Attacks provoke AoO unless you spend a feat.
You can also spend a Ninja Trick to get IUS instead of a feat.
You can also spend a Ninja Trick to get IUS instead of a feat.
Unarmed Attacks provoke AoO unless you spend a feat.
People who are flat footed don't get AoO unless they have a feat.
Unarmed strikes is my current answer, since Invisible Blade just came on-line, but what happens when being invisible is no longer good enough? Between bindsight, truesight, and other forms of defeating invisibility, I won't be in the sweet spot for long.
I need something I can use when I am seen by the enemy, that won't cost me an AoO or a -4 BAB. I am looking for items or perhaps spells, since cash is easier to get than a feat/trick/level.
If this is just about capturing people rather than using Sap Master you could just invest in your heal skill or carry a wand of CLW with you. Deal lethal damage until they fall over, then patch them up so they don't die. Bring a scroll of breath of life just in case.
Alternatively, deal lethal damage until they've been touched up pretty good, then switch to your non-lethal attack. When non-lethal + lethal add up to their total hit points they'll fall unconscious without the risk of instant death by overkill.
Really though, unless you've done something tricky re: Invisible Blade you're at least at level 10. The ~8000 for a merciful backup weapon shouldn't be crippling. The enchantment also gives an extra 1d6 over something like the Bludgeoning feat.
|
Cracked stones never have resonate powers.
No - that's a PFS houserule. (Though one my home group also uses.)
Resonant Powers: When an ioun stone is set within the special indentation in a wayfinder, a secondary resonant power sometimes manifests to augment the ioun stone's powers, though this suppresses the wayfinder's normal magical abilities. This minor function is in addition to the stone's normal abilities, which continue to affect the wayfinder's bearer as though the stone were orbiting her head. Two resonating wayfinders wielded by the same character suppress one another's abilities, but both return to normal when one wayfinder is set aside. 75% of ioun stones grant resonant powers when placed in a wayfinder. 25% of cracked or flawed ioun stones have resonant powers (see Wayfinders and Ioun Stones) compared to the 75% chance for typical ioun stones; only 10% of scorched ioun stones have resonant powers.
Cracked/flawed stones have a 25% chance vs 75% chance with a normal one.
In PFS normal ones always work - cracked/flawed/scorched never do. It was likely changed due to standardizing character builds. ("Of course I rolled on the 10%! On all 6 of my scorched ioun stones!")
This thingy here is more than a bit on the expensive side, but will work. If you have any level in a martial weapons class, you could get the cracked version for 1500.
If I had a class with martial proficiency, I would already have several non-lethal weapons to choose from.
The 10,000 gp is more than the merciful weapon.
The 3,000 gp flawed version would work, but the Dex penalty means -1 AC and -1 BAB (finesse), and also needs a standard to activate.
Wait...
The resonant power thing will probably be good. Maximum 8500, minimum 700, depending on what your GM says about cracked stones.
Well, 8000 + 500 is more than 8300+ for a +1 merciful weapon, and that is for a 75% chance of success.
Some questions:
1) Is this for PFS?
2) Is this for a Half-Orc PC?
3) Is this a good-aligned PC?
1) No. 2) No. See profile. 3) Yes.
Unarmed strikes is my current answer, since Invisible Blade just came on-line, but what happens when being invisible is no longer good enough? Between bindsight, truesight, and other forms of defeating invisibility, I won't be in the sweet spot for long.
I need something I can use when I am seen by the enemy, that won't cost me an AoO or a -4 BAB. I am looking for items or perhaps spells, since cash is easier to get than a feat/trick/level.
If this is just about capturing people rather than using Sap Master you could just invest in your heal skill or carry a wand of CLW with you. Deal lethal damage until they fall over, then patch them up so they don't die. Bring a scroll of breath of life just in case.
Alternatively, deal lethal damage until they've been touched up pretty good, then switch to your non-lethal attack. When non-lethal + lethal add up to their total hit points they'll fall unconscious without the risk of instant death by overkill.
Really though, unless you've done something tricky re: Invisible Blade you're at least at level 10. The ~8000 for a merciful backup weapon shouldn't be crippling. The enchantment also gives an extra 1d6 over something like the Bludgeoning feat.
While heal skill or a wand of cure light do work for a few points, they don't work when an opponent goes from positive to negative beyond con. A breath of life scroll is 1125 gp. I would rather not need to spend that and leave the scroll for the party's needs.
While 8300+ for a backup weapon is not too much, it competes with getting a weapon upgrade, mithral chain to celestial upgrade, cloak of resistance upgrade, and some other stuff. Currently trying to see if I can swing a Lyre of Building (13,000 gp) for story/plot stuff.
Ninjas are killers, why in heck would you want a non-lethal attack?
When capture is required. A lot easier to question then kill instead of kill then question. Ninjas are not just killers. They get info, steal unique trinkets like government seals or heirlooms, and do other things.
/cevah
EDIT: added last paragraph.
Feats are great when they are not two levels away. :-)
/cevah
While heal skill or a wand of cure light do work for a few points, they don't work when an opponent goes from positive to negative beyond con. A breath of life scroll is 1125 gp. I would rather not need to spend that and leave the scroll for the party's needs
It's 1125 for an insurance policy. If all goes well they don't insta-die and you get to keep the scroll. If things go poorly then you pop the scroll to bail yourself out. 1125 is less than 4150. If you want no chance of this going wrong you're going to have to pony up for the merciful weapon and then sell it afterwards.
Alternatively, begin combat wielding a sap and poke yourself with a wand of True Strike. That way you'll hit despite eating the non-proficiency penalty and do a good chunk of non-lethal damage. Drop the sap and go to work. He'll fall unconscious when lethal + non-lethal is greater than HP, so you'll have more of a buffer against insta-death.
You're trying to do something that the system is designed to make moderately difficult. You didn't plan ahead and tee up a feat or trait or take a race that would make this easy (half orc -> city-raised for whips, half-elf -> ancestral arms for saps/whips). Any option you pick now is going to be a little awkward or cost you some cash. I don't really know what else to tell you.
The merciful weapon is 8300+, not 4150. Why would I sell it? I may need it later.
I know it will cost cash. What I want to know is the least amount I need to spend.
As to poor planning, how many characters have you made from first level that had a non-lethal option? I bet not many, unless you like to make non-lethal specialists. The standard murder-hobo plans on killing monsters, not capturing enemies. When the story goes political, capture becomes much more desirable.
/cevah
I know it will cost cash. What I want to know is the least amount I need to spend.
As to poor planning, how many characters have you made from first level that had a non-lethal option? I bet not many, unless you like to make non-lethal specialists. The standard murder-hobo plans on killing monsters, not capturing enemies. When the story goes political, capture becomes much more desirable.
/cevah
I'm not saying it's poor planning. I'm saying you're trying to do something unusual without any advance prep, so it shouldn't be shocking that it's costly. I don't think you're doing it any cheaper than 1125 GP.
All of my characters that I've played past first level have had a non-lethal option, but that's more of a result of a lot of casters and rogues in my background than anything else.
The merciful weapon is 8300+, not 4150. Why would I sell it? I may need it later.
I know it will cost cash. What I want to know is the least amount I need to spend.
As to poor planning, how many characters have you made from first level that had a non-lethal option? I bet not many, unless you like to make non-lethal specialists. The standard murder-hobo plans on killing monsters, not capturing enemies. When the story goes political, capture becomes much more desirable.
/cevah
I will admit I'm a bit surprised that ninjas don't get sap on their list. As far as thinking of a nonlethal option, I'll grant it rarely comes up. (Then again, it's come up often enough for me in my game. I've generally been the one who's been told to subdue the enemy too. In both cases, as I have sap proficiency but no actual sap, I've had to fall back on 'greataxe swing at -4' option.)
|
|
While heal skill or a wand of cure light do work for a few points, they don't work when an opponent goes from positive to negative beyond con. A breath of life scroll is 1125 gp. I would rather not need to spend that and leave the scroll for the party's needsIt's 1125 for an insurance policy. If all goes well they don't insta-die and you get to keep the scroll. If things go poorly then you pop the scroll to bail yourself out. 1125 is less than 4150. If you want no chance of this going wrong you're going to have to pony up for the merciful weapon and then sell it afterwards.
How do you ensure that you have the action economy needed to use the scroll in time? It's a touch spell, with a range of touch, from a scroll that needs to be in hand. If you don't have it in hand when you friend dies, you wont be able to cast the spell, reach your recently deceased ally, and touch them in the one round limit.
@blackbloodtroll: No retraining allowed. Not that I would particularly be interested. My classes & feats are what I want. I just want more. :-)
@chuffster: That 1125 cost can multiply quickly as you have to subdue more people. I am looking for something I can use repeatedly without additional cost.
@chuffster & Qaianna: I am surprised to see both of you saying you have non-lethal come up as often as you say.
Anyone else care to chime in of the frequency of non-lethal needs?
@Imbicatus: The First-Aid Gloves take care of the action economy. But at 4500 gp, are kind of expensive for two uses.
/cevah