So, you worship an evil god?

[venkelos2015]

As long as I've been doing this, this will sound like a noob question, but it rarely comes up in my D&D/PF games, so I haven't really had to deal with it, though it figures into a story I'm working on, so now I must tackle it.

There are good deities, and there are evil deities, and both must have people, for one reason or another, worship them, and have clerics who preach their words, and grow their power further. How important to said evil deity are their better clerics? Many works show them being short with even their most potent, devout worshipers, and for the smallest infractions. I get that arrogance and jerkiness are actually sort of a facet of their being; it is how they MUST act, in some ways, and they don't want to appear as if they are anything less than immensely above all others, but still.

Lets say, for example, that you are a drow, and that means, barring copyright, you serve a particular spider-themed deity. Now, she is, in some respects, a cruel, capricious deity, and she will gladly play her followers against one another, with potentially lethal results, just for the fun of watching it. I get what she gets out of it; a combination of entertainment (she is a total b***h, sometimes, and also a culling of her "weaker" servants, so only the best serve her, and it is how drow live, but what does the cleric in question get out of being a goddess's unwilling plaything? I'm a powerful priestess, and used to lording my power over the many slaves in my underground city, toying with the mind flayers, duergar, and other dark denizens of that fungus-filled place; I am NOT fond of anyone jerking me around, in turn.

The good deities have an advantage, in that they may let you live your own life, grant you power, and when you occasionally ask them to, they will come to your aid; it's a beneficial system, in both directions, but what about the evil deities? Am I just to let this goddess, whose power is in some way dependent on my faith, in addition to the many others who worship her, mess with me, like I'm no more important than dirt, even after I have devoted my life to her service, or what? How do I feel valued when I can be so flippantly discarded? Perhaps said goddess WOULDN'T play these games, but I can see this particular one doing so; she tests her faithful eventually, and those who fail become driders. Why would I tolerate this behavior, or am I imagining behavior where it wouldn't be?

Thoughts and ideas would be appreciated. Thanks much.

[CalethosVB]

When no other gods will touch you because you are god X's chosen people, it makes it hard to worship anyone else. Also, people like knowing they have a place in the grand scheme of things, with priests of a particular deity under the assumption that on Earth (or campaign setting), all matters of the Divine go through them first. Even being the servant of an evil deity, knowing you matter to them counts for something.

[Zhangar]

Pathfinder deities don't directly draw power form their followers.

They do indirectly draw power - worshipers -> souls -> petitioners -> new servitor outsiders.

I tend to picture Lolth's relationship with the drow to be very much like an abusive parent - she does her damnedest to make sure that she's all they have, which greatly limits straying. There's perks to being a cultural deity - your followers are indoctrinated from childhood, and may simply believe it's okay for you to treat them like garbage.

In Pathfinder, most of the evil deities work on a system of "pledge your fealty to me and carry out my interests, and I'll give you the power to do what you desire."

[Rub-Eta]

Why you would tolerate this? You don't tolerate it, you feel praised to be one of her servants. And it's obvious that anybody not being her servant are the weak and you must cull them.

[venkelos2015]

Don't know, a good deity might make you/trick you into feeling important, trusting you with important things, while the evil one will make you/trick you into feeling worthless, amusing themselves with your suffering, like you are anyone else in the world. Proving loyalty is one thing, but being screwed with, just so she can say "yes, I did that, and you went along. Tomorrow, you will, again" seems like a stupid religion to follow. Suppose I'm looking at it from the outside perspective; there are about a half-dozen real-life religions I could name, none of which I am a member of, that I could look at and say "they expect you to what?" or "what do you mean you can't ______?"; I see some of their strictures as odd, others as downright stupid, but don't have the indoctrinated aspect to say "it's not a question of right or wrong; it's just how it always has been, and always will be."

Part of it could also be the silly shoe-horning of the story in question, but I hesitate to blab about it here, as it is a bit ridiculous, and also, I might just keep typing. The scenario in question might not even normally develop the way it did; it had to, in this case, because of how I arrayed the characters, before I started writing.

All that said, the cleric in question does get a lot of perks from Lolth, including clerical powers, the gear that comes from being future ruler/high priestess of a city, the entirety of the system that is her House, and such. Thanks all for your ideas.

[Aniuś the Talewise]

Alright, I don't have much familiarity with the spider goddess (beyond reading about her in a compleat encounter), and I'm a follower of Norse heathenry (but follow Thor, who wears his heart on his sleeve and seldom manipulates people) so I can try to offer the perspective of someone who actually worships a folk god outside of western christianity.

A caveat that I don't really believe in evil gods. Gods that are stereotyped as 'evil' in Western pop culture, I've found, have a lot more to them than that, for example Loki who gets typed as 'Norse satan' even by a lot of heathens but this is really not an accurate understanding of Loki at all, and Kali in Hinduism, and even Satan who in some forms of Judaism is in fact an agent of god who tests the faith of God's worshippers.

Again, I really only actively worship Thor, who is very straightforward (but also passionate and trigger-happy), so I don't get the sorts of problems with Thor that people have with Odin or Loki.

Loki may fit the bill for 'chaotic neutral', as he is constantly getting into antics that annoy everyone else and doesn't have qualms about killing people (some sources say he killed Baldr, others say he didn't), but he is also a catalyst for change--if it weren't for Loki's son breaking free of his bonds, then the world would not end and it would thus not be reborn. And if it weren't for Loki's shenanigans, Mjǫlnir would never have been forged, and so on. But he is also an honored friend of the gods, blood brother to Odin and to Thor, and was by Thor's side when the latter married the giant Thrym to get his hammer back.

Worshippers report that he's a handful, causing problems for his devotees, such as bad dreams, dredging up bad memories from the past, etc. But people feel honored to be chosen by Loki and they feel that his shenanigans have an ultimate purpose of helping them get through their problems and realize their full potential.

I can't report much more as I don't actually worship Loki, but I hope this ramble helps in some weird, roundabout way.

[BigNorseWolf]

"No, I'm not dirt. I"M special. Its ok to treat everyone ELSE like dirt though, because they're not ME. I'm important and my goddess must know that...." - the thinking of evil.

[OilHorse]

Quote:

what does the cleric in question get out of being a goddess's unwilling plaything?

They are not unwilling.

They are very willing to carry out the will of their Patron. There is some reward for doing it, no matter how abstract it is, this is what Faith and Belief is all about

[Matt2VK]

Most "Evil" deities are ones that offer a 'short cut' to power with little 'risk' to the worshiper.

In Pathfinder terms (simplified) -

I can gain a 1000 exp by sacrificing this village of defenseless peasants.

vs

I can gain a 1000 exp by hunting down a monster raiding this village of defenseless peasants.

Both offer the same reward in exp but one has a significant higher risk to the worshipper of a deity.

[Bloodrealm]

venkelos2015 wrote:

Lets say, for example, that you are a drow, and that means, barring copyright, you serve a particular spider-themed deity. Now, she is, in some respects, a cruel, capricious deity, and she will gladly play her followers against one another, with potentially lethal results, just for the fun of watching it. I get what she gets out of it; a combination of entertainment (she is a total b***h, sometimes, and also a culling of her "weaker" servants, so only the best serve her, and it is how drow live, but what does the cleric in question get out of being a goddess's unwilling plaything? I'm a powerful priestess, and used to lording my power over the many slaves in my underground city, toying with the mind flayers, duergar, and other dark denizens of that fungus-filled place; I am NOT fond of anyone jerking me around, in turn.

The good deities have an advantage, in that they may let you live your own life, grant you power, and when you occasionally ask them to, they will come to your aid; it's a beneficial system, in both directions, but what about the evil deities? Am I just to let this goddess, whose power is in some way dependent on my faith, in addition to the many others who worship her, mess with me,...

Well, in your example's case, I believe that the highest priestesses are blessed and transformed into powerful Driders, and they're all scheming against each other before divine influence anyway. However, I think Golarion Drow worship a whole pantheon of Demon Lords, and being a Drider is somehow a bad thing done through fleshwarping. I don't know why being awesome is a punishment, but that's the way it is.

Also, for as many works there are that show evil deities being jerkasses, there are probably just as many showing them as seductive, deceptive, parental, inspiring, or just plain b@+$@+@ crazy (the last ones often having equally unhinged followers).

[Rylar]

Quote:

I'm a powerful priestess, and used to lording my power over the many slaves in my underground city, toying with the mind flayers, duergar, and other dark denizens of that fungus-filled place; I am NOT fond of anyone jerking me around, in turn.

No one is jerking an evil priestess around anymore then a "good" god is jerking around their followers sending them on quests. A priestess of an evil spider god is, at least in their mind, important to said god. The evil quest that she is being sent on is divine and a blessing in and of itself. Also if the quest/task was important to the god in question then they would probably throw some divine intervention to help the priestess.

[BigNorseWolf]

Matt2VK wrote:

Most "Evil" deities are ones that offer a 'short cut' to power with little 'risk' to the worshiper.

In Pathfinder terms (simplified) -

I can gain a 1000 exp by sacrificing this village of defenseless peasants.

vs

I can gain a 1000 exp by hunting down a monster raiding this village of defenseless peasants.

Both offer the same reward in exp but one has a significant higher risk to the worshipper of a deity.

Or 1500 xp by attacking the villiage WITH the monster and then turning on it when he's been injured by the torch and pitchfork defense league.

[Myrryr]

There's also the point in fact that some evil gods, at least in PF's pantheon, very much are cordial, courteous and quite rewarding of their successful followers. Asmodeus and other devils will even happily let their dead diabolists back to life and out of Hell if they're skilled enough.

Socothbenoth and Nocticula, both demon lords, are quite friendly to worshippers... very very friendly. Haagenti is well known to give out secrets and be one of the best teachers there is and is most adamant about experimenting on non-followers because followers are adding information to his lab. He doesn't randomly torture things that are useful, that's for OTHER poor saps.

Charon is noted to gleefully hand out the secrets to lichdom to aspiring spellcasters, secrets that are very hard to come by and afterwards, he doesn't even care if you live forever, despite being a daemon who literally subsists on eating souls like yours. Admittedly he does it because he knows you're going to kill people and thus increase souls merely by being a lich.

Despite the 'reasonable' evil ones though, yeah there's quite a few that just make no sense for any worshipper to ever go to. Rovagug being the obvious example, but at least they call out his worshippers as almost all being total nutcases or actual nihilists.
But actual evil deities and demigods are rarely called out as 'b*tchslapping' their own loyal followers, at least in Golarion. Even ones like Deskari treat their followers well because they need and use them, just look at Areelu Vorlesh.

All of that followed by the caveat of "Don't fail me," obviously, which even good ones can be a bit harsh on punishment for screwing up.

[Bob Evil]

I'd say that it's also worth pointing out that being a priest of a good deity isn't a free ride, especially from an evil individual's perspective.

Good deities often expect their priests to be self-sacrificing, whether it's tithing cash, uprooting your life for a crusade, or simply dying for a cause. The non-chaotic ones tend to espouse honesty, which can leave an adventurer's hands tied more often than not, and the lawful ones go even further by demanding submission to laws that the worshiper may disagree with. And it's not enough to mind your own affairs, you're expected to go out and do good on your god's behalf, often for a bunch of people who won't appreciate it, and that's if they're not actively trying to kill you for it; any devout Desnan in Nidal or Cheliax is gonna have a very bad time if they're really serious about their faith.

Furthermore, on some level it means always being on guard against your baser instincts, and not taking the easy way out just because it's expedient. Yeah, it would be easier to just kill those bandits you captured and be rid of them, but your god espouses forgiveness, so it's either jail or attempted conversion, which could end with a dagger in your ribs. Yeah, you need that artifact that noble family has kept in it's possession for generations, and you have enough power to just knock down a wall and take it, but that would be wrong, so I guess you're running that errand for the count in exchange. Yeah, you could just let the villagers in the kingdom you're passing through deal with those goblin raiders themselves, but you'd be remiss if you didn't at least try to help, so grab your sword and get to it, I hope you didn't have anyplace else that you needed to be.

Help others. Serve others. Give up for others. Others, others, others.

Being good is ultimately about caring about the well-being of others more that you care about your own well-being. It's supposed to be its own reward, but all people are simply not wired that way. That kind of life can chafe very easily if you're not all-in.

For some people, evil deities offer the freedom and power to look out for number one. Yeah, your goddess may be a total b***h, but at least she recognizes that your own wants and needs are worth addressing as long as they don't conflict with hers. Better to be a king in hell than a slave in heaven, as the saying goes.

[venkelos2015]

Points taken, and much appreciated. ;)

In the story example, Vedra Tae'Vareth (the drow) is a young elf, and a bit conflicted, as she has made a new "friend" of a slave who is, while no saint, also no monster, and she is a young drow, still, so she isn't quite the callous demon her mother might be, or other non-Drizzts; this leaves that hint of worry, both in Matron Mother Tae'Vareth, and the Spider Queen, that her new, close friend might try to lead her away from her destiny, and the young priestess, unaccustomed to "friends", might waver, wanting to keep this new commodity. Elistraee is also sort of involved. After some particularly potent deeds on behalf, Lolth "tests" her up and coming servant with a small test on par with her potential future as a Matron Mother, and orders her to send him away; not kill him, but send him off, and accept that he's gone. She does, but then she questions why she did. She's always served her goddess, even taken a duergar city, in her name, and her "reward" is to be forced to lose something she values, to "put her master's mind at ease." Being a bit selfish, and accustomed to getting her own way, Vedra then questions what all her efforts have been for, if her goddess will only reward them with suffering. MM Tae'Vareth is the most Vulcan drow ever, and so not the most helping; she saw the point in it.

Again, it's at least as much a case of my potentially terrible, corny writing, as anything else, but that's where it is. In the end, I sort of plan to have the Spider Queen "relent"; Vedra has never had to show her personal fortitude before, and while disobedience is frowned upon, someone who might stand up to their own wicked goddess can probably be counted on to hold to the prescribed course, no matter what else someone there says, or does.

On a side not, minusing one weird source, drider-state has NEVER been a reward; it is always the punishment, being made a mockery of both Drow and spider, but not a perfect either one. And now, it is time for bed, as work will soon be upon me. Thanks again, everyone, for your thoughts and opinions, they were a great help.