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I am looking for a definitive answer since there seems to be some confusion in the matter. Does Blindsight overcome mirror image?
In my mind it does but it does not say it specifically in the rules. It does say it defeats blur and displacement, which are both glamer effects yet mirror image is a figment. Below is the description of a figment from the core and I put a dictionary definition as well.
Core rulebook:
Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the figment produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like (or copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it).
Dictionary definition:
figment - a thing that someone believes to be real but that exists only in their imagination.
So with both those in mind, my thinking is this. If a figment has substance and is really there, then blindsight could be fooled. Meaning, it would have the same shape and density as the caster. I am taking my understanding of ultrasound machines and sonar into account here. If it is just a 3D hologram, which smells, sounds, and looks like the caster than blindsight can see the caster.
I can easily see a shadow illusion effect fooling blindsight but not a figment. Please enlighten me on your reasons other than..."I love casters and I want a low level spell which stops everything but true seeing...it's magic after all!!." I say this lightheartedly, because it seems to be the only defense I have heard.
By RAW, mirror image and blindsight don't affect eachother at all. Blindsight's entry reads:
"This makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature".
Mirror image is neither invisiblity nor is it concealment.
One could argue thematically that blindsight allows you to detect the real one, but there is now RAW to support that. In addition, there's even a thematic counterargument to the above argument: "These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly." So a blindsight guy relying on hearing is easily fooled by the images.
But, still, you're looking for a definitive answer? The definitive and RAW answer is that blindsight does not trump mirror image.
Yeah, it pretty much comes down to the fact that whatever Blindsight does still depends on some kind of senses, and Mirror Image is a figment that fools senses. Both Displacement and Blur specifically state that they are visual effects, but Mirror Image itself suggests that it is more than that, despite the name.
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I want to see a few more replies but also want to thank you for your replies.
For Johnny_Devo - (your fourth line)and Badbird - your comments would suggest that all casters with mirror image have experienced blindsight and interpret blindsight just as the creature with blindsight does. I refer to the last line of a figment illusion: "Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like (or copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it)."
Lastly, if we allow mirror image to trump blindsight this makes mirror image a powerful spell that all caster, who are allowed to get it, should. This also means that any melee class should go two weapon fighting to get around it because you are going to see it on any caster who has it. Blind fight could be useful, assuming the melee class recognizes the spell effect and closes his/her eyes. Plus, AOE spells are incoming for the mirror imaged caster (nuke the square). And on a personal note, I will stop carrying a forth level spell (echolocation)to try and get around a second level spell for something more offensive/useful.
Please continue the discussion, I guess I just dont like a single spell which pigeonholes tactics for other classes but so be it.
Pigeonhole definition: (a neat category which usually fails to reflect actual complexities)
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As I've said, if you really want to throw RAW out the window and begin a discussion about whether blindsight trumps mirror image, you can do that.
However, the way I see it, blindsight specifically calls out /how/ a creature with blindsight can "see".
Such senses may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation.
2 of the four are specifically arguable that the blindsight will still detect the mirror images, since the mirror images specifically say "mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly." The other two could possibly be argued that they don't detect the images, but that's going into territory that splits the same thing up into situational specifics, and that's simply not very good to do in a rules system.
The final caveat is that mirror image states "An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply)."
This suggests that you have to be able to detect the images to be fooled. Blindsight gives a list of senses which suggest that the character would be able to detect the images.
So even with ignoring the open-and-shut RAW, most things point to blindsight not trumping mirror image, in my opinion.
But, if you are really determined to remove the "pigeonhole" aspect which you so condescendingly defined for us, you could houserule every blindsight according to the type of blindsight that they have. As an example, "vibration" and "hearing" blindsight would be fooled by mirror image, but "scent" and "echolocation" would not.
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I think closing your eyes to make yourself blind should still work for defeating the spell, but I can see the other side of it too.
It's worth noting that Mirror Image calls out that an attacker must be able to see (but not hear) the figments to be fooled, and that the spell has no effect on a blind attacker despite a blind character presumably still has a sense of hearing.
So the question becomes if Blindsight, which are "a non-visual sense", can emulate blindness. Some common forms of Blindsight are sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. Out of those only Keen Hearing seem likely to be fooled by Mirror Image.
I can say that in the past I had an investigator with an Echolocation extract active who fought a character with Mirror Image. The investigator closed his eyes, relied on Blindsight to avoid the penalties for not being able to see his target and sidestepped the images entirely.
Mirror Image specifically states that the creature has to see the images to be affected.
Closing your eyes has long been a way to bypass Mirror Image. Normally this means you suffer 50% miss chance but if you have Blindsight you don't.
Mirror Image specifically states that the creature has to see the images to be affected.
Closing your eyes has long been a way to bypass Mirror Image. Normally this means you suffer 50% miss chance but if you have Blindsight you don't.
It is rather stupid that keeping your eyes open somehow prevents you from distinguishing between images using non-visual senses, so it is probably a sane house rule to just make Blindsight outright bypass it.
Mirror Image specifically states that the creature has to see the images to be affected.
Closing your eyes has long been a way to bypass Mirror Image. Normally this means you suffer 50% miss chance but if you have Blindsight you don't.
But maybe a creature with Blindsight can still see the images with his eyes closed?
Why would he Matthew? Blindsight is a non-visual sense.
Blindsight and Blindsense
Some creatures possess blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such senses may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.
A creature with Blindsight cannot see the images if his eyes are closed.
Yeah, it pretty much comes down to the fact that whatever Blindsight does still depends on some kind of senses, and Mirror Image is a figment that fools senses. Both Displacement and Blur specifically state that they are visual effects, but Mirror Image itself suggests that it is more than that, despite the name.
Yet the spell Mirror Image itself says that relies only on sight.
An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).
Blindsight allows the character to detect shapes on the space without actually using sight, so it pass through the illusion.
Mirror Image specifically states that the creature has to see the images to be affected.
Closing your eyes has long been a way to bypass Mirror Image. Normally this means you suffer 50% miss chance but if you have Blindsight you don't.
Was this ruled to be a move action in itself? Or not specified at all?
Not specified. The actual action(s) required is up to the GM but closing your eyes is supported by the gaze attack rules.
Wearing a Blindfold: The foe cannot see the creature at all (also possible to achieve by turning one’s back on the creature or shutting one’s eyes). The creature with the gaze attack gains total concealment against the opponent.
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Echolocation = the location of objects by reflected sound, in particular that used by animals such as dolphins and bats.
Just clarifying since I saw some contradiction within a statement of someone using echolocation to bypass mirror image while saying mirror image may defeat acute sound.
Also, Johnny_Devo, I wasn't trying to be condescending. I was hoping for casters with more imagination. Instead of every caster in the 20+ years of playing D&D using mirror image as the go to defense spell. I was envisioning someone with a bat familiar wanting to use touch spells vs the mirror imaged caster or a druid beast shaping to something other than the strongest thing they can, or a creative use of alter self/polymorph. It opens up so many things yet seeing mirror image every time is like eating the same soup day in and out (ok - that's a little condescending). Therefore, casters would want to defend themselves in different ways and may take the stealth skill or a sorcerer with blur or blink.
Again, I thank you all for your contribution(s) to this thread and continue on...please. I am very interested in everyone's opinion.
P.S. I know I would house rule it. Mainly because I would want to see players adapt to the change and often players surprise me with their imaginations but it is not always my game.
So the more i look at it, the more i feel the entire thing hinges on the condition that the attacker be able to see. Basically, does blindsight count as being able to see?
If it does not, mirror image does not effect it.
If "it depends", we need some definition of what forms of blindsight it defeats. We also need to know if this depends on the clause where the caster must have experienced a sense to fool it.
If it does, like i think it does (blindsight, as it were), then mirror image does defeat.
Also, i apologize if i was a bit too accusing of being condescending. It just almost seemed to me that you were assuming we didnt know what pigeonholed meant.
blindsight
what now, HUH?
Johnny_Devo, see (in this context) is using eyesight.
I already quoted the section where it states that blindsight is non-visual. There are no 'different forms' of Blindsight, they are all just blindsight. Blindsight is, by rule, non-visual.
Summary:
Mirror Image requires you to be able to see. See = visual sight relying on eyes.
Blindsight does not use visual sight. It completely bypasses any effect (such as invisibility or Mirror Image) that relies upon visual sight.
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no worries, Johnny_Devo. When I looked up pigeonhole, I didn't know there are several definitions. I was placing the one I was using to limit confusion or having someone chose one I wasn't intending. I have no intent on insulting the very folks I am asking for help. I may disagree from time to time but I am desiring a healthy focused discussion. This will always be my intent.
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This is kind of interesting topic. It didn't occur to me that Blindsight might bypass Mirror Image, but it's still questionable if the creature is actually looking at the person or not if it has a regular sight also. It would probably make most sense to simply assume that the condition is treated as if not looking at the person otherwise it becomes hard to distinguish certain creatures with the same ability.
Malag, it really doesn't matter. The creature can close it's eyes and fight just as effectively (to the limit of it's Blindsight range).
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Yet the spell Mirror Image itself says that relies only on sight.
An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).Blindsight allows the character to detect shapes on the space without actually using sight, so it pass through the illusion.
The text of Mirror Image is self-contradicting though, in that it states that it mimics more than just vision - including explicitly calling out sound, which Blindsense generally references in one way or another. It only works without contradicting itself if 'images' is a shorthand way of saying 'sensory figments', and 'see the images' is a casual way of saying 'perceive the figments'. Looking at it that way would explain the fact that Blindsense is specifically called out as defeating Displacement and Blur, but not Mirror Image.
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Malag, it really doesn't matter. The creature can close it's eyes and fight just as effectively (to the limit of it's Blindsight range).
Completely true, but what bothers me is if it would do it based on it's intelligence. If it's regular animal type, it might attempt to use his normal visual senses for the 1st round and blindsight in 2nd round after it realizes there is something off. It becomes a bit hard to emulate this ability properly, but this is just me talking from philosophical point of view :)
Subject B casts Echolocation.
Subject B is unable to perceive the figments created by Mirror Image, which leads to be unaffected by Mirror Image.
That's an interesting question actually... echolocation is literally the sound equivalent of shining a light on something to see it. If Mirror Image says that it mimics sound, does it mimic the sound of echolocation?
BadBird...no
Guys, this is really much much simpler than everyone is making it out to be.
1) Mirror Image specifically states that creatures must be able to SEE the images.
What does that mean? It means you must be using visual (such as eyeballs) means to see.
2) Does Mirror Image's "mimics sound" bit have any bearing on anything?
No. It is completely irrelevant because Mirror Image specifically gave the means to bypass the spell, dont use your eyes.
3) Blindsight is a non-visual means to perceive the world around you.
Thus, Blindsight bypasses Mirror Image as per Mirror Image's clause.
Summary: Close your eyes, use Blindsight and you won't be affected by Mirror Image.
Really, this is super easy guys, you are digging WAY past the rules.
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I was hoping for casters with more imagination. Instead of every caster in the 20+ years of playing D&D using mirror image as the go to defense spell. I was envisioning someone with a bat familiar wanting to use touch spells vs the mirror imaged caster or a druid beast shaping to something other than the strongest thing they can, or a creative use of alter self/polymorph. It opens up so many things yet seeing mirror image every time is like eating the same soup day in and out (ok - that's a little condescending). Therefore, casters would want to defend themselves in different ways and may take the stealth skill or a sorcerer with blur or blink.
There are already ways to beat mirror image - Blind-fight is a pretty common martial pick primarily to deal with mirror image and other such defense spells. Works great with grappling the caster as there's no miss chance then.
Heck - if they ever get up to Greater Blind-fight, they only have a 4% miss chance with their eyes closed.
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Mirror Image specifically states that the creature has to see the images to be affected.
Closing your eyes has long been a way to bypass Mirror Image. Normally this means you suffer 50% miss chance but if you have Blindsight you don't.
Mirror image doesn't actually say that at all.
This spell creates a number of illusory doubles of you that inhabit your square. These doubles make it difficult for enemies to precisely locate and attack you.
When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created. These images remain in your space and move with you, mimicking your movements, sounds, and actions exactly. Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead. If the attack is a hit, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. If it is a figment, the figment is destroyed. If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells that require a touch attack are harmlessly discharged if used to destroy a figment.
An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).
I marked the bit that's important for this discussion.
Closing your eyes doesn't INHERENTLY beat mirror image. Being blind does.
So - the question is - does a creature with 'blindsight' qualify as actually being blind.
I think no. (Especially considering it specifically mentions them then having a miss chance - which a creature with blindsight doesn't have.)
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I marked the bit that's important for this discussion.
Closing your eyes doesn't INHERENTLY beat mirror image. Being blind does.
So - the question is - does a creature with 'blindsight' qualify as actually being blind.
I think no. (Especially considering it specifically mentions them then having a miss chance - which a creature with blindsight doesn't have.)
Can you clarify your point? I can't tell if you're saying whether or not closing your eyes gives you the blind condition or if you're trying to make some other point.
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Can you clarify your point? I can't tell if you're saying whether or not closing your eyes gives you the blind condition or if you're trying to make some other point.I marked the bit that's important for this discussion.
Closing your eyes doesn't INHERENTLY beat mirror image. Being blind does.
So - the question is - does a creature with 'blindsight' qualify as actually being blind.
I think no. (Especially considering it specifically mentions them then having a miss chance - which a creature with blindsight doesn't have.)
I'm saying that that's the question to be answered. Does closing your eyes make you blind if you have blindsight?
I don't think that closing your eyes inherently makes you blind - but that's my opinion and not RAW.
I did come by that conclusion since those with blindsight don't have any of the negatives associated with blindness - but that's implication, not RAW.
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I'm not saying my thoughts one way or the other, just posing a question. I'm assuming you agree that a creature with no eyes is blind, and that barring any other shenanigans would not be affected by the Mirror Images.
Would that same creature be affected by the Mirror Images if he gained Blindsight? (I'm thinking that's the same question you posed but restated)
Keep in mind that blindsight specifically says "Some creatures possess blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a non-visual sense (or a combination senses) to operate effectively without vision" which seems to be directly related to the part you bolded from Mirror Image.
Keep in mind that blindsight specifically says "Some creatures possess blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a non-visual sense (or a combination senses) to operate effectively without vision" which seems to be directly related to the part you bolded from Mirror Image.
Where did you get that quote? Leaving that aside, I think that rather long-winded phrasing is more notable for what it doesn't say than for anything it does. Notice that is says you can "operate effectively," but it doesn't say that you can "see." As a matter of fact, it's fairly clear that you can't "see" : "Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see."
My understanding and reading, therefore, is that you are blind, but take none (few) of the penalties for being blind. (Some of the penalties you would take would include the inability to distinguish colors, the inability to see stars at night [and hence navigate by them].)
The actual text of "blindsight" supports this further:
"Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature."
... you can maneuver and fight, but not "see."
BadBird...no
Really, this is super easy guys, you are digging WAY past the rules.
If simply 'going by the rules', Blindsight specifically calls out Blur and Displacement as negated, but not Mirror Image. I thought digging past the rules was kind of the point of this exercise.
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I'm not saying my thoughts one way or the other, just posing a question. I'm assuming you agree that a creature with no eyes is blind, and that barring any other shenanigans would not be affected by the Mirror Images.
Would that same creature be affected by the Mirror Images if he gained Blindsight? (I'm thinking that's the same question you posed but restated)
In my opinion - yes.
Part of the problem is - in a world with perfect blindsight - is not being able to see the same as being 'blind' in game terms?
I don't think so.
The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
Note - it says that to be blinded 'the creature cannot see'. That doesn't actually make it so that the inverse is inherently true. (The whole dog =/= poodle thing.)
The bolded is not true of creatures with blindsight. Therefore one could argue that they aren't 'blind'.
The RAW isn't definitive either way. *shrug*
Charon's Little Helper, the rules already provide for effectively blinding yourself by closing your eyes (it's in the Gaze rules).
The RAW is quite definitive.
If you cannot see the images you are not affected by them. Blindsight is a means of perceiving the world without using sight. Thus, you cannot perceive the images using Blindsight.
This is all in the rules and quoted multiple times.
Mirror Image could use a good counter. It is filthy powerful, especially compared to other spells. No reason ever that a martial could beat another martial with access to this spell. What other spell does that so strongly?
I think closing your eyes should use invisibility rules and give you blindness. You attack the square and probably flatfooted too.
Errant Mercenary, being blind does not make you flatfooted.
I don't think that closing your eyes inherently makes you blind - but that's my opinion and not RAW.
First up, I'll I'm not really feeling like taking the time for the search, but I'm positive this very topic has had developer clarification before. If you can't see, you're blind. Closing your eyes counts as not seeing. Closing your eyes induces the blind condition, just like having your head wrapped in a burlap bag would.
That said, there's rules-legal and there's sensible. Since everything in initiative is supposed to be happening at once, I probably wouldn't let me players close their eyes at the start of a turn to improve their odds against mirror image then open them again at the end of their turn so they could still threaten and whatnot. Sorry, while you're voluntarily blind, other folks get to treat you that way. So I'd make it a once-per-round decision, much like averting your gaze and gaze attacks.
Creatures that "see" through echolocation cannot see holograms. Who could have thought?
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Charon's Little Helper, the rules already provide for effectively blinding yourself by closing your eyes (it's in the Gaze rules).
No. It isn't. You're reading things there which aren't.
Wearing a Blindfold: The foe cannot see the creature at all (also possible to achieve by turning one's back on the creature or shutting one's eyes). The creature with the gaze attack gains total concealment against the opponent.
Nowhere does it say that wearing a blindfold always makes you 'blind' as in the condition. In most cases it would, but in my reading, not if they have blindsight.
Not that blindsight would be affected by a gaze attack. But nowhere in the gaze rules does it say that wearing a blindfold equates to being 'blind'.
An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled.
Guess what happens when I'm not looking
Errant Mercenary, being blind does not make you flatfooted.
Ah good to know, will check what penalties there are for it.
Charon's Little Helper, let me show you where it says that:
Wearing a Blindfold: The foe cannot see the creature at all (also possible to achieve by turning one’s back on the creature or shutting one’s eyes). The creature with the gaze attack gains total concealment against the opponent.
So what does that say, it says that if you shut your eyes you cannot see. Seems pretty clear.
Next:
Blinded: The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a 4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
So what does that say, it says that Blinded creatures cannot see. Ergo: if you cannot see you are blind.
Now, if you are NOT blind because you are shutting your eyes then putting on a blindfold or closing your eyes does not come with all the penalties that most people believe that it comes with. Ie: loss of dexterity bonus etc. Is that your assertion?
Frankly, I am not reading too much into this, you are failing to add up basic facts. How can you see something that you cannot see because it has Total Concealment?
Please try to use some logic here.
Edit: Heck, I don't even have to prove that you have to be blind, just that you cannot see.
An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).
I have quite clearly demonstrated that if you close your eyes you cannot see.
Malag, being attacked by an invisible creature does not make you flat-footed.
It is a common misconception that loss of dexterity = flat-footed. However, this is not supported by the rules.
Flat-footed => loss of dexterity bonuses.
Being attacked by an invisibile creature => loss of dexterity bonuses (and other stuff).
Being blind => loss of dexterity bonuses (and other stuff).
Many ways to lose your dexterity bonuses, but losing your dexterity bonuses does not necessarily mean you are flat-footed.