And @Tangent - I have discovered the character sheet part for 2E in Roll20 and it looks like it will make things a lot easier. It also means I can more easily link in the turn tracker which I haven't usedFor Turn Tracker, open the turn tracker, then click on the character icon on screen, then command-u (or I guess that's a left click when not using a mac). You'll need to do that for each time you log in to the game--it looks like it continues for each new page you're in or each new time you log in to the game, but that's only for you, the players don't see that.
I will look into this although I added sheets for all my enemies for the PFS quest I just did I am not sure I will do that every time! There seems like there should be a way of importing monsters but I guess that is for if you have bought one of the adventure packs - which is going to be useless in most cases
One interesting thing about the Turn Tracker is that if a character has their character icon clicked and then clicks on Initiative on their character sheet, their initiative will auto-populate into the Turn Tracker. :)Does this always work? As it didn’t seem to last night. I needed to click on add turn and then the players click initiative on their sheet. But it does auto populate
It will be a lifesaver as I always get confused on my initiative
Only downside is it will have to show hidden enemies unless I keep them off tracker until they appear and then manually edit their initiative when I enter them. But that is only a small thing
The character sheets allowed me to click on players sheets and whisper rolls to myself for secret checks
Probably doesn’t save time as I need to cycle through 4 rather than roll dice and add. But it means I don’t need to ask for the relevant skill and don’t need to do the addition (even if it is simple!).
The problem is you need the icon selected before you go to the character sheet and click Initiative. If someone forgets to do that? It doesn't get added to the Turn Tracker. It's an annoying flaw in the system.
If you right-click on the icon, you get a list of opens including "Add Turn" at the very top of that list. This lets you import that character into the Turn Tracker though then you also need either add in their initiative, or drag the icon to the proper place in the tracker (and then not sort according to number).
The huge benefit to the Turn Tracker is it lets players see how long before their turn. So if you need to use the bathroom you can see how long it'll likely be until your turn. Likewise it can encourage people to start getting ready for their next turn.
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It's going to take a while (as my group isn't even halfway through Book 2 so far), but I'm going to switch out the map for the Hags in Ravounel Forest with Iconic Maps' "The Hag Tree" map. It's a fantastic map and given the hags' theme, having them in a flooded part of the forest living in a huge tree just seems right somehow. :)
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It's going to take a while (as my group isn't even halfway through Book 2 so far), but I'm going to switch out the map for the Hags in Ravounel Forest with Iconic Maps' "The Hag Tree" map. It's a fantastic map and given the hags' theme, having them in a flooded part of the forest living in a huge tree just seems right somehow. :)
Brilliant. Absolutely Brilliant.
Thanks for that tip!
I'm really intrigued by this. Would it work on Roll20?
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It should. Though the map sizes can be fairly large. One thing I did with the larger maps was select a smaller size map and then halve the pixels for each square. The largest map is 20x30 squares (and you can always use the maps that don't have grids). Even if you assume those squares are 10 feet each, that's still doable with Roll20. There's eight maps in all. The files I have are jpgs, which can easily be loaded into Roll20.
It did. The creator also gave me reduced quality versions so that they would upload to Roll20 easier. They're gonna be brilliant. Best $6 I've spent on a map.
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By the way, running Shadowsquare Cathedral as a dungeon crawl in the late stages of book 4 or in book 5 is a good one-nighter. Really flavorful to repurpose the Cathedral of Exquisite Agony from Inner Sea Temples for these purposes. My table just did a crawl through it after the revolution, as they grew to hate the Nidal team during books 3+4. Really good break between RP-heavy sessions around the constitutional stuff of creating a new nation.
Also, I got to say, "Diplomatic Immunity! Take me to my embassy!" as one of the Nidalese surrendered during the raid.
Well, my players staged a mock execution of Carliss Mayhart to lure out the real criminal tonight. Hilarity ensued...
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So my group just went into hell to meet the Barrister Fellow.
Through deception and guile, they achieved the lofty goal of waiting in a guest chamber.
I decided to ask them to describe the half hour they wait, and they did to satisfying detail. I then asked them to describe their next half hour. They did. And so on... for several hours.
They made it 3 hours before their waiting turned into “Screw this! Let’s teleport outta the room and kill everything!”
Little do they know, they only had 9 hours left before Odexidie finished up his paperwork. XD
Lesson: There’s more than one way to get tortured in hell.
At this level, it's about a fear of total party kill or a death where they can't bring them back. They have plenty of access to raise dead through the campaign.
Has anyone had the professor successfully Death Attack a PC?
I have just noticed he has hide in plain sight which gives him an opportunity even if they have see invisibility or the lanternIt seems like it could be a tough pill to swallow but a perfectly legitimate tactic if they fail the perception and then the fortitude save (unlikely in my group’s case)
Has it happened and if so how did it go down?
One of the Death attacks would be True Death and potentially turn them into dust though...
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I am struggling with this high level stuff though. My players seem to be doing crazy things but I don't know if this is just that I don't have a frame of reference
I have just done the first half of the Arcadian Deep.
One player has a base 39 AC due to the Manta Ray cloak. No buff spells.Low AC seems to be 34 so I am generally struggling.
The Kineticist just did 195 points of damage with 2 attacks (out of a possible 3). Albeit using up a lot of burn. But that still seems crazy to me and largely invalidates the fights.
I don't see the Drowning Devil doing anything. Save DCs are too low. The only thing going for it is Mirror Image will slow them down (and slow the game down)
Are all games at this level like this? Or has something gone a bit weird?
I am on record about wanting to stop this one at the end of book 4 but my players talked me into continuing.
You should talk with your players, most likely. Are they having fun? Are you having fun? Some people love playing Pathfinder on "easy mode". It does speed up gameplay, and you could even cut extraneous encounters.
If you and they want to play with at least some modicum of challenge, you'll need to either lower the PCs' strength (generally, I'd give them less XP and treasure by cutting encounters, not take existing stuff away) or increase the difficulty if the encounters (preferably by increasing CR without giving them even more XP).
You can accomplish this also by combining fights, adding nasty environmental effects, pre-buff, give the enemy a better working knowledge of the party, etc.
Some players balk at this, and it's a lot of work for you as GM.
But these are some options.
Does the name Ravounel have any name/word origin connection to "Raven"?
I've looked around and have not seen any discussion of this. Is it just an odd coincidence?
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Does the name Ravounel have any name/word origin connection to "Raven"?
I've looked around and have not seen any discussion of this. Is it just an odd coincidence?
It's an odd coincidence. "Ravounel" as a name is far older than the Silver Ravens as a group, going back at least to the area's seizure by Taldor from the hobgoblins who were in power previously.
Right, right, Ravounel would not have come from Silver Ravens, but I'm wondering if Silver Ravens was chosen because of "Ravounel".
Like, hey, we're in Texas and we need a team name, how about...um...the Silver Texans!
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Right, right, Ravounel would not have come from Silver Ravens, but I'm wondering if Silver Ravens was chosen because of "Ravounel".
Like, hey, we're in Texas and we need a team name, how about...um...the Silver Texans!
Oh, we're told that the "Silver Raven" name comes from the figurine of wondrous power.
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My current interpretation is that a surface reading (ie. without deciphering the hidden condition) would only reveal that "Kintargo and all of Ravounel agree to be defended by House Thrune and the Church of Asmodeus", and that "a legally appointed lord-mayor may grant permission to House Thrune and its allies (including the Church of Asmodeus, and thus, by extension, Hell itself) permission to enter the region to conduct military operations"; ie. hiding the information about the Board of Governors and the consequences of military action without permission.
I think this is reasonable. Remember, neither the introductory text and the text of the contract's statblock is meant to be revealed to the players, they are for GM eyes only. So the introductory text is a bit looser with its description than it might be if it was player-facing.
We finished Kintargo Contract with an excellent final battle against Mangvhune. Yay!
Then they fell for the trapped teleporter and several characters have gone to Shax's House of Pain. Ugh. Now what?
I feel a rescue/escape doing justice to Murder House would be a campaign unto itself. I don't think I want to give them an easy escape, but I don't want to say, welp, those characters are dead; roll up new characters for book 6 because you missed a willpower save. One of the players whose character missed his save wasn't even there to be in on the decision.
Did anyone else run into this? Or what would you have done if your group had?
All NPC allies is a very long list. Those near their levels, not so much. Jackdaw and Shensen? They are on pretty good terms with Manticce Kaleekii in Vyre. I could see her coming up with something, but at what price?
PCs in Kintargo: diva, alchemist, and inquisitor.
In Charnelhome for sure: oracle and a weak npc
Awaiting character's saving throw: ranger.
Another factor is that I don't want a long Abyss adventure to undercut the last chapter of book 6's trip to hell.
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All NPC allies is a very long list. Those near their levels, not so much. Jackdaw and Shensen? They are on pretty good terms with Manticce Kaleekii in Vyre. I could see her coming up with something, but at what price?
PCs in Kintargo: diva, alchemist, and inquisitor.
In Charnelhome for sure: oracle and a weak npc
Awaiting character's saving throw: ranger.
Another factor is that I don't want a long Abyss adventure to undercut the last chapter of book 6's trip to hell.
Have they done the Book 5 trip to Hell yet? "Let me summon your friends here in exchange for definitely no hidden consequences" might make a good roleplay opportunity.
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Possible text of the Kintargo Contract, according to the terms laid out in Groves, Parthfinder Adventure Path #101: The Kintargo Contract, at *7 (2015), styled after Infernal Contract #9485784.3728:7845,9888495 reproduced in full at Jacobs, et al., Pathfinder Adventure Path: Curse of the Crimson Throne, Anniversary Edition, at *376 (2016):
This Kintargo Contract is a lawful Agreement between ASMODEUS, King of Hell, by and through ODEXIDIE, Vice Barrister of Terrestrial Prospects, and ABROGAIL THRUNE, Infernal Magestrix of the Mortal Realm of Cheliax (hereinafter the “High Contracting Parties”).
The High Contracting Parties each, jointly and severally, recognize the ancient oaths and pledges of the citizens each of Kintargo and Vyre to their respective common defense, and confirm their necessary rights in furtherance of the exercise thereof: to erect, maintain, and defend circuits of walls around their Communes; to come and go within and without same but to charge tolls at rates determined by law for the entry and exit through same and at ports; and to hold markets therein on days determined by law—and the further rights of the citizens of Kintargo to charter companies for the storage and exclusive trade in salt, fishes, raw stone and finished masonry, and raw and finished silver not coined; to coin money in copper, silver, gold, and platinum denominations according to weights and measures determined by law; to levy and collect taxes on property and to disburse Communal property; and to assemble from time to time for the purpose of electing a Lord-Mayor and Justices to rule according to law.
The High Contracting Parties each, jointly and severally, recognize and confirm the rights of the territories comprising "Ravounel"—viz.: the Communes of Kintargo and Vyre, the North Plains not comprised in Nidal, and the lands of and surrounding Ravounel Forest, bounded jointly by that line which is drawn from the easternmost source of Thrune's Chance Creek to the highest peak of Mount Emihym; thence along the crest of the Menador Mountains which divides the rivers that flow into the Arcadian Ocean from those which flow into the Hellmouth Gulf and the Inner Sea, to the highest peak of Mount Nyisaid; thence along that line which is drawn westerly to the easternmost inlet of the Arcadian Ocean; thence along the shore to the mouth of Thrune's Chance Creek in Nisroch Bay; thence up along the middle of that river to its easternmost source; comprehending all islands within sixty miles of any part of the shores of Ravounel, and lying between a line to be drawn due west from the point where the aforesaid boundary with Hellcoast shall touch the Arcadian Ocean on the one part, and a line to be drawn due north from the point where the aforesaid boundary with Nidal shall touch the Steaming Sea on the other part, excepting such islands as now are, or heretofore have been within the limits of the said Nidal and Hellcoast; and comprehending all waters within 12 miles of any part of the shores of Ravounel—to join with Kintargo in the exercise of its rights and duties upon confirmation of a resident representative who enjoys the acclaim of its people according to law.
The High Contracting Parties each, jointly and severally, recognize and confirm that during their term a Lord-Mayor ratified in their position by a majority of a Board of Governors consisting in plenum of one lineal or adopted descendant each of five families known to the High Contracting Parties may from time to time delegate the duty of the defense of Kintargo and of Ravounel, and the exercise of any or all of the rights enumerated herein, to the High Contracting Parties, jointly or severally, and their respective agents, in furtherance of the purposes, and pursuant to the terms, of the Cheliax Covenant from which this Agreement shall be unseverable—but between terms of a duly ratified Lord-Mayor the High Contracting Parties shall not be obstructed in the exercise of their duly delegated rights throughout Ravounel in furtherance of their duly delegated duties and the purposes of the Cheliax Covenant.
The High Contracting Parties each, jointly and severally, recognize and confirm that a usurpation of the rights of the citizens of Kintargo as enumerated herein shall constitute a breach, and be grounds for termination, of this Agreement.
In code #######,####:####,#######. Subject to ASMODEUS’S veto, honor to his name.
Signed in blood and bound by soul—
ABROGAIL THRUNE {Seal}
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In a similar vein, a possible text of the agreement adhered to in furtherance of Mission 2: Uniting Ravounel (see The Kintargo Contract, at *27 - 28), that constitutes in essential form the state depicted in various Lost Omens texts (e.g., the World Guide, Legends, Tomorrow Must Burn, Firebrands):
To all whom these Presents shall come, we the undersigned, being duly constituted and appointed delegates of the respective Communes and Cantons affixed to our names under the terms of the Kintargo Contract, agree to the words following, viz. "Treaty of Confederation between the Communes of Kintargo and Vyre and the Cantons of Ravounel Isles, Ravounel Forest, the North Plains, and the Coastal Waters."
Article I.
The name of the confederation shall be the "Dominion of Ravounel."
Article II.
Sovereignty essentially resides in the people of Ravounel, which confirms and guarantees to each Commune and Canton every power, jurisdiction, and right which is constituted in it by the Kintargo Contract for so long as the Cheliax Covenant shall endure.
Article III.
The said Communes and Cantons hereby enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defense, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of sovereignty, religion, trade, or any other pretense whatsoever.
Article IV.
The better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among the people of Ravounel, the citizens of each Commune and Canton, fugitives from justice excepted, shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in all the Communes and Cantons; and the people of each Commune and Canton shall have free ingress and regress to and from any other Commune or Canton, and shall enjoy therein all the privileges of trade and commerce, subject to the same duties, impositions, and restrictions as the inhabitants thereof respectively, provided that such restrictions shall not extend so far as to prevent the removal of property imported into any Commune or Canton, to any other Commune or Canton, of which the owner is inhabitant; provided also that no imposition, duties, or restriction shall be laid by any Commune or Canton, on the property of the Dominion of Ravounel or any other Commune or Canton.
If any person guilty of, or charged with, treason, felony, or other high misdemeanor in any Commune or Canton, shall flee from justice, and be found in any Commune or Canton, they shall, upon demand of the executive power of the Commune or Canton from which they fled, be delivered up and removed to the Commune or Canton having jurisdiction of their offense.
Full faith and credit shall be given in each Commune and Canton to the records, acts, and judicial proceedings of the courts and Justices of every other Commune and Canton.
Article V.
For the purpose of exercising the executive power of Ravounel, viz.: carrying out the government, defense, and foreign relations of Ravounel, the Peers of each Commune and Canton, viz.: for the Commune of Kintargo, the Lord-Mayor; for the Commune of Vyre, such King or Queen as they shall among themselves elect; for the Canton of Ravounel Isles, such King or Queen of Vyre as they shall among themselves elect; for the Canton of Ravounel Forest, the Rokoa of Tastikka; for the Canton of the North Plains the Mayor of Cypress Point; and for the Canton of the Coastal Waters the Speaker of Acisazi, shall meet in Council, personally or if not the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo through duly constituted and appointed commissioners, in Kintargo on the fourteenth day of Neth each year.
Sessions of the Council of Peers shall continue from the fourteenth day of Neth each year through the thirteenth day of Neth the following year. Meetings of the Council of Peers shall be convened, presided over, and adjourned by the Dominus or Domina of Ravounel, who shall be the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo. The presence of a majority of Peers or commissioners, but including the Dominus or Domina, shall be sufficient for the transaction of business.
In determining questions in the Council of Peers, each Commune and Canton shall have one vote and a majority of votes shall determine the question, but the Domina shall break any ties.
The Council of Peers may relieve of its own motion, and shall from time to time appoint with the consent of the Silver Council: officers of the army and navy, and officers of the militias above the rank of Colonel; the heads of such cabinet departments as may be constituted but including departments for war, peace, religion, education, external security, internal security, finance, and justice; ambassadors; and Justices of courts other than those of the Communes.
Freedom of speech and debate in the Council of Peers shall not be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of the Council of Peers, and the Peers and commissioners shall be protected in their persons from arrests or imprisonments, during the time of their going to and from, and attendance at the Council of Peers, except for treason, felony, or breach of the peace. Minutes of meetings of the Council of Peers shall be published no later than thirty days following the close of each session.
Article VI.
Ravounel shall enter into treaties in the name of the Dominus or Domina, on the consent of the Council of Peers and the Kintargo Assembly. No Commune or Canton shall lay any imposts or duties which may interfere with any stipulations in treaties entered into by Ravounel.
No Commune or Canton, without the consent of the Dominus or Domina, shall send any embassy to, or receive any embassy from, or enter into any conference, agreement, alliance or treaty with any foreign State, but consent to send embassies to and receive embassies from Irim and Mirivenn shall not be denied to the Canton of the Coastal Waters and the agreements, alliances, and treaties as between Acisazi on the one part and Irim or Mirivenn on the other part, hitherto existing, continue in force, with the Dominion of Ravounel to assume such rights and duties thereunder as the Council of Peers shall accept.
No two or more Communes or Cantons shall enter into any treaty, confederation, or alliance whatsoever between them, without the consent of the Council of Peers, specifying accurately the purposes for which the same is to be entered into, and how long it shall continue.
No person holding any office of profit or trust under the Dominion of Ravounel, or any Commune or Canton, shall accept any present, emolument, office, or title of any kind whatsoever from any foreign State; nor shall the Dominion of Ravounel, or any Commune or Canton, create any title of nobility.
Each Commune and Canton shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia of land forces, sufficiently armed and accoutered and provided with officers up to and including the rank of Colonel by election from among the militia, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a proper quantity of arms, ammunition, and camp equipage; but no vessel of war shall be kept up, nor letters of marque or reprisal granted, by any Commune or Canton, and the upkeep of the army and navy shall be the responsibility of the legislative power, and the garrisoning of forts and granting of letters of marque or reprisal shall be the responsibility of the Council of Peers.
No Commune or Canton shall engage in any war without the consent of the Kintargo Assembly, unless such Commune or Canton be actually invaded by enemies.
Article VII.
All charges of war, and all other expenses that shall be incurred for the common defense or general welfare, and allowed by the Kintargo Assembly, shall be defrayed out of a common treasury, which shall be supplied by the people of each Commune and Canton according to taxes laid and levied by the Kintargo Assembly.
Article VIII.
The Silver Council and Kintargo Assembly shall jointly and exclusively exercise the legislative power of Ravounel, viz: guaranteeing and confirming the rights, privileges, and immunities of citizens and residents of Ravounel; establishing rules for citizenship and naturalization; determining on peace or war; sending or receiving ambassadors; entering into treaties and alliances; regulating trade with foreign States; establishing rules for deciding in all cases, what captures on land or water shall be legal, and in what manner prizes taken by land or naval forces in the service of Ravounel shall be divided or appropriated; establishing rules for the local government of the Baronies and Archbaronies, and chartering Communes, respecting the principle of popular sovereignty; coining money throughout Ravounel and regulating the alloy and value of coin struck by its authority; fixing the standards of weights and measures throughout Ravounel; regulating trade and industry throughout Ravounel; establishing post offices throughout Ravounel and exacting such postage on the papers passing through the same as may be requisite to defray their expenses; determining the salaries of the army, naval, and cabinet department officers, and Justices; ascertaining the necessary budgets to be raised for the army, navy, cabinet departments, courts, and other public expenses; appropriating and applying the same for defraying the public expenses; laying, levying, and collecting taxes; and borrowing money or emitting bills of credit.
In each exercise of the legislative power, the Silver Council shall have the initiative of bills and the Kintargo Assembly shall pronounce decision on bills, but the Kintargo Assembly shall have of its own motion the power to amend bills initiated by the Silver Council. Should the office of Lord-Mayor fall vacant, the Silver Council shall within seven days publish a bill for the election of a Lord-Mayor from among all citizens of Kintargo.
The citizens shall Assemble in Kintargo, from sunup to sundown each day until all questions put to them have been decided, no later than fourteen days following the publication of a bill by the Silver Council for their consideration, but no less frequently than every fourteenth day of Neth every two years for the purpose of electing the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo, and the Justices of Kintargo who shall for the two years following their election have original and en banc appellate jurisdiction over all crimes arising within the Commune of Kintargo and matters arising between a citizen of the Commune of Kintargo and any other person or between any two Communes and Cantons or between a Commune or Canton on the one part and Ravounel on the other or between a Commune or Canton or Ravounel on the one part and any foreign State on the other, and appellate jurisdiction over all other crimes and matters over which any court of Ravounel has jurisdiction, and whose number shall be determined by law.
The Kintargo Assembly shall be presided over by the Council of Peers. In determining questions in Kintargo Assembly, each citizen shall have one vote and a majority of votes shall determine the question, the Council of Peers shall collectively break any ties.
Freedom of speech and debate in the Kintargo Assembly shall not be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of the Kintargo Assembly, and the citizens shall be protected in their persons from arrests or imprisonments, during the time of their going to and from, and attendance at the Kintargo Assembly, except for treason, felony, or breach of the peace.
The Silver Council shall solely and exclusively determine its composition and rules of order, viz.: establishing rules for and deciding upon admissions, salaries, and expulsions of its members but no person shall be a member who is not a citizen of Ravounel, or who is a Peer; deciding upon the durations of its sessions and meetings; and electing from among its members a Speaker to preside over its meetings and the meetings of cabinet and to report to the Council of Peers the minutes and decisions of such meetings and the receipts and disbursements of the government departments, and such other officers as are necessary for the transaction of business.
In determining questions in the Silver Council, each member shall have one vote and a majority of votes shall determine the question, but the Speaker shall break any ties.
Freedom of speech and debate in the Silver Council shall not be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of the Silver Council, and the members shall be protected in their persons from arrests or imprisonments, during the time of their going to and from, and attendance at the Silver Council, except for treason, felony, or breach of the peace. Meetings of the Silver Council shall be public, and minutes of its meetings shall be published no later than seven days following the close of each meeting.
Article IX.
All privileges and immunities proclaimed by the Silver Council before the execution of the present Treaty shall be guaranteed henceforth by law.
All bills of credit emitted, monies borrowed, and debts contracted by, or under the authority of the Silver Council, before the execution of the present Treaty, in pursuance of the present confederation, shall be deemed and considered as a charge against Ravounel, for payment and satisfaction whereof the public faith of Ravounel is solemnly pledged.
Article X.
Every Commune and Canton shall abide by the determinations of the Council of Peers and Kintargo Assembly, on all questions which by virtue of this Treaty are submitted to them. And the Articles of this Treaty shall be inviolably observed by every Commune and Canton, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them, unless such alteration be agreed to by the Council of Peers and the Kintargo Assembly.
Wherefore know ye that we the undersigned delegates, by virtue of the power and authority to us given for that purpose, do by these presents, in the name of our respective Communes and Cantons, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the articles of the said Treaty of Confederation, and all and singular the matters and things therein contained: and we do further solemnly plight and engage the faith of our respective Communes and Cantons, that they shall abide by the determines of the Council of Peers and Kintargo Assembly, on all questions, which by the said Treaty are submitted to them. And that the articles thereof shall be inviolably observed by the Communes and Cantons we respectively represent, and that the Union shall be perpetual.
In witness whereof we have hereunto set our hands.
On the part and behalf of the Commune of Kintargo:
LORD-MAYOR JILIA BAINILUS {Seal}
Done at Kintargo the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]
On the part and behalf of the Commune of Vyre:
MANTICCE KALEEKII {Seal}
Done at Vyre the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]
On the part and behalf of the Canton of Ravounel Isles
MANTICCE KALEEKII {Seal}
Done at Vyre the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]
On the part and behalf of the Canton of Ravounel Forest
ROKOA SOLMESTRIA {Seal}
Done at Tastikka the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]
On the part and behalf of the Canton of the North Plains
XERELILAH {Seal}
Done at Cypress Point the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]
On the part and behalf of the Canton of the Coastal Waters
SPEAKER ATHANNAH QUHURILL {Seal}
Done at Acisazi the [day] day of [month] in the year [year]
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Would this also include things like honorary membership in things like national academic institutions?
Ravounel does not have "national [read: public] academic institutions." Alabaster Academy is self-governing and self-funding through endowments and tuition, and has jealously guarded both privileges through some quite hard times in the name of maintaining academic freedom. Other institutions of learning we know about, like Lady Docur's and the parochial schools attached to the major temples (e.g., of Shelyn, of Abadar) use a similar model. And of course there is no such thing as mandatory universal education - most education is done on an apprenticeship basis.
In any event, the rights of Chelish subjects relative to Ravounel citizens in matters of access to Alabaster Academy are governed by the Treaty of Peace between Ravounel and Cheliax. Nereza, naturally, pushes for complete equality as between these classes in terms of admission and tuition.
I'm currently in a situation where the legal intricacies of the Kintargo Contract is giving me some GM headaches.
Situation:
My heroic players have wrapped up part 5, and we just started part 6 and and are about to enter into the negotiations with Cheliax (Nereza).
They have for quite a while discussed the possibility of making Kintargo more democratic, and would have liked to increase the number of members in the Board of Governors from 5, to also including f.ex. 1-2 persons from each district of Kintargo.
One reason for this is that they are afraid that Queen Abrogail & Cheliax will set a price on the head of each board member and their families. If one or more are eliminated (covertly) it would lead to a need to get new members/families ratified in. Ref what Odexidie mentiones on pg.17 of the Kintargo Contract.
"Hopefully, you’ll be able to find descendants of all five lines, since if any of these lines have died out without a new line being ratified in, I’m afraid you’ll be out of luck without having Cheliax’s current queen issue an official addendum to the contract."
1) If Odexidie is to be believed (and we trust contract devils, after all), this would imply that the adjustment my players have in mind MIGHT be possible. But it would require an addendum approved by the Queen of Cheliax.
2) And if so, does that actually mean that even after the secession of Ravounel from Cheliax the Queen of Cheliax will still have power over how the people of Kintargo choose their Lord-Mayor?
What happens the next time (in 150 years) when the people of Kintargo forgets to have a Board of Governors select their Lord-Mayor. Will suddently the Chelish army be able to swoop in? Or am I missing an obvious infernal loophole in the Kintargo Contract?
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First off, kudos to your players for their democratic instincts. Pushing against the strictures of the reactionary institution, the laws establishing it, and the power underlying it, is always correct.
That said, there are problems with expanding the Board of Governors, of both principle and logistics.
First, The Kintargo Contract--the adventure, not the document, though I've integrated the provision into my exegesis of the document, supra--expressly provides that meetings of the Board of Governors must be plenary rather than by quorum. See id., at *23 ("In order to officially ratify a lord-mayor of Kintargo, a majority (3 out of 5) vote from a fully-staffed Board of Governors must be recorded before no fewer than a dozen witnesses.") (emphasis added). That is, all members, rather than a majority of members, must be present to vote. The structure of the adventure strongly reinforces this notion. If the Board of Governors was permitted to meet by quorum, it would be possible to obtain the necessary majority by convening and obtaining the unanimous consent only of representatives of Houses Solstine, Mayhart, and Urvis, and to bar the counterrevolutionaries Melodia Delronge and Geoff Tanessen from attending. But this is not the case. "[T]he PCs need Melodia[ Delronge]'s cooperation only long enough to ratify Jilia[ Bainilus]'s appointment." Id., at *20 (emphasis added); see also, id. ("With respect to the Kintargo Contract, this development [Carliss Mayhart's imprisonment making him unable to attend a meeting of the Board of Governors] is a disaster."). Geoff Tanessen likewise "need[s]... to join the Board of Governors." Id., at *22. Unless the Kintargo Contract is amended, an expanded Board of Governors would still need to adhere to the plenary rule, making conventions of the Board all the more difficult with each member added. The plenary rule also means that expanding the Board does not accomplish what your players want it to accomplish: securing the Board from sabotage at a single point of failure. Whether the full plenum of the Board be five, fifteen, or fifty, one missing Governor still renders it unable to act.
Second, the provision for adding "a new [family] line" is pretty clearly intended to replace extinct lines rather than expanding the size of the Board, which moreover in various places appears limited to five members. Id., at *18[1] ("Had any of [the original five] family lines died out, forming a valid Board of Governors would have required ratification of a new line by the Chelish government.") (emphasis added); see also, id., at *7 (the "'Board of Governors'... is... defined as a group of five individuals"), 9 ("five family lines are required to reconvene the Board of Governors"), 16 ("five bloodlines [are] required to form the Board of Governors"... "'The Board of Governors is to consist of five people'"), 18 ("five family lines [are] required to reform the Board of Governors"). Further, as you recognize, naming a new line requires the assent of the Chelish government, which places a key institution of Ravounel outside the democratic control of its people and under the control of a foreign autocrat.
Third, the situation you fear, of "[w]hat happens the next time (in 150 years) when the people of Kintargo forgets to have a Board of Governors select their Lord-Mayor," is the situation prevailing at the start of the AP, and as you note, this gave the Chelish government a free hand in Ravounel.
I would propose that a solution to the problems of people forgetting that the Board of Governors exists, and of its undemocratic nature, would be to make all five Governor positions elective, from among all the members of the five families. Nowhere does The Kintargo Contract (the adventure or the document) provide that a Governor must be the head of his family, only a member. It is only circumstance and possibly tradition that "requires" the particular individuals enumerated in the adventure be the ones chosen to fill out the Board. The procedure for choosing a Governor from among each family is undefined, and can thus be determined by ordinary law rather than by amending the Kintargo Contract. That law can provide that the electorate for the Board of Governors be coextensive with the electorate for the Lord-Mayor of Kintargo/Domina of Ravounel (e.g., all citizens of Kintargo, all citizens of Ravounel, or what have you), and that elections to the Board of Governors take place at the same time and in the same manner as elections of the Lord-Mayor/Domina. This electorate will presumably choose a slate of Governors they believe will ratify their choice of Lord-Mayor/Domina without trouble. And doing so at the same time as the Lord-Mayor/Domina election will reinforce the memory of the Board's existence. Finally, electing Governors means that the Board can be brought into the democratic governance of the country in whatever capacity rather than sidelined into a singular duty of ratifying the election of a Lord-Mayor/Domina. Its members might serve as judges, or on the Silver Council, or as government ministers.
A further security of the democracy and integrity of the Board might be to provide by law that each family must adopt a certain number of individuals to fill out its numbers. The most radical form of such a law might be that each family must adopt as members every citizen of Ravounel. Combined with the electoral law contemplated above, this makes every citizen of Ravounel a candidate for election to each of the five seats on the Board of Governors. And expanding each family to include every citizen of Ravounel would make it impossible for Cheliax to render any family extinct without killing every citizen of Ravounel--a thing which is functionally impossible. Not incidentally, depending on the prevailing inheritance law of Ravounel, such a law could also divide the five families' properties among the people.
[1] I'm citing this line preferentially to Odexidie's explanation because it is written in the objective voice of the author and not in the voice of a potentially unreliable character.
1) If Odexidie is to be believed (and we trust contract devils, after all), this would imply that the adjustment my players have in mind MIGHT be possible. But it would require an addendum approved by the Queen of Cheliax.
2) And if so, does that actually mean that even after the secession of Ravounel from Cheliax the Queen of Cheliax will still have power over how the people of Kintargo choose their Lord-Mayor?What happens the next time (in 150 years) when the people of Kintargo forgets to have a Board of Governors select their Lord-Mayor. Will suddently the Chelish army be able to swoop in? Or am I missing an obvious infernal loophole in the Kintargo Contract?
It's been a long time since I've ran Hell's Rebels but IIRC, the family lines that can ratify the mayor can't be changed without House Thrune making the change so adding families to it would be nearly impossible.
BUT! There's nothing saying that you can't add people to the board even though they don't contractually have to be part of the board. The entire board can vote, the entire board ratifies the new mayor and so long as someone from each of the 5 families is part of the board it should count. (I think; like I said, it's been awhile.)Adding members would also make it harder for House Thrune to know the correct people that had to die, if House Thrune even REALIZES what's going on.
Keep in mind, "the cunning skill with which I sculpted the contract’s words remains unappreciated" meaning that no one else likely knows about the clause so House thrune probably doesn't know that a ratified lord-mayor can stop Cheliax from entering Ravounel.
For your 2nd question, yes, Cheliax would (probably) still be able to change the contract if they knew about it and if new terms could be negotiated. But the PCs have done a huge favour for Odexidie so they may be able to finagle a way to make it so that either the contract can't be changed or get it changed themselves so that Ravounel can have more control of itself.
In 150 if a properly ratified lord-mayor changes the rules and allows the army of Cheliax to enter Ravounel's borders, well, then there might be a chance for another group of Silver Ravens to step up and save the day.
First: Thanks, both of you, for the quick replies with interesting thoughts and views :)
Overall I really want to reward my players for being interested in making the city better, so not being able to say (without doubt about the correctness of the ruling) "Yes, my dear heroes, we can adjust the contract and let ol' Queen Abrogail sit there with egg on her face." was a bit annoying. But the ideas you have are very interesting.
They have used Rexus Victocora as a "back room administrator" of sorts, and I am thinking he could sit down with them and say something along the lines of "I have gone over the contract again, and I must unfortunately say that it seems not possible to adjust the contract." But then, with a gleam in his eye say "However... I think I have a solution ..."
@Zimmerwald1915, one question regarding your idea about opening up for adoptions in the 5 families. You quote the following:
"five bloodlines [are] required to form the Board of Governors".
My initial thought when reading this was that the family members must actually be related by blood - not just by adopting someone to the family.
To some extent I guess it's either up to what is defined as "related" / "same family" in Cheliax.
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@Zimmerwald1915, one question regarding your idea about opening up for adoptions in the 5 families. You quote the following:
"five bloodlines [are] required to form the Board of Governors".
My initial thought when reading this was that the family members must actually be related by blood - not just by adopting someone to the family.
To some extent I guess it's either up to what is defined as "related" / "same family" in Cheliax.
Laria Longroad's case establishes pretty definitively that one can count as a candidate for Governorship by being adopted into one of the five families, or at least by being made heir to a Governor. She is no Urvis by blood--her ancestor, Peletera Talltallow, was Alveda Urvis's servant[1] before being made her heir. See Groves, et al., Pathfinder Adventure Path #101: The Kintargo Contract, at *22 - 23 (2016) ("Baroness Urvis bequeathed the entire estate, along with all rights and privileges, to her loyal halfling caretaker, Peletera Talltallow").
[1] I read Peletera as having been a free servant at the time of the bequeathing because she is only referred to as being "sold into slavery" afterwards. See id., at *23.
Ah, yes, good point. I must admit I had forgotten about that. I have replaced house Urvis with the (almost extinct) house of one of my players. Thanks for the reminder. Then it's more a matter of how such an adoption law is written (that it must come with "all rights and privileges"). :)
Okay. I've been looking at the Grundlescorn sisters and... well, honestly I sometimes wonder if the game designers fully understand what spells do. Because Commune allows for (at level 10) 10 yes/no questions. So it's not exactly useful to track down people going into a forest... and honestly, after even just a dozen years, a God or Goddess is going to get pretty damn tired of each day getting a "is there anyone powerful entering our forest?" and probably start quietly wishing some adventurers would show up to gank them. (And as a spell-like ability they aren't even spending 500 gold of incense per casting, so honestly it's a bit insulting for that God being bothered.)
I'm going to change things up a little. The Grundlescorn sisters have crafted pathways through the forest. They have crafted glades as well, peaceful areas that are good places to set up camp before going forth into the forest... and due to the limitation of the Scry spell and Crystal Balls to only scry on people rather than locations, they have kidnapped various couples over the decades and used Baleful Polymorph to transform the couples into turtles, keeping them together so there's a spare in case one dies. (I had considered them turning people into fruit trees but the spell doesn't work that way and as trees they might not count as people anyway.)
So each day they Scry using a Crystal Ball on their turtles. They look at the glades to see if anyone is camping there and thus they have a better idea if anyone is intruding on their forests. (They follow lumberjacks back home to their villages and kidnap children to eat.) And they hate the Strix because those wretched creatures not only protect their children but also fly and are hard to keep track of. And they probably only Commune once a week to avoid annoying their patron Goddess to see if any new powerful threats are planning on entering their forests or have entered their forests.
(Alternatively, one of the Hags could just use their Vision spell-like ability and learn of any Legendary aspects of their forest each day. Characters level 11+ would be included in this, so it would show the Hags any significant threats to their domain. The problem is the Hag in question would be fatigued after the casting.)