The Heart's Harvest ritual has the condition of: "...his soul and the souls of all those who served him directly in life are forfeit to Mephistopheles..."
What are people's thoughts on who would be affected by this? Obviously his lieutenants but what about all of the dottari? Would the dottari that were in Kintargo before he came to town count? What if they quit within a week of Thrune becoming the lord-mayor? Would people say that Tayacet Tiora's soul (as written) would be damned?
Considering how many souls appear in the Tower of Bone later on I tend to assume that dottari and Tayacet (as well as Chelish Citizens Group thugs) would all be damned but I'd like to get other people's thoughts on it as well.
My deranged ramblings on this topic: This hinges on two items: 1) Barzillai is an Inquisitor of Asmodeus - he is explicitly empowered to Judge everyone in Cheliax; and 2) from early on in book 2, he's in the Soul Anchor. Everyone who dies from that point on goes through him to get to their afterlife destination. Anyone who failed him is judged accordingly and sent to Caina and the Tower of Bone. Anyone who is a servant of House Thrune, other Noble Houses, the Temple of Asmodeus, Hellknight order, Chelish Citizens Group - really a good sized chunk of Kintargo's Citizens who are all under House Thrune's authority. At least until the separation of Ravounel is ratified in Book 6. After that only direct servants of those groups head to Hell. It mostly stops when the pc's remove Barzillai's heart from the Soul Anchor. Though Pharasma still sends those who truly deserve it on to the the Tower of Bone even after that.
To avoid this fate you must have formally and publicly have renounced your service to Thrune/Asmodeus. So, Dottari who actually informed their superiors they were quitting are exempt. If they simply deserted, off to the Tower of Bone you go. Tiora's fate is similar - if she did not withdraw from Barzillai's service and died either while betraying him or afterwards - to the Tower with you. Note: pc's with certain types of background might be vulnerable as well. Joining the Silver Ravens and fighting against Thrune is simply treason, you have to have made a clear statement you were leaving. Remember, this is Asmodeus - the spirit of the law is irrelevant, the letter of the law is all.
I think you could solidify the connection to Barzillai if you had him "reviewing the troops" and requiring each to take loyalty oaths to him personally.
Amazing idea! Totally using this even though the players never saw it. It would've taken a week or so after he arrived to get it all sorted so anyone that left before then isn't damned. (Eg: The previous Duxotar that left the day after the Night of Ashes and was replaced by Trex)
My deranged ramblings on this topic: THINGS
I think I like these ideas so I want to make sure I'm understanding your views correctly and add some more specifics/my thoughts on them:
The majority (nearly all) of the people in the Tower of Bone are people that served him earlier in his career/before he arrived in Kintargo so anyone that served him and had already died were transferred to the Tower of Bone no matter where they were in the afterlife. That makes sense, right?The nobles would go even if they didn't work for him? I don't think I'll go that far as some of them were opposed to him/didn't support him even if though they weren't public about it. (Unless they died between book 2 and the end of the campaign, because I like the idea of the souls going through him before moving on to Pharasma.)
"Anyone who is a servant of House Thrune" and not just Barzillai? If they serve under the queen they'd be damned to the Tower of Bone? That could explain why there's so many people there, but I don't think that's the intention of the contract. I think it's personal to just Barzillai and those that served him.
Temple of Asmodeus people, Hellknights of the Rack, and Chelish Citizens Group members all make sense to me.
Publicly quitting even though you still served him for a time saves your soul? What if they denounced him after he's already died? (Eg: Tayacet switched sides but didn't formally quit)
Maybe I'll have it that anyone that swore an oath to him will be damned... Dottari would've, underlings throughout his career, Hellknights of the Rack, I'm sure the CCG had some sort of 'swearing in' ceremony even if Thrune wasn't there but that would still count... And then if someone did some sort of ceremony to denounce him then their soul isn't damned. (EG: Seeking redemption in some way, having Atonement cast on you, something like that, could save your soul.)
The noble families would've had to swear fealty to him... Even if they didn't mean it they said it so they'd be damned unless they seek redemption.
My ideas on this are forming even as I write it.
Only those who failed Barzillai after he signed the Heart's Harvest contract can be damned. The contract wasn't in force so failure prior to signature can't be "punished."
The noble families in Kintargo and in the rest of Cheliax are legally bound to serve House Thrune - their personal opinions or enthusiasm for doing so are irrelevant. Unless they've declared in some clear, public fashion they are disavowing House Thrune, any failure of theirs has consequences, even if its simply dying while Barzillai is working to subdue Kintargo - if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Even those noble families whose allegiance is to Kintargo depend almost entirely on Cheliax social structures and House Thrune's rule for legitimacy. And legal claim to their wealth, properties, etc.
Barzillai is the official ruler of Kintargo from House Thrune's point of view so everyone owes their loyalty to him regardless. The Kintargo Contract doesn't apply since it hasn't been invoked, Kintargo is part of Cheliax until it formally exits. Certain groups may be exempt - priests of gods other than Asmodeus whose public loyalty is clearly to their deity, perhaps members of the Bellflower Network, a long established resistance engaged in consistent unlawful, disobedient acts, and so on.
I think there is a lot of elbow room to leave the details vague. Unless the pc's are directly affected by any definition made (they die and get sent to the Tower of Bone) the details can be left fuzzy. Most people who fail Barzillai or House Thrune while his heart is in the Soul Anchor get sent to the Tower of Bone for punishment. But some don't - exactly why can be left undefined. And maybe some of those souls in the Tower of Bone have retained their memories - getting processed through the corrupted Soul Anchor can have that affect.
It's all good. My ideas are still forming too. :D
I'm thinking that the people that are damned are those that have directly served Barzillai at some point throughout his life. This is based on a few things in Breaking the Bones of Hell. Most notably:
"All of the damned souls imprisoned and tormented in the Tower of Bone share one thing in common—in life, these mortals served Barzillai Thrune. Most of these unfortunates perished long before this Adventure Path began, but some of them died during Barzillai’s time in Kintargo."
And the vast amount of souls in "The Solitary Thousands" are hard to justify if it's only people that have died since he entered the Soul Anchor.
So yeah, I think I'll be going with the idea that souls were transferred to the Tower of Bone from wherever they were in the afterlife upon Barzillai's death. And those souls will be anyone that swore fealty to him/vowed to serve him, which is something he would've expected from pretty much everyone that he had any amount of power over.
My players waited until the Grundlescorn Sisters were all asleep, went to sneak in, freaked out with the golem guarding them, sneaked away, monk used Abundant Step 3 times with dropping one character off each time, and then they each coup de graced a sleeping sister.
It was amazing and I loved it!
Just a quick hello to say that I'm loving how this book's intro was written - the contracts, the devil's note saying he's 'more than willing to clear his schedule', the hellmouth, etc.
Just amazing stuff! GM candy! thank you!!
This book seems a little strange as bunch of the module missions seem optional as people will sign on regardless . It it relying on PCs being a combo of wanting to help and also wanting XP and treasure?
I am not sure if this is the right place but does anyone have an incite into Vyre politics ? Perhaps this should have come up in book 3. Does the Queen of Delights really have the sway to take the entire city along with her. Book 3 was about not actively siding with Barzillai and there wasn’t a massive impact to the “alliance”
Signing on against all of Cheliax seems different somehow ...
The added wrinkle in my game is Hei Fen got away. I am not sure what the King of Keys thinks of this? Or would he not care as she was supposed to be semi retired and was stupid for getting mixed up in personal vendettas anyway? A 17th level cleric is not one to mess with. But you could assume all the kings and queens now have some kind of interest in the stat of things?
A little stumped here.
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I am not sure if this is the right place but does anyone have an incite into Vyre politics ? Perhaps this should have come up in book 3. Does the Queen of Delights really have the sway to take the entire city along with her. Book 3 was about not actively siding with Barzillai and there wasn’t a massive impact to the “alliance”
The King/Queen of Delights is actually called "Vyre's primary diplomat" (Dance of the Damned, 20), so yes, Kaleeki probably does have the authority to bind Vyre in negotiations with other polities. That does, however, imply that Vyre is not an integral part of Ravounel - or at least that its free city status is in tension with its membership in Ravounel, as the LOWG implies not just for Vyre, but also for the other regions (the Waters, the North Plains, and Ravounel Forest). The PCs probably undertake missions not to secure the initial allegiance of the regions, but long-term goodwill as insurance against secessionism down the line.
(Also, I believe you meant "insight.")
I did but my phone autocorrected and I didn’t realise
Thanks for the above
In the Cheliax Covenant was violated, what would be the immediate manifestation of "House Thrune would lose Hell's support" (17)? Would all the devils go poof? What would happen?
I think it is complicated. It says House Thrune but not the church of Asmodeus for example
I don't know the exact nature of the support provided to House Thrune.
But I assume the outcome of it's withdrawal is some kind of Game of Thrones style internal civil war where other prominent families try to overthrow them
That says nothing for the Shining Crusade which has taken Westcrown during book 5 and probably successfully pushed further
From the wiki:
"The armies of House Thrune are supplemented with the bound denizens of Hell and they remain close allies of the various orders of Hellknights. Nobles from the House of Thrune regularly enter into dark pacts with infernal agents in return for incredible power. Other noble house have followed House Thrune lead in this practice."
So the army is depleted (I imagine significantly) and potentially these pacts no longer hold? Abrogail might lose her Sorcerer powers for example.
My plan if the players to not share the details of the Kintargo Contract is to resolve it in the epilogue. I'll play it up that Cheliax can not mobilize in a timely manner, with the Glorious Reclamation happening. So that it will always be a big unknown in the background, and that the Barzillai plot gets resolved before Cheliax breaks the Kintargo contract.
(And if I change my mind our friendly contract devil O can always mettle.)
If the players don't share the loophole the portal Odexidie opened doesn't close and many sorts of terrible things can come through to Kintargo.
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If the players don't share the loophole the portal Odexidie opened doesn't close and many sorts of terrible things can come through to Kintargo.
I'd play this as the deal with the devil that it is. Ultimately the bargain that the PCs strike for the sake of their own skins dooms the revolution in broader Cheliax. They'll have to spend the rest of their lives (read: adventuring careers) organizing to make up for that mistake.
How does it doom the revolution in Cheliax ? Are you referring to the loophole in the chellish covenant ?
I am a bit confused by all the contract stuff which perhaps shows it is working as intended !
Wasn’t the reply above merely the hidden condition in the contract to send the group back to Kintargo after dealing with the contract devil. That hidden clause doesn’t impact the rest of Cheliax directly
Or where you referring to something else ?
Contracts: The various local representatives need to sign an agreement with Kintargo otherwise the areas of land that they represent still belong to Cheliax and the Chelaxian army can come and go from those areas as they please.
The Kintargo Contract makes it so that Cheliax can't attack the areas that are considered to be in Ravounel rather than Cheliax.
Odexidie: Do the PCs know which families make up the Silver Council? Because unless the Silver Council formally says that Cheliax isn't allowed into Ravounel then the Kintargo Contract isn't enacted and Cheliax will be able to send their army to reclaim the area.
Odexidie has this information, the contracts do not.
Book 5 feels like a lot more "make work and go up levels" than the rest of the books.
The warehouse mission was was of the best missions in my game! I changed it so that's where the group fought Hei-Fen. But that had nothing to do with why it was memorable.
The best part was a baddie casting "Hold Monster" on one of the PCs, the PC failing their save, and another baddie doing a coup de grace, killing the PC. (He got better before the end of the round, but it was awesome.)
Presumably commune or divination. Or the queen could simply ask the Pit Fiend advisor to House Thrune.
When reading that bit one of my first ideas was making a "Board of Governors" of the entire city (aint no rule the council has to consist only of those families, it has to be unanimous or the board have any other power). Carliss's situation stops that from working unless there's some distant relative who has a claim in the city, but I doubt Cheliax would go for broke on the chance one line is truly extinct.
There isn't a rule that anything has to be done a certain way. You can change things any way you want as it's your game.
But, if you're going exactly by what the books say, page 23 of book 5 tells you that that the responsibility can be passed on to a legal heir even if the person isn't of the original family's blood (otherwise Laria wouldn't be on the Board), it also says that the vote doesn't have to be unanimous, and that House Thrune consults their copy of the Cheliax Covenant (which requires getting another copy of it from Odexidie as Queen Abrogail I destroyed House Thrune's original copy), and consult mortal and infernal barristers to confirm that what the PCs/Lord-Mayor are saying is correct.Having the entire city vote could be problematic for the contract as it would mean the PCs likely don't have to go visit Odexidie, the language involved would have to be incredibly specific as to who counts as "being part of the city," and that set-up likely wouldn't have worked for the original intended purpose as Abrogail I intended to convince or force the Board of Governors to ratify her as the Lord-Mayor and doing that tho the entire city would be harder (if not impossible) and would take too long if she was in a rush to exploit the loophole.
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Contracts: The various local representatives need to sign an agreement with Kintargo otherwise the areas of land that they represent still belong to Cheliax and the Chelaxian army can come and go from those areas as they please.
This provision really bothered me. Who are, for instance, Xereliah and Solmestria to speak for the entirety of the North Plains and Ravounel Forest, respectively? Xereliah is just some person with goodwill in one settlement, accountable to no one but her conscience, making decisions for an arbitrarily large number of people.* Solmestria is at least accountable to her tribe, but her tribe has no more than sixty people in it.** It also speaks to how little the SRs are assumed to have done in the countryside, despite traversing it pretty extensively in Book 3. But that problem has its own thread addressing it.
* Ultimate Campaign implies but doesn't outright state that there should be no more than 250 people per settlement-less hex, a population density of less than 3 people per square mile. Ravounel's eastern border shifts from map to map, with its most westerly position being on the map in Kintargo Contract and its most easterly position being on the map in Tomorrow Must Burn. But taking the Kintargo Contract map as correct, the North Plains region (which includes everything east of the Yolubilis, not just the North Plains themselves) has about 260 hexes in it. Including the settlements of Whiterock (1,500) and Cypress Point (1,850) that's at most 68,000 people (some hexes could be entirely unpopulated).
** Applying the same method to the Ravounel Forest region, which encompasses everything west of the Yolubilis except those parts which are considered parts of the Coastal Waters (I count the watersheds of the rivers draining into the Dismal Nitch as part of the Coastal Waters, but other lines could be drawn, including at the shore) gives a population with an upper bound between 39,000 and 41,000.
(aint no rule the council has to consist only of those families, it has to be unanimous or the board have any other power)
Here's what Odexidie has to say on the subject:
"The Board of Governors is to consist of five people from established Kintargan family lines. The families themselves were not included in the Kintargo contract itself for the sake of language clarity, and the fact that your Silver City abandoned the tradition after Abrogail's death does not impact the legal standing of the contract. But since you're here and asked so nicely, the family names are Delronge, Mayhart, Solstine, Tanessen, and Urvis. Hopefully, you'll be able to find descendants of all five lines, since if any of these lines have died out without a new line being ratified in, I'm afraid you'll be out of luck without having Cheliax's current queen issue an official addendum to the contract. And I assume that’s not something you'll be able to count on her doing."
Breaking this down:
1) The Board of Governors is a five-member body. It may not be expanded, nor may it have a quorum less than five. Each family gets one representative. A family's representative need not be the head of its house.
2) The five families are not named in the contract. The justification for this is in-credible; specifying the families would only create clarity, and not doing so has manifestly created only confusion. And dependence on Odexidie, which is probably the point.
3) The five families are subject to change. Specifically, if a family dies out, the ruling Thrune has the right to seat a new family (presumably this right continues even after Ravounel's independence, making the latter a complete farce. This is a good thing.).
That said, the Board does not have to be unanimous. A majority vote suffices. Nor is there anything to say that a Governor's vote must be free. They can be bribed or coerced - it was Abrogail's plan to do just that. One could imagine Kintargo passing a law that says a Governor must vote for an otherwise duly-chosen Lord-Mayor on pain of death.
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I read the first part as must include, not exclusively so. I supposed "consist of" without a word like primarily or mostly tends to mean only.
The important term isn't actually "consist," it's "is to." That is a definite phrase like "shall" or "will," not a word that allows for discretion like "may" or "can."
How are you supposed to run an illusionary floor like in the offices in the first section?
If a player runs to where the floor is not really there do they get a will save ? The interaction is surely when they first put their foot down. And even if you identify the illusion it is surely too late at that point? Or do you then get some kind of save to dodge or the like?
I ask because one of my players charged forward onto the illusionary floor last time we played . I stopped the session on the almost literal cliffhanger because I realise I didn’t know the actual rules
As written if they fall they are certainly dead - especially as they already took cone of cold damage ...
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How are you supposed to run an illusionary floor like in the offices in the first section?
PC gets a Will save against the spell's DC at the moment they put their foot down on the illusory floor. If they succeed, they get a Reflex save to pull back or grab onto the ledge or something, against a DC of your choice, but probably something like 15 or 20. If they succeed on the Reflex save, they take no damage. If they fail, they take falling damage. If you want to be generous (which you might, in this case, since you say you're looking at potential PC death), let them make an Acrobatics check against the height of the pit; if the role exceeds it, halve the falling damage.
If you want to play it harsh, it is within the rules to have them fall.
Illusions give a save when they are interacted with. Which is the least helpful description, but I've ran it that unless they take some sort of action regarding the illusion, they won't get a save. This almost guarantees that in combat they won't get a save, but should allow them a save at the start of the fight if they took any time to stop and talk and take in the room.
There is the catch yourself while falling rules in the climbing rules, but the DC is very high, DC+20. If the character has a better acrobatics it would be easy to us a reflex or acrobatics to lunge across the gap then their foot goes through the floor?
Take a second to consider how likely death actually is. 20d6 is 70 damage, give or take a few. 70 damage from the fall, 70 damage from hellfire, less if they have protection from evil or fire resist. Then all they need is a fast fly or teleport to get out. Then as long as it doesn't derail the game, an early death here does cement the impression that Hell is a dangerous cruel place that will kill the reckless unfairly. (cause raise dead is affordable at their level.)
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If charging/running: Let them fall. This is Hell.
If advancing regular speed: let them catch the edge with DC 15 Ref save.
If looking for traps/being cautious, allow the Will save vs. illusion as they reach one of the square that is adjacent to the illusion.
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The problem would have been body recovery
The PC would have died as they were knocked down in HP by a failed save against cone of cold
Although they charged I gave them a reflex
Weirdly when I asked this on reddit I am pretty sure no one suggested to let them fall. Even if it was GM tagged I always assume that in most threads either in the paizo boards or reddit are answered by players or people who think “how would I feel if this happened to my PC”
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If the PCs never risk their lives doing anything, especially when visiting Hell, the campaign becomes pointless. I find a lot of battles to be a cakewalk in this AP, while some others can turn really bad if the PCs raise the alarm and have all the monsters being downloaded unto them all at once.
For instance, in the dungeon we are currently speaking of, if they battle the ice devil, ABSOLUTELY and POSITIVELY bring out the small winged archers from the other room! do NOT wait 5-6 rounds for the ice devil to go down, only to cakewalk through the small winged devils a minute later! bring 'em all at once! sounds of battle in an office setting is bound to attract attention!
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Isn't the only reason they'd have a chance of falling into the pit is if they don't sit patiently while in hell?
Yeah, if they decide to go running/fighting through the place, let them have a chance of dying. There's so many ways to find the illusion (Detect Magic comes to mind) that if they don't see it, and fail their saves, let them fall.
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This is a deadly trap and it's been written that way for a reason. It's not the GM's role to softball everything into harmlessness.
So the party is back from Hell and has thrown me several curve balls that I would appreciate some advise on (along with some other questions I have)
- one player wants to make a deal with Odexidie to protect their spouse from the Red Mantis assassins - of which the player was once a part and tasked with killing the person who would become their spouse and not following through (from the backstory)
Now there are holes in this backstory that point to me actually making it that there was a trick in the organisation and that the “hit” was never legitimate. Otherwise there is no good reason why the mantis haven’t come after both the player and target for reputation reasons
But leaving that aside I am not sure what kind of contract could be offered to protect another from multiple independent actors that are part of a third party. Giving them devilbound template with regeneration works as would just taking the spouse to hell?
There obviously needs to be tricks and chicanery . And it is not obvious to me that the soul should be the price but I think it probably should? With the tricks be to get the spouse’s soul as well?
- did anyone have a chance player who wanted to be Lord Mayor? I want to “yes - and” or “yes - but” the group here but I am wondering how Jillia takes to this? Easiest would be that she is relieved having been turned into a vampire last time she was mayor...
Is it feasible for a pc to be mayor and still adventure? (Character who is putting name forward was one from pit incident and is not averse to potentially retiring the character due to a couple of near misses where he thinks he was given the benefit of the doubt)
- how did people pad out getting the governors on side? As written several are very easy which makes getting a simple majority very easy. I know the PCs are suppose to succeed here but it seems rather simple.
That said there is scope to blow the diplomacy with the rival family in the mayhart case (my group has someone with +27) and to mess up the bribe to delronge if you come in far too cheap...
If anything I want them to be uncertain who is going to vote in what direction for at least a deciding vote so they try to convince everyone
They have done urvis and solstine as the checks were easy .
- did anyone tie the missions or random encounters to the governors part beyond the kidnapping (which I will do)?
I guess I could make the vote happen in a week or two and later in the serial killing and have people not want to vote until it is put down or have one of the governors threatened ?
- one of the governors suggests a trade deal but it is mentioned that this is already resolved by Vyre. But if they qualify for the trade deal they also qualify to just include Vyre in Ravounel. I think my players would be skeptical about “a trade deal with themselves”
This seems like it could be solved by changing the trade deal mission or adding an extra step to making Vyre part of the republic
Did anyone add anything like this?
I guess the original plan before space was an issue was for a deal with Nidal and more stuff there? The best options seem to be Nidal, Korvosa or Magnimar. But there isn’t really guidance on how to run a negotiation and I wouldn’t want a repeat of the book 6 stuff
Perhaps a tracking and final defeat of hei-fen to get vyre on side?
I appreciate any help offered !
Also thanks for the suggestions on the pit which unfortunately came a bit late for my game and were much more hard line than the average reddit response and what I could find in the pre existing rules forum posts
I would definitely have Jillia retire and let either a PC take the role (with a strong deputy administrator, so that the PC can tour the countryside of Ravounel) or an NPC that provides some narrative twist.
Long post so I'm just gonna copy paste your questions:
- one player wants to make a deal with Odexidie to protect their spouse from the Red Mantis assassins - of which the player was once a part and tasked with killing the person who would become their spouse and not following through (from the backstory)
----> Yes, absolutely do a deal. Use the contract template found in Appendix of that book. You don't have to overcomplicate things: his spouse is now safe, and the PC's soul will go to Hell when he dies. Or use the complex sample contracts in Appendix if you want other things than his soul.
- did anyone have a chance player who wanted to be Lord Mayor? I want to “yes - and” or “yes - but” the group here but I am wondering how Jillia takes to this? Easiest would be that she is relieved having been turned into a vampire last time she was mayor.
----> No, my players are murderhobos and had no interest in running a town. They almost forced Jilia to take her job back! lol
Is it feasible for a pc to be mayor and still adventure?
----> No; if he keeps adventuring he will be just a figurehead and others will move in to take the real power (a city council person, Silver Raven NPC, a member from the Board of Governors, or a noble)
- how did people pad out getting the governors on side? As written several are very easy which makes getting a simple majority very easy.
----> This part is supposed to be easy and shouldn't take more than an hour or two of game time.
- did anyone tie the missions or random encounters to the governors part beyond the kidnapping (which I will do)?
----> No.
- one of the governors suggests a trade deal but it is mentioned that this is already resolved by Vyre. [...] Did anyone add anything like this?
----> No.
Perhaps a tracking and final defeat of hei-fen to get vyre on side?
----> I didn't do much with Hei-Fen as it felt completely detached from the main plot. I mostly ignored Hei-Fen and the Skinsaw cultists in my campaign. I believed the last time I used them is in the basement of the Opera House in "Dance of the Damned". They were so easy to defeat by the PCs that I felt they were largely a waste of time; i.e. the cultists realize what they're up against an stop trying to meddle in the PCs' affairs, which is a perfectly sane thing to do if you're running an underground organization of lunatics and assassins... the only thing they'd respect is power and fear.
So many questions!
- one player wants to make a deal with Odexidie... Check out the Pathfinder Society scenario "What Prestige is Worth" it has a few ideas for a contract that isn't all or nothing (trading things other than a soul.
- did anyone have a chance player who wanted to be Lord Mayor?... Our Mesmerist became the mayor. I played it up that the former mayor was traumatized and happy to step into an advisory position. Because so many of the governors would vote the way the ravens told them too, I had the players do a blind ballot at the table as each character 'handled' their own governor. I cast a ballot for the more stubborn Governors. It was a fun RP session. We had no problem with an adventurer being mayor, after that point there was a lot a downtime and the future adventures they go on are short or actual diplomatic missions.
- how did people pad out getting the governors on side?... We kept it simple. I did flush out the recruiting the nobles step in an earlier book so it felt like familiar group to the group.
- one of the governors suggests a trade deal but it is mentioned that this is already resolved by Vyre. But if they qualify for the trade deal they also qualify to just include Vyre in Ravounel. I think my players would be skeptical about “a trade deal with themselves”... This never really came up for me. Frame it that Kintargo and Vyre are going to be sister cities, a robust trade treaty is necessary to limit power struggles in the future?
I did use Hei Fen that way. After they killed him in 9 seconds, they found the contract (between Thrune and the King of Keys, in my campaign). This will lead to a Vyre adventure, as I postponed the fancy dress dinner Vyre encounter to book five from book 3. If they get the Queen of Delights on their side, she will ensure Vyre gets onboard with Kintargo for a New Ravounel, as long as they eliminate the King of Keys, which should give her control over the Vyre Council.
Has anyone had the professor successfully Death Attack a PC?
I have just noticed he has hide in plain sight which gives him an opportunity even if they have see invisibility or the lantern
It seems like it could be a tough pill to swallow but a perfectly legitimate tactic if they fail the perception and then the fortitude save (unlikely in my group’s case)
Has it happened and if so how did it go down?
Have I misread the trap in the shadow pyramid?
It seems like as soon as someone enters the room it is likely to spot them unless they are stealthing or invisible
Then it will burst damage and create shadows
So if the whole party move openly into the room then they all get hit and 4 shadows appear ? Do they have chance to spot and disable ?
The only way I see a different scenario to the above is if they go via the top and either one falls or they descend at different speeds...
Another one - what do people make of the Charybdis ?
This is a level where the whole party could conceivably (and rather easily) have Freedom of Movement up
This utterly negates most of this monster leaving it with one attack against 4 PCs. Swallow Whole and Vortex won’t do anything
I wonder if this was written with this eventuality in mind ...
At this level, it's about a fear of total party kill or a death where they can't bring them back. They have plenty of access to raise dead through the campaign.
Has anyone had the professor successfully Death Attack a PC?
I have just noticed he has hide in plain sight which gives him an opportunity even if they have see invisibility or the lanternIt seems like it could be a tough pill to swallow but a perfectly legitimate tactic if they fail the perception and then the fortitude save (unlikely in my group’s case)
Has it happened and if so how did it go down?
High level campaign, so they should either be using clairvoyance, scrying, etherealness, or magic stealth capabilities. If they just bust through the door, it's kosher because they didn't use those tools.
Have I misread the trap in the shadow pyramid?
It seems like as soon as someone enters the room it is likely to spot them unless they are stealthing or invisibleThen it will burst damage and create shadows
So if the whole party move openly into the room then they all get hit and 4 shadows appear ? Do they have chance to spot and disable ?
The only way I see a different scenario to the above is if they go via the top and either one falls or they descend at different speeds...
High level campaign, so they should either be using clairvoyance, scrying, etherealness, or magic stealth capabilities. If they just bust through the door, it's kosher because they didn't use those tools.
Have I misread the trap in the shadow pyramid?
It seems like as soon as someone enters the room it is likely to spot them unless they are stealthing or invisibleThen it will burst damage and create shadows
So if the whole party move openly into the room then they all get hit and 4 shadows appear ? Do they have chance to spot and disable ?
The only way I see a different scenario to the above is if they go via the top and either one falls or they descend at different speeds...
So to clarify - would those divination spells reveal the trap? I have never really got to the levels where those spells get common use (and I can't imagine my players will come up with them either - but just in case)
At this level, it's about a fear of total party kill or a death where they can't bring them back. They have plenty of access to raise dead through the campaign.
Has anyone had the professor successfully Death Attack a PC?
I have just noticed he has hide in plain sight which gives him an opportunity even if they have see invisibility or the lanternIt seems like it could be a tough pill to swallow but a perfectly legitimate tactic if they fail the perception and then the fortitude save (unlikely in my group’s case)
Has it happened and if so how did it go down?
One of the Death attacks would be True Death and potentially turn them into dust though...
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I am struggling with this high level stuff though. My players seem to be doing crazy things but I don't know if this is just that I don't have a frame of reference
I have just done the first half of the Arcadian Deep.
One player has a base 39 AC due to the Manta Ray cloak. No buff spells.
Low AC seems to be 34 so I am generally struggling.
The Kineticist just did 195 points of damage with 2 attacks (out of a possible 3). Albeit using up a lot of burn. But that still seems crazy to me and largely invalidates the fights.
I don't see the Drowning Devil doing anything. Save DCs are too low. The only thing going for it is Mirror Image will slow them down (and slow the game down)
Are all games at this level like this? Or has something gone a bit weird?
I am on record about wanting to stop this one at the end of book 4 but my players talked me into continuing.