Thoughts on Occult Adventures


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Set wrote:
The Mesmerist, like APG's Alchemist (is it a Bomber? Is it a Jekyll & Hyde? Does it use craft - alchemy or brew potions?), seems to be multiple ideas strapped onto one chassis.

I... think you got that backward...

The Alchemist can throw bombs, injects himself with mutagens, brew potions and casts "spells".

The Mesmerist... can only stare, either at a target or an ally. That's it...


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What? No, he's a skill monkey, he's a 6th level caster with a pretty good (if specialized) list whether you stare at the enemy or not, Mesmerist tricks are buffs that in no way require the stare, and touch treatment status removal also doesn't depend on the stare. What on earth are you talking about? It's like saying a Bard can only sing.


Set wrote:
The Mesmerist, like APG's Alchemist (is it a Bomber? Is it a Jekyll & Hyde? Does it use craft - alchemy or brew potions?), seems to be multiple ideas strapped onto one chassis.

What? How is it anything but "Hypnotist"?

Quote:
The Mesmerist... can only stare, either at a target or an ally. That's it...

You know it's a spellcaster, who can also hypnotise his allies to give them buffs, and hypnotise his allies to heal them.


Milo v3 wrote:
You know it's a spellcaster, who can also hypnotise his allies to give them buffs, and hypnotise his allies to heal them.

But he cannot hypnotize several targets at once, like 1 target per 4 levels...


Personally, I love the Occultist. I find it to be a very versatile class even without the use of archetypes.


JiCi wrote:
But he cannot hypnotize several targets at once, like 1 target per 4 levels...

So what if one of your abilities can only affect a certain number of people at once? He has spells and other abilities. There is more than one class feature... Not sure why you are ignoring this.


Milo v3 wrote:
JiCi wrote:
But he cannot hypnotize several targets at once, like 1 target per 4 levels...
So what if one of your abilities can only affect a certain number of people at once? He has spells and other abilities. There is more than one class feature... Not sure why you are ignoring this.

1) I don't usually call a single target "a certain number of people".

2) I'm not denying his other [secondary] abilities; I'm just stating the obvious problem with his [primary] ability, and it's a weird one as well. How come the mesmerist can't hypnotize several targets at once? I know that a Medusa doesn't petrify all targets that look at her, only targeting the one directly meeting eyes, but still... a Mesmerist should get an ability to stare at multiple opponents that have direct line of sight with him.


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JiCi wrote:
2) I'm not denying his other [secondary] abilities; I'm just stating the obvious problem with his [primary] ability, and it's a weird one as well. How come the mesmerist can't hypnotize several targets at once? I know that a Medusa doesn't petrify all targets that look at her, only targeting the one directly meeting eyes, but still... a Mesmerist should get an ability to stare at multiple opponents that have direct line of sight with him.

Except it isn't the primary ability. The primary ability is spellcasting. The stare is primarily a debuff so you can hypnotise people easier with your spells.

Dark Archive

JiCi wrote:

I... think you got that backward...

The Alchemist can throw bombs, injects himself with mutagens, brew potions and casts "spells".

The Mesmerist... can only stare, either at a target or an ally. That's it...

And do Tricks. And cast spells. And there's that Touch Treatment thing, but I don't think that counts to the same level (although it's up there with 'can brew potions' I guess). So it's pretty much the same as the Alchemist, in different 'things' it can do. But, like the Alchemist, it can only do one at a time, generally, and the abilities don't always synergize all that well.

That's what I meant there, that just as the Alchemist has some Archetypes that focus on Mutagens (Beastmorph, Ragechemist) or on Bombing (Grenadier, Goblin Fire Bomber), the Mesmerist could probably use Archetypes that focus on Tricks or on Stare, and develop either of those two class abilities out a bit more.

That said, I haven't seen the Mesmerist in play yet, and it suggests the possibility that a Mesmerist could be triggering a trick to mirror image an ally, maintaining a debuffing stare *and* casting a spell in the same round. That sort of action economy might well be a saving grace, if it comes together that way (which it likely won't often...).

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Set wrote:


That said, I haven't seen the Mesmerist in play yet, and it suggests the possibility that a Mesmerist could be triggering a trick to mirror image an ally, maintaining a debuffing stare *and* casting a spell in the same round. That sort of action economy might well be a saving grace, if it comes together that way (which it likely won't often...).

Actually, on a well-played Mesmerist this routine of Trick/Stare/Spell should be happening at least 1 round of every combat, unless you're playing something like the Vexing Daredevil archetype, which plays as more of a Swashbuckler/Illusionist mix, in which case it'll be something more like Stare/Trick/Dazzling Feint every round. Mesmerist was probably my least favorite playtest class but became one of my favorite classes in the final release. Vexing Daredevil in particular is my favorite way to play the Mesmerist, giving up Touch Treatment (which is a little bit of an odd ability given the focus of the class' other features anyways) in exchange for a fun combat chassis that helps the Mesmerist's class features synergize really well.

In order of preference, Mesmerist is probably my favorite, then Spiritualist, then probably Kineticist, though Kineticist is probably one I'm less likely to play in high op games like we normally run at home, more of a PFS or one-off kind of class.

On the other classes-

I also get a really strong "psychic investigator" vibe from the Occultist, and I almost would have preferred they didn't give him spell slots at all, if it meant they buffed his relic abilities a bit. The only role he seems able to effectively excel at is "skill-monkey", maybe party buffer, and he lacks the ability of other classes in the same niche, like the Bard and Inquisitor, to specialize and really be good at anything else, though he does have a couple archetypes that I like.

Psychic is... Okay. It's solid, fairly boring, and if it were the first 9th level caster ever made, I'd say it set a great standard. Coming later in the PF game's lifespan as it has, it feels a lot like some of the 3.5 Complete series classes, where they're trying to rebalance things in a way that will never work as long as the new classes are presented as fitting side-by-side with those in the CRB (which don't even play well with each other). Anyways, I really don't have anything bad to say about it, but I'll probably never play it myself, so make of that what you will.

Medium was great during playtest, so I'm not really sure what happened afterwards, but the thing that ultimately got published is something that seems like there's some space between RAI and RAW, and which doesn't appear to be able to live up to its own backstory and hype. I think the best example of this discrepancy I've seen was when it was pointed out that the iconic's story about breaking out of his imprisonment using like 5 different spirits would have taken a week, rather than the daring overnight escape the story implies. While I like that they're trying to clarify the rules on what an "appropriate location" to summon a spirit is and that it should even be possible to create an appropriate location, it feels like too little, too late for this sad little class. Maybe Mark will get a companion line book or something similar where he can reintroduce a Harrow Medium more in line with the playtest version of the class, but for now I just don't see myself using it much.


Ssalarn wrote:
think the best example of this discrepancy I've seen was when it was pointed out that the iconic's story about breaking out of his imprisonment using like 5 different spirits would have taken a week, rather than the daring overnight escape the story implies.

For what it's worth, the Spirit Dancer archetype seems to be much closer to what Mark originally envisioned (he commented to similar effect in another thread). With a modicum of planning, a Spirit Dancer could easily enact Erasmus' daring escape.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Exguardi wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
think the best example of this discrepancy I've seen was when it was pointed out that the iconic's story about breaking out of his imprisonment using like 5 different spirits would have taken a week, rather than the daring overnight escape the story implies.
For what it's worth, the Spirit Dancer archetype seems to be much closer to what Mark originally envisioned (he commented to similar effect in another thread). With a modicum of planning, a Spirit Dancer could easily enact Erasmus' daring escape.

I could make a comment about how it's sad that the iconic character for the class would have to take an archetype to get close to functioning as advertised, but... Well, I guess I just did.

Leave it that I think it's unfortunate that Mark's original design, which I thought was pretty excellent, was butchered into what, in my opinion, is the boring, generic, semi-functional offering that ultimately went to print.


So , how are the spiritualists coming along for you people?

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Nox Aeterna wrote:
So , how are the spiritualists coming along for you people?

Big fan. It and the Mesmerist were my two least favorite classes during the playtest and ended up as my top two favorites in the final version.

I like the idea of using the phantom's incorporeality, mobility, and deliver touch spells options for some very flexible healing/buffing but haven't had much chance to actually try it out.

Scarab Sages

Nox Aeterna wrote:
So , how are the spiritualists coming along for you people?

I've been playing an Ectoplasmatist, which is like a strange marriage of Spiritualist and Magus. Fun, but weird. Also, a level of Swashbuckler seems required.

Dark Archive

Belabras wrote:
Nox Aeterna wrote:
So , how are the spiritualists coming along for you people?
I've been playing an Ectoplasmatist, which is like a strange marriage of Spiritualist and Magus. Fun, but weird. Also, a level of Swashbuckler seems required.

Why Swashbuckler?

Scarab Sages

DragoDorn wrote:
Belabras wrote:
Nox Aeterna wrote:
So , how are the spiritualists coming along for you people?
I've been playing an Ectoplasmatist, which is like a strange marriage of Spiritualist and Magus. Fun, but weird. Also, a level of Swashbuckler seems required.
Why Swashbuckler?

To get Slashing Grace on the Lash


I was reading through the psychic spell list (and not considering class features) and noticed that Psychic magic takes a bit too much from arcane classes. Spells that I'd consider iconic to wizards (Hallucinatory Terrain, Haste, Disguise self, Charm person, Fox's Cunning, even wish) were put into the psychic spell list but there isn't much from divine classes (cure/inflict, reincarnation, resurrection, miracle). I'm even surprised that the cleric doesn't even get possession while wizards do, despite the fact I'd associate ghosts and possession more with divine magic than arcane. I thought that dealing with the astral and ethereal planes would extend to a bit of negative and positive plane energy.

If it weren't for the fact there's no prepared 9 spell level psychic class (which surprises me, I'd love to play as a prepared psychic class), I think psychic classes would be able to replace non blaster sorcerers and witches (which have below average spell lists to begin with) except for a few situations (Bards and Witches because there's no cleric for some reason and a bit of healing is needed). On the other hand, healing, defensive buffs and being able to whack things while casting spells will still be dominated by clerics and druids.

Silver Crusade Contributor

I suspect that wizards get possession because it's meant to replace magic jar for them.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TeCoolMage wrote:
I [...] noticed that Psychic magic takes a bit too much from arcane classes. Spells that I'd consider iconic to wizards (Hallucinatory Terrain, Haste, Disguise self, Charm person, Fox's Cunning, even wish) were put into the psychic spell list but there isn't much from divine classes (cure/inflict, reincarnation, resurrection, miracle).

I would argue that Transmutation, Illusion and Enchantment very much fit the "my mind alters your reality" aspects of the Psychic- nothing particularly "iconic to wizards" about that, once you've decided psychic magic exists in your setting.

Now, the lack of healing and mucking about with resurrection and reincarnation is a MITE odd, taken as a thematic whole, but if you consider the Psychic as a small subset of what can be done with mind over matter, it's just a question of focus.


I've been looking for a proper place to ask this question, so I guess this place is as good as any other:

Does anyone know of a "Occult Adventures" version of the Mothman out there anywhere? I could have sworn I saw it in one of the Bestiaries, but no luck (maybe it was in a 3rd party product).

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