Immediate Actions: When can they be used?

[tivadar27]

So for generic immediate actions (ones that don't specify "after an attack is made but..." or the like) I've always ruled that you can't interrupt someone's action to use them. However, I've allowed things such as using immediates in response to declaring an action.

So, for example, as a GM I announce that the Rita attacks Fred. Fred then uses the Ride (Cover) option to drop behind his mount, and I allow this. Rita begins her attack, rolls a 16, and then Fred tries to use the Ride (Cover) option to drop behind his mount, I don't allow this.

I was noticing a new feat in Melee Tactics Toolbox, however:

Arcane Shield:
Benefit: As a immediate action, you can sacrifice a prepared spell or unused spell slot of 1st level or higher and gain a deflection bonus to AC equal to the level of the spell or spell slot you sacrificed for 1 round. 0-level spells may not be sacrificed in this manner.

Reactive Arcane Shield:
Benefit: If you are aware of an attack against you that has already been declared and you choose to use the Arcane Shield feat, the immediate action to activate the feat occurs before the attack roll against you is resolved. In addition, all adjacent allies also gain the feat's deflection bonus to AC for 1 round.

These Feats and the wording would seem to suggest that someone can't use an immediate in response to an attack (unless, of course, it explicitly says otherwise). Does anyone know if there's been clarification on this? I assume "attack against you that has already been declared" doesn't imply after an attack roll is made...

[thorin001]

You can use them any time you could use a free action, and on other peoples' turns. Since free actions can explicitly be used in the middle of other actions, reload or quick draw in the middle of a full attack action for example, so can immediate actions.

[Grey_Mage]

Immediate are not free actions, they are a swift action that can be used out of turn including to interrupt. In this instance, yes you can use it, but it uses the next turns swift action.

Oh, and the wording for mounted combat allows you to negate a hit on the mount as an immediate action (ie after the dice roll) so there is precedence.

[thorin001]

Immediate actions are a subset of swift actions. Swift actions are a subset of free actions. So Immediate actions are in fact a type of free action.

[tivadar27]

So first, I'm going to start to use the word "event" rather than "action". I consider an "event" one thing happening. For example, a full attack is an action that has multiple events (attacks) that occur as part of it.

I'm aware of immediates = swift = free, but note, the quoted rules seem to disagree with your interpretation, and suggest immediate actions (and perhaps free actions?), by default, can only be used between other events.

Also, consider there's nothing in the rules to suggest you can use a free action in the middle of an event. Reloading and drawing a weapon typically occur between individual attacks. Also, for example, I think most people wouldn't allow you to use Arcane Strike after you had rolled your attack roll but before damage, even though it's a swift action.

[Komoda]

When did swift actions become a subset of anything? All action types in my Core Rulebook all have the same heading style and spacing. There is no "Sub" anything.

Immediate actions are also not swift actions. They are their own action that take up a swift action.

Full actions are not subsets of move actions just because a full action takes up your ability to use a move action.

Paizo has constantly failed to clarify exactly how interrupts happen within the game. There are a few examples that give different procedures. None are 100% clear.

I don't have the source for the feats that you have listed. I imagine it is a chain. If so, I am confused as to why it implies that you can't use Arcane Shield after someone declares an attack, which I guess is what you were getting at.

As to your ride example, I don't really disagree with you, but it really opens up some problems too. If Rita says, "I attack Fred" and rolls, most of the games that I have played in, Rita will roll before Fred even knows he is the target. If you are going to be strict about it, you should force a gap and a clear pass from Fred to take an immediate action to stop it. A lot of this comes down to a good group being able to agree what is normal and OK rather than hard and fast "table rules" like taking your hand off a chess piece.

Now, on a completely different note, these feats provide a Paizo precedence that declaring an action is different than the action itself. This is going to wreak havoc on the other interrupt arguments that "declaring" actions has absolutely no meaning.

[Grey_Mage]

For all practical purposes, Immediate actions are swift actions as they count as a swift action if taken during your turn and next rounds swift if taken outside; but yes immediate actions are technically their own type.

CRB: An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.

For the OP, according to RAW, "at any time" is pretty specific, but it seems a reasonable enough house rule.

[tivadar27]

@Grey_Mage: "At any time" is actually not terribly specific. What constitutes a new unit of time in-game? In practice, we don't allow swift/immediate actions to be used at any point in the game. We have some notion of specific time increments where it's allowed to declare these events, for example, before an attack roll is made through when the damage has been resolved. This may be interpreted differently from group to group, but most still do have some notion of it.

@Komoda: These are from Advanced Players Guide and Melee Tactics Toolbox respectively. I'd agree, they suggest a very different interpretation of when actions are allowed relative to what most use. I'd like to believe it's an error/one-off, but MTT is a very recent publication as well, so that makes it a bit more interesting.

As for the ride example, in most games I play, and all games I GM, I will tell the players that they're being attacked prior to it happening, there are just so many abilities that are expected to be used before an attack roll is made. In cases where they're not aware of the enemy, I don't necessarily tell them where the attack is coming from/what it is, but in most of those, they're flat-footed and can't use an immediate anyways.

[Gauss]

Some rules:

CRB p188 wrote:

Swift Actions

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.

So, those people stating that you can take a swift action anytime you can take a Free action are correct.

CRB p189 wrote:

Immediate Actions

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it’s not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

Immediate actions are effectively interrupts. They happen immediately, before anything else is resolved. However, the immediate action determines at what point things can be interrupted. It is pointless to interrupt an attack to add AC AFTER the attack is resolved.

In the OP's case, your player should have declared he is using the cover option before the dice are rolled (or the results are revealed). Afterwards the attack roll is made and the results are revealed. However, there are some specific immediate actions that do allow you to see the results and then declare the immediate action.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Ninja'd by Gauss.

But he's right. A Free Action takes effectively no time at all, and can be used in between (or during) other actions. A Swift Action can be taken any time you can take a Free Action. An Immediate Action is much like a Swift Action, except it can be performed at any time, even outside your turn.

The last line alone will tell you that your PC is allowed to use his Immediate Action to make the Ride check before the attack result is revealed, so as to alter the results. But once the results are resolved, his Immediate Action ability will do nothing. There is also the corollary of Immediate Action -> Swift Action -> Free Action -> Taken between and/or during other Actions that is spelled out amongst the given rules, showing a double-ended precedent (that is, there are two rules-wise ways that demonstrate this fact).

In regards to Arcane Shield, my theory is the person who wrote those feats didn't have a clear understanding of how Immediate Actions worked. It makes no sense to have the base feat already do a lot of what the subsequent feat in the chain already does. The only difference between the two feats is one allows the AC bonus to apply to adjacent allies as well; stating that the subsequent feat allows you to do something that the original feat already does makes zero sense, and is a waste of space.

So, technically there are two theories as to why those feats are the way they are. The first is as I've said; the developer behind that feat chain didn't know how Immediate Actions worked. The second is that the ability is supposed to work on attacks you're unaware of, which could actually make sense. However, a lot of GMs would just handwave it as a Flat-Footed condition, and that doesn't negate the ability to use Immediate Actions.

Besides those points, the second feat has excess (and contradictory) text, which calls for errata.

[Grey_Mage]

What constitutes a new unit of time in-game? The next round. Everything else is a local creation because the initiative is an abstraction of events all happening within 6 seconds.

A wizard is casting Create Pit. I ID the spell and cast Featherfall as an immediate action and float down harmlessly.

Same scenario: But I cast FF after the pit is created (the attack is made) but before damage is rolled. Same end effect.

Same Scenario: After the GM announces "you fall 50' and then I roll for 27 HP of damage". The player then announces "I cast FF". Good to know for next round in case you fall in another one, you took 27 points of damage.

In your case an AC buff (cover) is being applied after the attack roll. As an interrupt/immediate I feel this is okay so long as it happens before the result is announced. "Oh you hit me by +1 over my AC? I use Ride (cover)" = Umm, No. After the attack happened and the result is announced any actions taken apply to the next attack.

Immediate actions interrupt. That's what they do. Anytime is anytime unless there is text further clarifying the ability, but for what its worth I like the ruling, but I think it should be clarified by home ruling individual abilities rather than creating time abstractions.

[Bryce Kineman]

I Believe the Intent of Reactive Arcane Shield was to be used even if your flat-footed. As normally you could not use and Immediate action if you're flat-footed(save vs Traps, falls, avalanches, cave-ins and stuff not pertaining to combat).
Say you passed your perception check to notice the ambush. That means you know the attacks coming, but are still flat-footed because you rolled low on your initiative to act in the Surprise round. Though this is the only case I could think of that this would apply. If you fail your perception then you can't do anything until you act in regular rounds.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Bryce Kineman wrote:

I Believe the Intent of Reactive Arcane Shield was to be used even if your flat-footed. As normally you could not use and Immediate action if you're flat-footed(save vs Traps, falls, avalanches, cave-ins and stuff not pertaining to combat).

Say you passed your perception check to notice the ambush. That means you know the attacks coming, but are still flat-footed because you rolled low on your initiative to act in the Surprise round. Though this is the only case I could think of that this would apply. If you fail your perception then you can't do anything until you act in regular rounds.

But even if I'm flat-footed, that doesn't mean I can't take actions, much less Immediate Actions.

Here's the Flat-Footed Condition description:

Flat-Footed wrote:

A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat or Uncanny Dodge class ability.

Characters with Uncanny Dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat.

So, there's only maybe one part that can be construed, but that is then properly explained by saying you lose your Dexterity Bonus, and can't make AoOs. No sane GM would rule Flat-Footed to mean you can't take Immediate Actions, and it's certainly not something I've seen a thread about from the result of PFS play.

[Bryce Kineman]

Sorry, I Figured everyone caught on to the Flat-Footed part in Gauss's Post.

CRB p189 wrote:

Immediate Actions

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it’s not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

I get what you're saying but the rules say explicitly that the you cannot use Immediate actions while you are flat-footed. but like I Mentioned before, you can still use Immediate Actions when being attacked by a trap, falling, caught in a avalanche, or land slide, and pretty much anything that doesn't involve Combat.

As what would be the point of feather fall and Emergency Force Sphere.